Author Topic: Disappointed with Caedus (spoilers inside)
Grey1  1710 posts
Registered: Nov '00
8038_Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan
Date Posted: 8/21/08 12:48am Subject: RE: Disappointed with Caedus (spoilers inside)
Could it be that LOTF should actually have ended with a powerful Caedus, but then they decided on another course (for whatever reason)?

Some time ago, there was this theory that Denning's books would all borrow their titles from great works of literature - Tempest and Inferno being the start. Then came Invincible, a title that doesn't really make sense regarding the book, that breaks up the pattern of nouns-for-titles.

Maybe the series started out with Revelation as the final book title (with the bible reference being the "borrowed title"), so that our heroes would only find out in book 9 that Jacen was up to something sithy?

While I'm 100 percent disgusted by the choices made after NJO, I can still admit that having one of the oldest/most fundamental EU characters as a strong recurring villain for several OOU years and maybe several IU decades would have been not only an interesting move, but also one with a perspective for the future.

 

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Katana_Geldar  27709 posts
Title: Former CR Tasmania, AU'
Registered: Mar '03
48693_Elaine (617092)
Date Posted: 8/21/08 6:30am Subject: RE: Disappointed with Caedus (spoilers inside)
You know, I really hate being right sometimes, hardly anyone listened to me after Betrayal came out mischief

Jacen stopped being interesting in DN, period.

 

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Charlemagne19  26812 posts
Registered: Jul '00
6408_Jedi Outcast
Date Posted: 8/21/08 6:33am Subject: RE: Disappointed with Caedus (spoilers inside) - Date Edited: 8/21/08 6:36am (1 edits total) Edited By: Charlemagne19
If anything, the problem is the lack of consistently used next-gen characters.

Because Lowbacca and Tenel Ka are buckets of characterization.

I like them just fine but its sort of like saying Frank and Joe Hardy are deep dramatic characters.

But yes, for me, I was actually counting the days til Jacen Solo was dealt with in a permanent manner because each book was yet another example of him being an incompetent and shallow two dimensional villain. We never get a decent reason why he chose to fall to the Dark Side or why he felt that the Corellian Crisis was such a galaxy shattering event that he had to turn to the powers of evil.

There was no characterization for Jacen either. He turned against his family utterly and completely with no hesitation, which made him dramatically less interesting. Worse, we never actually even got to hear a coherent plan for Galactic Conquest from Jacen. There was no "cool" factor with armor, new weapons, or soldiers either.

In other words, he sucked on nearly every concievable level.

 

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Robimus  3654 posts
Registered: Jul '07
13691_HK-47
Date Posted: 8/21/08 6:39am Subject: RE: Disappointed with Caedus (spoilers inside)
I simply wish that Delrey would have taken the plunge and stuck with it for a while. Gonna make Jacen Solo a villian, OK, I'll get used to it. It was the way Darth Caedus was portrayed and then discarded like a villian of the week that was the big issue. He should have lived beyong LOTF and been a thorn in the heroes side for many years.

Instead he got a few months as a villian and then nothing. And if they were not going to keep Caedus, Delrey should have considered allowing Alema or Lumiya to survive. Some character of interest with a grudge against our heroes.

Oh, well. Maybe they'll bring back Nom Anor tongue

 

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Katana_Geldar  27709 posts
Title: Former CR Tasmania, AU'
Registered: Mar '03
48693_Elaine (617092)
Date Posted: 8/21/08 6:56am Subject: RE: Disappointed with Caedus (spoilers inside)
praying

Here's hoping! At least he never worried about any justification

 

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Darthbane2007  1373 posts
Registered: Oct '07
13725_Lando and Han
Date Posted: 8/21/08 9:34am Subject: RE: Disappointed with Caedus (spoilers inside) - Date Edited: 8/21/08 9:36am (1 edits total) Edited By: Darthbane2007
I'm sorry, but I still don't see Caedus work as a Sith Lord. He hasn't done any sort of act in my eyes that would make you say " Wow, he's a Sith."

It would have been better had he become some sort of dark jedi after his bout with the Yuuzhan Vong, doing some evil deeds, further distancing himself from his family and fellow Jedi. Then maybe when the time came for him to become a sith, it wouldn't have felt so rushed.

 

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Ulicus  7359 posts
Registered: Jul '05
41990_Duron Qel-Droma
Date Posted: 8/21/08 10:13am Subject: RE: Disappointed with Caedus (spoilers inside)
Katana_Geldar posted:
Jacen stopped being interesting in DN, period.

Eh? No. Whilst I hated the way TDN bastardised what Vergere actually said and seemed to forget everything Luke said at the end of TUF, Jacen himself was incredibly interesting (even though he was very different from the man he was at the end of the NJO), and one of the reasons I got so psyched for LotF.

Still... I seriously wouldn't be surprised to see Jacen return, and for them to sweep Caedus under the rug as some replicant who replaced him between the NJO and TDN. tongue

 

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NelanisGhost  2169 posts
Registered: Jun '06
14535_Yuuzhan Vong High Priestess
Date Posted: 8/21/08 10:21am Subject: RE: Disappointed with Caedus (spoilers inside)
Maybe my expectations were too high, but I was ready for a Palpatine caliber villain that would really test the resolve of the council and take it to the limit. As for the writing of Darth Caedus, I'm just disappointed. The battles, the usage of battle meditation, Caedus' use of pain, the show of his "mastery" of the force, everything.

I thought it was sort of amusing that Mara accused Jacen of being worse than Palpatine. Perhaps it had to do with his extreme predjudice used against her? She never said Palps was that bad before, she always sort of praised him. Ironies......

 

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Jedimarine  4888 posts
Registered: Feb '01
48815_11 - Crimson Empire
Date Posted: 8/21/08 10:22am Subject: RE: Disappointed with Caedus (spoilers inside)
Ulicus posted:
Katana_Geldar posted:
Jacen stopped being interesting in DN, period.

Eh? No. Whilst I hated the way TDN bastardised what Vergere actually said and seemed to forget everything Luke said at the end of TUF, Jacen himself was incredibly interesting (even though he was very different from the man he was at the end of the NJO), and one of the reasons I got so psyched for LotF.

Still... I seriously wouldn't be surprised to see Jacen return, and for them to sweep Caedus under the rug as some replicant who replaced him between the NJO and TDN. tongue


I think I would love that idea...but hate them all the more for using it.

In universe, it would be a great save...out of universe, it's the ultimate "we goofed! Sorry. Will you believe this now?"

 

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Rouge77  7450 posts
Registered: May '05
6464_Anakin Solo
Date Posted: 8/21/08 10:23am Subject: RE: Disappointed with Caedus (spoilers inside)
Ulicus posted:
Still... I seriously wouldn't be surprised to see Jacen return, and for them to sweep Caedus under the rug as some replicant who replaced him between the NJO and TDN. tongue


I can't see that happening - even when I would prefer it to the current situation - as DR doesn't act like that. They might try to develop some other character to resemble Jacen like they did with Anakin Solo and the annoying Skywalker brat.

There's Allana as an obvious victim for this - Fury description of her by Leia could be seen as a first possible stage in this transformation of hers' from a little version of Tenel Ka to a little bigger mini-Jacen - but then the IKs have a very similar view to that which Jacen held in DN, and Jaina started herself to take this path in LotF, so in a fine DR mess Jaina in the future could end up resembling DN-Jacen when it comes to her beliefs about the Force etc. That's how I expect them to correct LotF damage, if they bother to try to repair it at all.

 

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marmkid  2399 posts
Registered: Apr '01
Date Posted: 8/21/08 10:33am Subject: RE: Disappointed with Caedus (spoilers inside)
Darthbane2007 posted:
I'm sorry, but I still don't see Caedus work as a Sith Lord. He hasn't done any sort of act in my eyes that would make you say " Wow, he's a Sith."

It would have been better had he become some sort of dark jedi after his bout with the Yuuzhan Vong, doing some evil deeds, further distancing himself from his family and fellow Jedi. Then maybe when the time came for him to become a sith, it wouldn't have felt so rushed.




he murdered Nelani, a fellow jedi, in cold blood, just to hear more of what Lumiya has to say
he murdered Mara, a jedi master and his aunt

those are pretty evil
i wish he would have killed mara more convincingly though
that would have made it more Sith-like
the way it was written was that it was almost all Mara instigating the entire thing and Jacen was only defending himself

i think Caedus could have worked as a Sith
but they chickened out on too many things with the entire story
they seemed afraid to make him too bad
and they couldnt even let him kill an established charactor without making it feel cheap almost

 

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Whizkid  1202 posts
Registered: Sep '03
24189_Palpatine
Date Posted: 8/21/08 10:39am Subject: RE: Disappointed with Caedus (spoilers inside)
Charlemagne19 posted:
If anything, the problem is the lack of consistently used next-gen characters.

Because Lowbacca and Tenel Ka are buckets of characterization.

I like them just fine but its sort of like saying Frank and Joe Hardy are deep dramatic characters.

But yes, for me, I was actually counting the days til Jacen Solo was dealt with in a permanent manner because each book was yet another example of him being an incompetent and shallow two dimensional villain. We never get a decent reason why he chose to fall to the Dark Side or why he felt that the Corellian Crisis was such a galaxy shattering event that he had to turn to the powers of evil.

There was no characterization for Jacen either. He turned against his family utterly and completely with no hesitation, which made him dramatically less interesting. Worse, we never actually even got to hear a coherent plan for Galactic Conquest from Jacen. There was no "cool" factor with armor, new weapons, or soldiers either.

In other words, he sucked on nearly every concievable level.


You're either intentionally dumbing down what transpired in LotF or didn't read it. Jacen believed a strong leader was needed to stop the near perpetual violence that has engulfed the GFFA, someone who was above petty nepotism and looking out for family first. For me, the fact he turned against his family MADE him interesting. His plan wasn't one of galactic conquest. He wanted to end galaxy wide war. He reminded me very much of a Woodrow Wilson "make the world safe for democracy" type leader. He was neither a Palpatine or a Vader; he was very much his own character. Obviously I believe he was wrong as war can never be ended by a single person, but his fundamental motivation was unique for SW and that was what made him interesting.

 

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GoA  335 posts
Registered: Dec '07
41206_Anakin Skywalker
Date Posted: 8/21/08 10:48am Subject: RE: Disappointed with Caedus (spoilers inside)
The Jacen Solo of Betrayal was well on his way to becoming an awesome bad guy, that could easily have remained in power and kept the stories interesting long past LotF.

Unfortunately, whether due to horrible planning, or just a plain lack of foresight on the part of the authors/editorial team, they turned that Jacen Solo into the rambling, tirade-driven cartoon B-villain we got the rest of the way (until Invincible, when he returned to cool, but by then it was too late, since it was obvious he was going to die).

 

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NelanisGhost  2169 posts
Registered: Jun '06
14535_Yuuzhan Vong High Priestess
Date Posted: 8/21/08 10:54am Subject: RE: Disappointed with Caedus (spoilers inside) - Date Edited: 8/21/08 10:58am (1 edits total) Edited By: NelanisGhost
Whizkid posted:
Charlemagne19 posted:
If anything, the problem is the lack of consistently used next-gen characters.

Because Lowbacca and Tenel Ka are buckets of characterization.

I like them just fine but its sort of like saying Frank and Joe Hardy are deep dramatic characters.

But yes, for me, I was actually counting the days til Jacen Solo was dealt with in a permanent manner because each book was yet another example of him being an incompetent and shallow two dimensional villain. We never get a decent reason why he chose to fall to the Dark Side or why he felt that the Corellian Crisis was such a galaxy shattering event that he had to turn to the powers of evil.

There was no characterization for Jacen either. He turned against his family utterly and completely with no hesitation, which made him dramatically less interesting. Worse, we never actually even got to hear a coherent plan for Galactic Conquest from Jacen. There was no "cool" factor with armor, new weapons, or soldiers either.

In other words, he sucked on nearly every concievable level.


You're either intentionally dumbing down what transpired in LotF or didn't read it. Jacen believed a strong leader was needed to stop the near perpetual violence that has engulfed the GFFA, someone who was above petty nepotism and looking out for family first. For me, the fact he turned against his family MADE him interesting. His plan wasn't one of galactic conquest. He wanted to end galaxy wide war. He reminded me very much of a Woodrow Wilson "make the world safe for democracy" type leader. He was neither a Palpatine or a Vader; he was very much his own character. Obviously I believe he was wrong as war can never be ended by a single person, but his fundamental motivation was unique for SW and that was what made him interesting.



Yeah, perpetual violence instigated by LUMIYA. She started the whole thing and he knew it. He's either unbelievably daft or he just wanted to rule. Which is what I think. He just was bored with his silver spoon life. "The World Is Not Enough". He wanted to rule it, not just live as one of it's most priveleged members.

 

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marmkid  2399 posts
Registered: Apr '01
Date Posted: 8/21/08 11:03am Subject: RE: Disappointed with Caedus (spoilers inside)
NelanisGhost posted:


Yeah, perpetual violence instigated by LUMIYA. She started the whole thing and he knew it. He's either unbelievably daft or he just wanted to rule. Which is what I think. He just was bored with his silver spoon life. "The World Is Not Enough". He wanted to rule it, not just live as one of it's most priveleged members.


i'm not sure i remember anything indicating he was just bored with his silver spoon life

what makes you think that?

 

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