NelanisGhost posted:What makes me think that? How about his willingness to kill Nelani for a mere story, in trade? And of course he accepts it as immediate truth without even considering that the Sith witch may be fabricating. It's all too easy. He wanted to be corrupted, he was just biding his time for the opportunity. It wasn't enough to be Luke's heir apparent, adored by all, with the potential to be one of the greatest. He choose petty tyranny instead. The easy way. Spending five years wandering around, acting like a jerk to evertone in DNT, self absorption and arrogance. It's all just so mundane to him. He has to go have a secret kid, act all angsty (to me, he was just going through the motions of having real feelings. I never felt he really HAD them) about his so called affair with Tenel Ka, looking down on his parents as trash, though he had all these accolades, primarily because of them. They were real heroes. Jacen was written as a brilliant, talented, anti-social, force gifted young man. In LOTF, it never came off that way. He reminded of a Messiah complexed snob and a whiner.
Charlemagne19 posted:Darth-Ghost posted:The Jacen of INVINCIBLE should have been fully formed in SACRIFICE, or at least INFERNO. It's how they dragged on keeping "Jacen=Caedus=Sith=Mara's Killer" a secret for so long, that dragging out is what really brought LOTF down. For me, Jacen Solo was never credible as Darth Caedus. Because half the time he was incompetent (not accepting surrenders, acting horrendously evil to undermine his position, and screwing up victories) while the other half...he was just outright insane.
Darth-Ghost posted:The Jacen of INVINCIBLE should have been fully formed in SACRIFICE, or at least INFERNO. It's how they dragged on keeping "Jacen=Caedus=Sith=Mara's Killer" a secret for so long, that dragging out is what really brought LOTF down.
Carnage04 posted:This is my biggest issue with him. Awesome displays of force power would be have been okay but it still wouldn't have worked for me without Caedus actually being intelligent and cunning. Instead, he goes out of his way just to blow crap up. "Kashyyk hasn't decided, have they? LET THEM BURN!" "Fondor is waving the white flag? NOT ON MY WATCH! LET THEM BURN!" "There is a pivotal battle going on? Who cares? That's the Falcon! FIRE! LET THEM BURN!"
Rouge77 posted:Carnage04 posted:This is my biggest issue with him. Awesome displays of force power would be have been okay but it still wouldn't have worked for me without Caedus actually being intelligent and cunning. Instead, he goes out of his way just to blow crap up. "Kashyyk hasn't decided, have they? LET THEM BURN!" "Fondor is waving the white flag? NOT ON MY WATCH! LET THEM BURN!" "There is a pivotal battle going on? Who cares? That's the Falcon! FIRE! LET THEM BURN!" The authors were perhaps afraid that readers would like Caedus' actions and so wanted to make sure that the readers understood that Sith = evil and bad. The problem with this being that for Caedus to work as a villain people would have to like him. Not what he did, but him as a character. Making him to be insane and do evil things on a large scale basically without any kind of good reason worked against this. Considering how ambiguous things were otherwise left, here they should not have been so eager to draw the line between dark and light in my opinion.
NelanisGhost posted:Whizkid posted:Charlemagne19 posted:If anything, the problem is the lack of consistently used next-gen characters. Because Lowbacca and Tenel Ka are buckets of characterization. I like them just fine but its sort of like saying Frank and Joe Hardy are deep dramatic characters. But yes, for me, I was actually counting the days til Jacen Solo was dealt with in a permanent manner because each book was yet another example of him being an incompetent and shallow two dimensional villain. We never get a decent reason why he chose to fall to the Dark Side or why he felt that the Corellian Crisis was such a galaxy shattering event that he had to turn to the powers of evil. There was no characterization for Jacen either. He turned against his family utterly and completely with no hesitation, which made him dramatically less interesting. Worse, we never actually even got to hear a coherent plan for Galactic Conquest from Jacen. There was no "cool" factor with armor, new weapons, or soldiers either. In other words, he sucked on nearly every concievable level. You're either intentionally dumbing down what transpired in LotF or didn't read it. Jacen believed a strong leader was needed to stop the near perpetual violence that has engulfed the GFFA, someone who was above petty nepotism and looking out for family first. For me, the fact he turned against his family MADE him interesting. His plan wasn't one of galactic conquest. He wanted to end galaxy wide war. He reminded me very much of a Woodrow Wilson "make the world safe for democracy" type leader. He was neither a Palpatine or a Vader; he was very much his own character. Obviously I believe he was wrong as war can never be ended by a single person, but his fundamental motivation was unique for SW and that was what made him interesting. Yeah, perpetual violence instigated by LUMIYA. She started the whole thing and he knew it. He's either unbelievably daft or he just wanted to rule. Which is what I think. He just was bored with his silver spoon life. "The World Is Not Enough". He wanted to rule it, not just live as one of it's most priveleged members.
Whizkid posted:Charlemagne19 posted:If anything, the problem is the lack of consistently used next-gen characters. Because Lowbacca and Tenel Ka are buckets of characterization. I like them just fine but its sort of like saying Frank and Joe Hardy are deep dramatic characters. But yes, for me, I was actually counting the days til Jacen Solo was dealt with in a permanent manner because each book was yet another example of him being an incompetent and shallow two dimensional villain. We never get a decent reason why he chose to fall to the Dark Side or why he felt that the Corellian Crisis was such a galaxy shattering event that he had to turn to the powers of evil. There was no characterization for Jacen either. He turned against his family utterly and completely with no hesitation, which made him dramatically less interesting. Worse, we never actually even got to hear a coherent plan for Galactic Conquest from Jacen. There was no "cool" factor with armor, new weapons, or soldiers either. In other words, he sucked on nearly every concievable level. You're either intentionally dumbing down what transpired in LotF or didn't read it. Jacen believed a strong leader was needed to stop the near perpetual violence that has engulfed the GFFA, someone who was above petty nepotism and looking out for family first. For me, the fact he turned against his family MADE him interesting. His plan wasn't one of galactic conquest. He wanted to end galaxy wide war. He reminded me very much of a Woodrow Wilson "make the world safe for democracy" type leader. He was neither a Palpatine or a Vader; he was very much his own character. Obviously I believe he was wrong as war can never be ended by a single person, but his fundamental motivation was unique for SW and that was what made him interesting.
Charlemagne19 posted:If anything, the problem is the lack of consistently used next-gen characters. Because Lowbacca and Tenel Ka are buckets of characterization. I like them just fine but its sort of like saying Frank and Joe Hardy are deep dramatic characters. But yes, for me, I was actually counting the days til Jacen Solo was dealt with in a permanent manner because each book was yet another example of him being an incompetent and shallow two dimensional villain. We never get a decent reason why he chose to fall to the Dark Side or why he felt that the Corellian Crisis was such a galaxy shattering event that he had to turn to the powers of evil. There was no characterization for Jacen either. He turned against his family utterly and completely with no hesitation, which made him dramatically less interesting. Worse, we never actually even got to hear a coherent plan for Galactic Conquest from Jacen. There was no "cool" factor with armor, new weapons, or soldiers either. In other words, he sucked on nearly every concievable level.
Whizkid posted:Again, he was not just looking at the Corellian problem. His whole life was conflict, be it when he was young and the Galactic Civil War was still raging, when he was a teen and the YV invaded, as a prisoner of a insane force user, etc. He, like many real life leaders, believed he could end war through one last war. He is a completely realistic character.
Charlemagne19 posted:BROWNHORNET posted: I think the issue a lot of times with him was telling instead of showing. The book cover blurbs and many of the characters told us how dangerous Caedus was, but we rarely ever saw it. Kyle Katarn should've died by Caedus's hand. Perhaps some of the other well known Jedi too. I think it's time to move some of those guys off the stage and prepare for Jaina and then Ben's generation of Jedi to step forward. Caedus could've been a great instrument to do that while also upping his cred. The problem with this argument is that it consistently argues that Ben, Jaina, and Jacen are being held back by the Old Generation. I argue, instead, they're just not as interesting.
BROWNHORNET posted: I think the issue a lot of times with him was telling instead of showing. The book cover blurbs and many of the characters told us how dangerous Caedus was, but we rarely ever saw it. Kyle Katarn should've died by Caedus's hand. Perhaps some of the other well known Jedi too. I think it's time to move some of those guys off the stage and prepare for Jaina and then Ben's generation of Jedi to step forward. Caedus could've been a great instrument to do that while also upping his cred.
Charlemagne19 posted:Whizkid posted:Again, he was not just looking at the Corellian problem. His whole life was conflict, be it when he was young and the Galactic Civil War was still raging, when he was a teen and the YV invaded, as a prisoner of a insane force user, etc. He, like many real life leaders, believed he could end war through one last war. He is a completely realistic character. And given his upbringing and his teachings, I find it unbelievable. Also, that this war would be the snapping one.
Darthbane2007 posted:I'm sorry, but I still don't see Caedus work as a Sith Lord. He hasn't done any sort of act in my eyes that would make you say " Wow, he's a Sith." It would have been better had he become some sort of dark jedi after his bout with the Yuuzhan Vong, doing some evil deeds, further distancing himself from his family and fellow Jedi. Then maybe when the time came for him to become a sith, it wouldn't have felt so rushed.
BROWNHORNET posted:Darthbane2007 posted:I'm sorry, but I still don't see Caedus work as a Sith Lord. He hasn't done any sort of act in my eyes that would make you say " Wow, he's a Sith." It would have been better had he become some sort of dark jedi after his bout with the Yuuzhan Vong, doing some evil deeds, further distancing himself from his family and fellow Jedi. Then maybe when the time came for him to become a sith, it wouldn't have felt so rushed. I agree with you to some extent. I think the writers erred in not starting him out as a Sith apprentice in either DN or LOTF. There were a lot of gaps between NJO/DN and then DN/LOTF for Jacen to fall to the dark side. I don't think we necessarily needed to see it. It might've added a little bit more mystery anyway. And if he had been a Sith for a while, his rapid fall wouldn't have seemed like such a waste.
JaySkywalker01 posted:BROWNHORNET posted:Darthbane2007 posted:I'm sorry, but I still don't see Caedus work as a Sith Lord. He hasn't done any sort of act in my eyes that would make you say " Wow, he's a Sith." It would have been better had he become some sort of dark jedi after his bout with the Yuuzhan Vong, doing some evil deeds, further distancing himself from his family and fellow Jedi. Then maybe when the time came for him to become a sith, it wouldn't have felt so rushed. I agree with you to some extent. I think the writers erred in not starting him out as a Sith apprentice in either DN or LOTF. There were a lot of gaps between NJO/DN and then DN/LOTF for Jacen to fall to the dark side. I don't think we necessarily needed to see it. It might've added a little bit more mystery anyway. And if he had been a Sith for a while, his rapid fall wouldn't have seemed like such a waste. I cannot imagine the outcry if the hero of the NJO who found oneness with the Force just showed up as becoming a Sith Lord off page with no explanation.