Jedi Council Forums - Political History Class --- A Classist Interpretation of Star Wars

Locked Topic | Read Only Topic | Previous Active Topic | Next Active Topic

Pages: 1 | 2 - ~~Previous~~ | Next | Reload

Author	Topic: Political History Class --- A Classist Interpretation of Star Wars
Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 9/1/08 7:16pm Subject: Political History Class --- A Classist Interpretation of Star Wars - Date Edited: 9/1/08 7:18pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Charlemagne19
	We had a very interesting thread about Poor vs. Rich heroes but I'd like to broaden the topic a bit and start it on somewhat firmer ground than where it was. This thread will instead talk about the role of Class and Economic Conflict as an Underlying theme of the Star Wars EU. I think that class plays an important role in helping determine what characters reactions in the setting are to materials and where the focus of them are. While the heroes of the setting are Lower-Class Rebels that are struggling against an Authoritarian Empire, the bases are going to be all Wilderness and Low-Class places where our heroes must fear the Empire and the High Class Aristocratic Empire. Han Solo is based in places like Nar Shadda as well. However, when Leia and everyone takes over the Republic, Coruscant becomes the headquarters of our heroes. This has a strong effect as it is a BIZARRE and CRAZY effect to have the idea of anyone named Solo attempting to defend Coruscant against the rest of the Galaxy. Because Coruscant is the home of the Empire, it's a place of evil from a Classicist Interpretation of Star Wars. I'd like to differentiate from a classist worldview in the real world from a classist interpretation of Star Wars. King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table is an extraordinarily classist work. So is Robin of Sherwood. Robin of Sherwood is a great BBC series which has Neo-Pagan elements but one of the strongest running themes (at least til the second season) is that Robin is a Saxon Commoner set against the Norman Aristocracy. Someone who claims that there's not extraordinary power in rooting for the Underdog, in this case the Saxon Outlaws, against the powerful and privileged Norman Overclass. The television show doesn't take the idea that the Normans are innately evil. The second season has Jason Connery assuming the role of Robin Hood, who is a Norman Aristocrat. However, the show only really becomes good when Jason Connery's Robin Hood forsakes his privilege and life of leisure to defend the Norman Peasantry. Now, if the story was about an Elite Norman Aristocrat defending the foolish peasantry, then you have essentially Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves where he's Robin of Locksley, the Earl who is assuming his natural place as an Aristocrat leader of men that require leadership (predominately peasantry). I think something definitely could have been done with the Rebel Alliance being a body of Outer Rim and other disadvantaged individuals leading a transfer of power from a concentrated Core based organized body to something that is difused. In other words, Equality and Fraternity. A Very American (and French) Revolutionary Idea. However, the EU went with the very anti-ethical idea that the Rebels just became another Core establishment. This actually may be something that's against the running theme of George Lucas' intent because instead of diminishing the role of Classicism in Star Wars, the Prequels by George Lucas transformed the subtext of the stories into main text. The fundamental conflict of the Clone Wars is not Man vs. Clone or Clone vs. Machine. It's a purely economic driven war where a Capitalist Oligarchy in the Purest Sense attempts secession from a organized Democracy (by the people, for the people) in order to preserve it's financial privileges for itself. There's also some strong arguments by Dooku that Laissez-faire capitalism is fundamentally something that is anti-democracy. Padme, the theoretical voice for Democracy, states that government by business is anti-ethical to it. Bizarrely, Palpatine is not placed in power by Big Business. Instead, he loots Big Business and turns them into scapegoats for the Masses and Enemies in order to win popularity. Yet, after his arising to power, Palpatine immediately starts befriending them as well. George Lucas made an interesting point in the Star Wars radio dramas that the Empire is confiscating businesses. This may reflect George Lucas opinion that there's a Pendulum swinging here. Unchecked Capitalism (Evil) vs. Republicanism/Democracy (Good) vs. Authoritarian Controlled Economy (Evil) The role of the Jedi Knights, perhaps ostensibly representing religion, may also be noteworthy. The Jedi Knights are not corrupt, despite Karen Traviss' having Daala and Pellaeon assert they are. Outsiders certainly view the Jedi Knights as beholden to the establishment. However, the Bantam and NJO books certainly reflect the Jedi Knights as enemies of the establishment as often as they serve it. Leia, a Jedi in everything but name, repeatedly is nearly brought down by her determination to do the right thing at all costs. Also, the Dark Times and Rebellion series reflects the role as the Jedi Knights as Rebels. Only in the Old Republic era are they symbols of establishment. Yet, the Jedi Apprentice series starring Obi Wan and Qui Gon at the worst of the series, reflects the Jedi Knights as often being enemies of tyrants. Obi Wan and Anakin overthrow several dictators during their careers including Xanatos (an embodiment of corporate nationalism and a fallen Jedi) and at least one Baptista influenced warlord. The first Jedi Quest book shows Obi Wan attempting to liberate slaves by not only destroying the slaver himself but setting up a profitable business structure to secure the economic future of the slaves themselves. Thus, the Jedi effectively become an awkward group because they are beholden to no immediate economic power but their own conscience/The Force. This makes them a constant danger to every side since the laws of government are not set up to deal with idealists to a large extent in the Star Wars EU.
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Vrook_Lamar Registered: May '08	Date Posted: 9/2/08 4:01am Subject: RE: Political History Class --- A Classist Interpretation of Star Wars - Date Edited: 9/2/08 4:05am (2 edits total) Edited By: Vrook_Lamar
	Charlemagne19 posted: Bizarrely, Palpatine is not placed in power by Big Business. Instead, he loots Big Business and turns them into scapegoats for the Masses and Enemies in order to win popularity. Yet, after his arising to power, Palpatine immediately starts befriending them as well. George Lucas made an interesting point in the Star Wars radio dramas that the Empire is confiscating businesses. This may reflect George Lucas opinion that there's a Pendulum swinging here. I think the main point about Palpatine is that he has no morals. Therefore him doing a double turn and accepting big business now that he no longer has a need for a scapegoat is just an example of his utter lack of belief in the values he claimed to have in order to get him into power. Palpatine changing who he associates with is similar to how Stalin got into power. He destroyed the half of the government who believed in communism in one country by allying with the half who believed in permanent revolution and then changed sides to support communism in one country and got rid of his former allies who had believed in permanent revolution. Aside from his power grabbing and buffer states, Stalin probably did actually favour communism in one country, Palpatine however is Stalin distilled into a decaying black robed lightning throwing maniac who only cares about power and ideologies are just things to trick other people with. Palpatine is upper class (which is one reason why he's closer to Julius Caesar than to Hitler and Stalin) and creates a government that oppresses the lower classes. However what the expanded universe tells us about Sith philosophy is that they believe that the strong have a right to any power they can take for themselves. Therefore it may just be that he wants a minority to rule over the majority and doesn't actually care who that minority is as long as they have the strength to keep their positions. Darth Vadar's minion slaughtering makes it clear that people who aren't capable of forcing others to submit to them have no right to be in positions of power. Palpatine isn't really any struggle, he's the evil who takes advantage of the struggles of otheres. He's not a cause, he's the inherent danger that a good cause can fall under the control of an evil individual. That's why you can't associate him purely with any one dictator. He's not a metaphore for Hitler because he doesn't really believe in National Socialism, he's not a metaphore for Stalin because Stalin didn't seize power from a democracy. He's the archetype of the dictator as a backstabbing individual rather than as the figure head of a cause. I was reading "The Hero with a Thousand Faces" yesturday and Joseph Cambell's analysis of the myths about King Minos and Theseus talks about the hero having to destroy the corrupt king in order to "defeat death" by allowing a new uncorrupt nation to be born. In Greek mythology it's the ancient Minoan civilisation being replaced by the up and coming Helenic civilisation rather than a renewed and purified Minoan civilisation. If you intepret Star Wars from this perspective then the Galactic Republic is at the end of its natural life and the Empire is just the Galactic Republic taking a villainous form so that it can be destroyed by the hero in order to give birth to a new civilisation. Camblell is clear that new things have to be replaced by old things, not because the new things are better but because they're new and that a society that tries to revitalise itself by returning to a past age is doomed to failure. If you think that Lucas is following Cambell exactly then having a New Rebublic that's just a copy of the Old Republic is betraying his vision of what Luke Skywalker was supposed to have accomplised.
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Rouge77 Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 9/2/08 5:24am Subject: RE: Political History Class --- A Classist Interpretation of Star Wars - Date Edited: 9/2/08 5:43am (4 edits total) Edited By: Rouge77
	I think that OR, NR and GA are all states where most of the population has no power but perhaps some rights. They are run by the elite for the elite and protected by the sworn protectors of the status quo, the Jedi Knights. They are the kind of aristocratic republics of which the Whig politicos often dreamed about. The majority is silent, leaving their "betters" to rule the state as they wish. In OR, NR or GA the ordinary woman and man has no power, no role in society except that of the servant and cannon fodder. There are no real political parties that would represent them, there are almost no non-governmental organizations, no labour unions, nothing that would give them voice. These republics are conservative paradises, as there is no change in them, no attempt to create more inclusive society, to get rid of the slums and undercitys, to give voice to the majority of the people. There is no progress when it comes to the main galactic society - or it's most important planet. We can assume that Coruscant after becoming a planet-wide city 100 000 years ago has been pretty much the same, economically, politically and socially. When it gets damaged in war, it gets rebuild as the same, with slums included. Same holds true of the galactic republic itself. After falling - or nearly falling, like in the New Sith Wars - it's always lovingly resurrected as the same, without any attempt made to create a better society. No, the same society is created again and again. The republic ruled by aristocracy, big business and seemingly hereditary political class - which often overlap. One can claim that the ordinary folk are not really members of OR, NR, GA. In the same manner that in 18th and early 19th century you were a member of a society only if you had property, a stake in it. When "people" meant those who were at least comfortably middle class. As a good example, the only way a non- Force sensitive person can rise significantly socially is either through service in military during turbulent times or through life of crime, becoming a crime boss and then being able to move to legal business after having created a fortune through criminal activities. OR Jedi were themselves structured in the manner of the divided society whose protectors they were. At the top were the Jedi Knights proper, the military diplomats, the aristocracy of the Order. In less exalted, but still important positions were the non-agricultural specialists, the healers, the librarians, the explorers etc. They could be viewed as the bourgeois of the Jedi Order; they were needed for their special skills, were considered to hold some importance because of this, but not really equal in importance to the Jedi Knights proper. At the bottom were the members of the Agro-corps, the worker class of the Jedi Order, and ending among their ranks was a sign of failure, a view which the Jedi Order did little to diminish. The Agro-corps were not really seen as real Jedi at all, but as a large fringe group like the ordinary folks that served in medieval monasteries doing all the hard work so that the aristocratic monks could concentrate on saving their own souls and those of the benefactors of the monastery. The Sith Empires are on the other hand absolutist monarchies, where the elite of OR, NR and GA are often given officially exalted positions, forming a court around Palpatine and given prominent roles in government and military, but in effect losing much of their power and being like the aristocracy of Ancien Regime France, having been made docile and subservient to the ruler, who is no longer one of them - like the Valorums had been - but above them. -----signature----- Recipient of the Confederation Ewok with "Rebel Yub"® Action!! Kill Ben Skywalker, the new Jar-Jar!
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
goraq Registered: May '08	Date Posted: 9/2/08 6:21am Subject: RE: Political History Class --- A Classist Interpretation of Star Wars
	How is the press in the New Republic? Is it biased over recognition? During the times of the old republic,why is that the jedi hadnt tryed to shut down those those newscompanies wich were lieing to the people? I think they are more then smart enough too know when the press lies. -----signature----- ,,Power is tearing human minds apart and putting them back together in new shapes of your own choosing. ,,
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Sabrajaguar Registered: Dec '01	Date Posted: 9/2/08 7:33am Subject: RE: Political History Class --- A Classist Interpretation of Star Wars
	Hmmmmm Hmmmmm Dont all "Upper class'" opress the lower classes? has anyone heard of the haveshelping the have nots become haves? Besides just throwing money at them? Hell even charitys giveyou great tax returns I hear. As for the social dvelopment of star wars.....well, Besides the Little thing with the Yuzahn vong cast system its has been largely ignored. But then Peter David nor David Weber, two authors who have dealt with such things do ont write Star Wars novels. Or that guy who wrote the "Mars" trilogy. -----signature----- You are no warrior. Warriors win battles without murdering the weak.-Jacen Solo This Jeedai brenzlit slave spit upon your grandfather's bones.-Jacen Solo Don' thinkof it as murder, think of it as blessed release-Jacen Solo
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 9/2/08 7:46am Subject: RE: Political History Class --- A Classist Interpretation of Star Wars
	I think, Rogue77, that I disagree with your interpretation of Star Wars. Largely, because the Galactic Republic has repeatedly been shown to be a functioning democracy prior to the Prequels. Furthermore, the Republic seems less to be by ecumenopolises like Coruscant for places like Coruscant, and more about a vast number of smaller communities that are able to be by themselves for themselves. It's a central conflict that people like Luke Skywalker fight for Jaabim, which only makes their hatred of Jedi all the more ironic.
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Rouge77 Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 9/2/08 7:49am Subject: RE: Political History Class --- A Classist Interpretation of Star Wars - Date Edited: 9/2/08 7:51am (3 edits total) Edited By: Rouge77
	Sabrajaguar posted: Dont all "Upper class'" opress the lower classes? Of course they do. And if they are really cunning, they can make the members of lower classes believe that the system is just, and even meritocratic. Sabrajaguar posted: As for the social dvelopment of star wars.....well, Besides the Little thing with the Yuzahn vong cast system its has been largely ignored. When it comes to that, Denning had a disturbing vignette at the beginning of TJK where he made Tahiri support the members of the warrior class who harassed other YV because they still thought themselves better and didn't want to work. So that progress even among the YV is in danger of being defeated. Sabrajaguar posted: But then Peter David nor David Weber, two authors who have dealt with such things do ont write Star Wars novels. Or that guy who wrote the "Mars" trilogy. Kim Stanley Robinson? He's left-wing for an US author (meaning he's basically centre-right outside US) but I don't remember class issues to have played a big part in those of his novels that I have read - although I haven't read any books from his newest trilogy, the one about climate change. I have to say, it would be interesting to see what Robinson would do with a contract to write a SW novel. -----signature----- Recipient of the Confederation Ewok with "Rebel Yub"® Action!! Kill Ben Skywalker, the new Jar-Jar!
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 9/2/08 7:51am Subject: RE: Political History Class --- A Classist Interpretation of Star Wars
	Star Wars' Wild West feel actually makes the Outer Rim something that I appreciate to some extent because the traditional barriers to building something new for individuals start to cease to exist in the underpopulated regions of said place. Star Wars has become so obsessed with Coruscant recently, we forget that so many planets that have their own representation in the Senate actually have tiny populations about the size of a British house in Parliament.
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Rouge77 Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 9/2/08 7:57am Subject: RE: Political History Class --- A Classist Interpretation of Star Wars - Date Edited: 9/2/08 7:58am (1 edits total) Edited By: Rouge77
	Charlemagne19 posted: Star Wars' Wild West feel actually makes the Outer Rim something that I appreciate to some extent because the traditional barriers to building something new for individuals start to cease to exist in the underpopulated regions of said place. Star Wars has become so obsessed with Coruscant recently, we forget that so many planets that have their own representation in the Senate actually have tiny populations about the size of a British house in Parliament. The Senate system has never really made much sense - at best over a million inhabited planets and just over 2000 senators, some representing just one planet with a small population, others representing entire sectors with huge populations. It reminds me of the British Parliament before the reforms of the 1830's when the rotten boroughs lost their seats and the new industrial towns were given seats. Before that the Parliament was a reactionary roadblock on the way to modern society. -----signature----- Recipient of the Confederation Ewok with "Rebel Yub"® Action!! Kill Ben Skywalker, the new Jar-Jar!
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Rouge77 Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 9/2/08 9:01am Subject: RE: Political History Class --- A Classist Interpretation of Star Wars - Date Edited: 9/2/08 9:05am (3 edits total) Edited By: Rouge77
	Charlemagne19 posted: Largely, because the Galactic Republic has repeatedly been shown to be a functioning democracy prior to the Prequels. A functioning republic run by oligarchy, sure, but shown to be a true democracy? Sadly I can't agree with that. Charlemagne19 posted: It's a central conflict that people like Luke Skywalker fight for Jaabim, which only makes their hatred of Jedi all the more ironic. But the Jabiimi grew to hate the OR because their planet never got any help from OR even when it was a loyal member for a long time. To the Jabiimi the Jedi were the representatives of OR, whose poster boy Anakin Skywalker betrayed the Jabiimi fighting for OR. Luke did try to help the enslaved Jabiimi during GCW, but considering what the survivors had gone through during the previous decades, it is no surprise that in the 40-41 ABY war Jabiim joined again those fighting against Coruscant. Luke himself had become a pillar of establishment by that time, one of the most powerful persons in NR/GA and now had as little regard for the Jabiims of the galaxy as Yoda had had in his time. In EU, one is a radical fighting for the little people only when one is young, and when heroes grow older, they tend to become conservative members of the establishment and see only the big picture of grand galactic politics. -----signature----- Recipient of the Confederation Ewok with "Rebel Yub"® Action!! Kill Ben Skywalker, the new Jar-Jar!
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 9/2/08 9:09am Subject: RE: Political History Class --- A Classist Interpretation of Star Wars - Date Edited: 9/2/08 9:11am (1 edits total) Edited By: Charlemagne19
	Rougue77 posted: A functioning republic run by oligarchy, sure, but shown to be a true democracy? Sadly I can't agree with that. I don't believe that there's an oligarchy given even the most wealth obssessed (The Trade Federation) actively despise the Republic for inhibiting business. The corrupt don't control the Republic, they just control half of it. Why Palpatine is elected as a compromise candidate. Rouge77 posted: But the Jabiimi grew to hate the OR because their planet never got any help from OR even when it was a loyal member for a long time. To the Jabiimi the Jedi were the representatives of OR, whose poster boy Anakin Skywalker betrayed the Jabiimi fighting for OR. Luke did try to help the enslaved Jabiimi during GCW, but considering what the survivors had gone through during the previous decades, it is no surprise that in the 40-41 ABY war Jabiim joined again those fighting against Coruscant. Luke himself had become a pillar of establishment by that time, one of the most powerful persons in NR/GA and now had as little regard for the Jabiims of the galaxy as Yoda had had in his time. In EU, one is a radical fighting for the little people only when one is young, and when heroes grow older, they tend to become conservative members of the establishment. I think that's severely overstating the case. I also think its missing the irony of the Star Wars Battle for Jaabim arc as shown by Anakin Skywalker and later Luke Skywalker. The EU's depiction of the Jedi Knights, with only a few exceptions, shows them to be people genuinely trying to fight for justice across the galaxy in spite of the Bureaucracy that is riddled and hopelessly corrupt. While its an attractive idea to forward your idea that the Jedi defend monarchs like Tenel Ka over the lives of individual citizens, that doesn't seem to be the case except in the sense of the Jedi often trying to stop wars from occurring. Again, Jedi Apprentice shows Jedi routinely going to War Torn planets in order to negotiate peace. The situation on Jaabim also is riddled with ironies. The Jaabim blame Anakin Skywalker for abandoning them. What's wrong with that? The fact that Anakin Skywalker fought and bled for Jaabim with four or five Jedi Padawans dying horribly to single handedly hold off Alto Stratus' force of bad guys before they had to think about the war as a whole. Later, Luke does his best to save the surviving Jaabimese as well. By the time of Legacy of the Force, Luke Skywalker attempts to stop the activation of Death Star capable weapon. The situation fails but as soon as the Republic shows itself to be a tyranny again, Luke Skywalker withdraws the Jedi Order from its service. They transform themselves into Rebels again. Personally, I don't see any real conservative elements of the Establishment as even Corran Horn joins against the GFFA fairly quickly.
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Rouge77 Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 9/2/08 9:28am Subject: RE: Political History Class --- A Classist Interpretation of Star Wars - Date Edited: 9/2/08 9:31am (2 edits total) Edited By: Rouge77
	Charlemagne19 posted: I don't believe that there's an oligarchy given even the most wealth obssessed (The Trade Federation) actively despise the Republic for inhibiting business. The same OR that had given big business an entire sector to freely run as they wished, letting them to oppress the inhabitants without any check to the abuses. Charlemagne19 posted: While its an attractive idea to forward your idea that the Jedi defend monarchs like Tenel Ka over the lives of individual citizens, that doesn't seem to be the case except in the sense of the Jedi often trying to stop wars from occurring. And to keep the aforementioned monarchs in power - or to actively fight to increase the size of the realms of the monarchs, like in the case of Empress Teta. Charlemagne19 posted: The situation on Jaabim also is riddled with ironies. The Jaabim blame Anakin Skywalker for abandoning them. What's wrong with that? Because Anakin betrayed their trust. They had fought for OR against their own kin in a bloody war, and in the end OR ran, evacuated their precious clones and left the Jabiimi loyalists to die. Anakin showed that OR and the Jedi couldn't be trusted. Sure, several young Jedi had died, but the Jabiimi had suffered much greater casualties. Charlemagne19 posted: By the time of Legacy of the Force, Luke Skywalker attempts to stop the activation of Death Star capable weapon. The situation fails but as soon as the Republic shows itself to be a tyranny again, Luke Skywalker withdraws the Jedi Order from its service. They transform themselves into Rebels again. Luke didn't change sides because GA had become a tyranny, but because his nephew had taken the Jedi on the Academy in Ossus as prisoners and following the suggestion of his own worthless son most of the adults there were killed. That's why Luke changed sides, and when his nephew had been killed on his own orders, he was happy to support insane Imperial warlord and war criminal as a leader of GA... Luke Skywalker of 40-41 ABY doesn't care about democracy or the fate of the little people, he has become a master player in that grand galactic game of politics and sees things on a level where the fate of ordinary people are utterly insignificant. -----signature----- Recipient of the Confederation Ewok with "Rebel Yub"® Action!! Kill Ben Skywalker, the new Jar-Jar!
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 9/2/08 9:43am Subject: RE: Political History Class --- A Classist Interpretation of Star Wars
	Rogue77 posted: And to keep the aforementioned monarchs in power - or to actively fight to increase the size of the realms of the monarchs, like in the case of Empress Teta. Here's scenes where the Jedi actively overthrow the government in the Old Republic. * The Great Hyperspace War * The Krath * The Cleansing of the Nine Houses * The Hidden Past (Jedi Apprentice 3#) * The Defenders of the Dead/The Uncertain Path (Jedi Apprentice 5 and 6#) * The Day of Reckoning (Jedi Apprentice 8#) * The Fight for Truth (Jedi Apprentice 9#) * The Ties that Bind (The Jedi explicitly are there to oversee Democratic Elections) * The Only Witness (A Kleptocracy but a Kleptocracy nontheless) * Jedi Quest: The Shadow Trap (another kleptocracy) * Jedi Quest: The Changing of the Guard Another couple of noteworthy points. Jedi Quest: The freeing of the slaves of Nar Shadda. Jedi Quest: The Way of the Apprentice is about the Jedi helping people in the aftermath of a toxic Disaster. Jedi Quest: The Moment of Truth (The Jedi prevent an invasion of a planet by a richer and more powerful group) Rogue77 posted: Because Anakin betrayed their trust. They had fought for OR against their own kin in a bloody war, and in the end OR ran, evacuated their precious clones and left the Jabiimi loyalists to die. Anakin showed that OR and the Jedi couldn't be trusted. Sure, several young Jedi had died, but the Jabiimi had suffered much greater casualties. Their own kin? You mean the guys who slaughtered all of the elected government and were actively trying to exterminate them BEFORE the Jedi arrived? Next, Anakin Skywalker had no room for them on the ships. It was take them and leave the Clones behind or take the Clones and leave them behind. Shavit happens in military situations and the force had already lost half its numbers. Rogue77 posted: Luke Skywalker of 40-41 ABY doesn't care about democracy or the fate of the little people, he has become a master player in that grand galactic game of politics and sees things on a level where the fate of ordinary people are utterly insignificant. I disagree, given he's still trying to save individual souls in Legacy.
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Rouge77 Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 9/2/08 9:49am Subject: RE: Political History Class --- A Classist Interpretation of Star Wars - Date Edited: 9/2/08 9:50am (1 edits total) Edited By: Rouge77
	Charlemagne19 posted: Here's scenes where the Jedi actively overthrow the government in the Old Republic. * The Great Hyperspace War * The Krath * The Cleansing of the Nine Houses * The Hidden Past (Jedi Apprentice 3#) * The Defenders of the Dead/The Uncertain Path (Jedi Apprentice 5 and 6#) * The Day of Reckoning (Jedi Apprentice 8#) * The Fight for Truth (Jedi Apprentice 9#) * The Ties that Bind (The Jedi explicitly are there to oversee Democratic Elections) * The Only Witness (A Kleptocracy but a Kleptocracy nontheless) * Jedi Quest: The Shadow Trap (another kleptocracy) * Jedi Quest: The Changing of the Guard I can't speak about most of the Jude Watson cases, but in most of the cases I know about the Jedi were fighting on the side of aristocrats against other aristocrats. Charlemagne19 posted: I disagree, given he's still trying to save individual souls in Legacy. The soul of his own descendant, and perhaps the soul of another Jedi too, although it's questionable whether Luke cared about saving Hosk Trey'lis or was Hosk just a good vehicle in an effort to make Cade to save himself by trying to save Hosk. In the end, Luke mostly failed. Hosk died - on the Light Side though - and Cade thinks that he can use Dark Side without falling. This seems to be the limit of Luke's activities. -----signature----- Recipient of the Confederation Ewok with "Rebel Yub"® Action!! Kill Ben Skywalker, the new Jar-Jar!
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
marmkid Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 9/2/08 9:53am Subject: RE: Political History Class --- A Classist Interpretation of Star Wars
	Rouge77 posted: Luke didn't change sides because GA had become a tyranny, but because his nephew had taken the Jedi on the Academy in Ossus as prisoners and following the suggestion of his own worthless son most of the adults there were killed. That's why Luke changed sides, and when his nephew had been killed on his own orders, he was happy to support insane Imperial warlord and war criminal as a leader of GA... Luke Skywalker of 40-41 ABY doesn't care about democracy or the fate of the little people, he has become a master player in that grand galactic game of politics and sees things on a level where the fate of ordinary people are utterly insignificant. The GA was on its way to becoming a tyranny, which is why Luke left, in an attempt to prevent that tyranny. I'd say Luke changed sides when he saw his nephew going down a dark path while in control of the government. Regardless of him being Sith, if you hold everyone hostage, why should Luke just accept that and blindly follow the GA leader? I'm not sure what youre basing that Luke doesnt care about democracy or the fate of people. Could you elaborate? I dont think any of his actions are due to him thinking people are insignificant by any means, but he does have to now think on a larger scale, the thin line between saving a person vs saving planets full of people.
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Rouge77 Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 9/2/08 10:08am Subject: RE: Political History Class --- A Classist Interpretation of Star Wars
	marmkid posted: The GA was on its way to becoming a tyranny, which is why Luke left, in an attempt to prevent that tyranny. I'd say Luke changed sides when he saw his nephew going down a dark path while in control of the government. Luke didn't change sides until Jacen turned against the Jedi. That's the problem. Luke isn't bothered about whether GA is democracy, oligarchic republic or tyranny, as long as GA leadership doesn't turn against the Jedi. marmkid posted: I'm not sure what youre basing that Luke doesnt care about democracy or the fate of people. Could you elaborate? I dont think any of his actions are due to him thinking people are insignificant by any means, but he does have to now think on a larger scale, the thin line between saving a person vs saving planets full of people. I can't really think of any case in EU where Luke would have been troubled about the lack of democracy nor in any case in recent times when he would have actively supported democratic reforms. He's indifferent when it comes to politics inside the state, it's the grander politics of alliances and fleets that he has concerned himself with now. To him it seems that galaxy is one strategic map, and you can't see individual, normal people on such a map. Simply, Luke has become a politician. -----signature----- Recipient of the Confederation Ewok with "Rebel Yub"® Action!! Kill Ben Skywalker, the new Jar-Jar!
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History

Pages: 1 | 2 - ~~Previous~~ | Next | Reload