Jedi Council Forums - Are we approaching 4000 BBY - 1000 BBY

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Author	Topic: Are we approaching 4000 BBY - 1000 BBY - The Sith War?
Sinrebirth Title: Sith Emperor of the SWC Registered: Nov '04	Date Posted: 11/18/08 12:27pm Subject: Are we approaching 4000 BBY - 1000 BBY - The Sith War?
	In the past few months, with the release of the Force Unleashed and the initial story pieces of The Old Republic MMORPG, we've had the gap between the end of the Old Sith Wars in 3,950 BBY and the begining of the New Sith Wars in 2000 BBY painted in dramatically. Chronologically, we have the Great War around two centuries after the events of KotoR I, and after that violence, itself nearly a century long, we have a Cold War followed by another crisis. This yanks us clear into 3,650 BBY, if not later, as introduced by the latter source. Then, we have the rampage of Darth Desolous introduced by the former, who was born 3,500 years before the Clone Wars. Desolous could feasibly have had a lifespan covering centuries, bringing us closer to 3,000 BBY than not, assuming his rampage lasted that long - which isn't too outlandish a suggestion, considering Durge lasted two millennia in his lifespan, and this is a subplot introduced by the arc which gave us Starkiller. Next, we have the actions of Darth Phobos, also introduced by the former, whose actions saw her faction assassinate Jedi and Sith alike, uniting them against her. Even after her death, her cult remained extant until around the time of the Fourth Great Schism - the beginning of the New Sith Wars. My question is this; do you want this? Do you think four millennia of Sith incarnations is a good concept, for Star Wars? Considering there were four separate Sith incarnations in the Old Sith Wars alone - the Sith Brotherhood, Mecrosa, Sith Empire and Sith Trumvirate - how much further do you think we can take this before it becomes incredibly repetitive? So far, we've had a fair amount of uniqueness created with the Creed of Ruin, Dark Underlord, Battlelords and Technobeasts separating out the New Sith Wars (mostly thanks to Abel), but fundamentally always conquer the Outer Rim and falter at the Core, or at Coruscant itself. I'm not sure. Considering how badly the New Sith Wars have been handled, with very few sources covering it, feasibly we could have whole centuries tied up by secondary sources, which could make things complex, in the long run. My final question is - what happens when we've painted from 4000 BBY - 1000 BBY entirely with Sith? -----signature----- Darth Insipid Proud Fan of the Tragedy of Jacen Solo Missing Chapters of Invincible; Chapter 7.5 is up! Jacen and Tassels; Lecersen; Syal; Wedge and Wes and... Tarfang! http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/28933751/p3/?70
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goraq Registered: May '08	Date Posted: 11/18/08 12:28pm Subject: RE: Are we approaching 4000 BBY - 1000 BBY - The Sith War?
	I guess we are,but wait until the current series are finished. -----signature----- ,,Power is tearing human minds apart and putting them back together in new shapes of your own choosing. ,,
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Rouge77 Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 11/18/08 12:58pm Subject: RE: Are we approaching 4000 BBY - 1000 BBY - The Sith War?
	I hope not. My feelings were somewhat negative about the Great War at first, but I'm ok with it now. But there has to be a long span of peace for Darth Ruin's fall and the schism he created to be important. So, I hope that the Sith fade as a major power about 3000 BBY at the latest and what remains after that are just the remnant cults that are no threat to overall peace and which Ruin then can unite like has been off-handedly mentioned already. Personally, I do expect that the Sith will not be a significant, galaxy threatening force much beyond the KOTOR MMO and that Desolous, Phobos and their peers will be more limited dangers in nature: Capable of creating problems on a large scale at worst, but not able to take advantage of it so that they could really be able to threaten the existence of OR and the Jedi Order. -----signature----- Recipient of the Confederation Ewok with "Rebel Yub"® Action!! Kill Ben Skywalker, the new Jar-Jar!
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Leto II Registered: Jan '00	Date Posted: 11/18/08 1:42pm Subject: RE: Are we approaching 4000 BBY - 1000 BBY - The Sith War? - Date Edited: 11/18/08 1:52pm (9 edits total) Edited By: Leto II
	But it's not like none of us REALLY failed to see this coming down the road, either -- once KotOR II and the NEC (along with Abel's Insider article) effectively started packing the Sith a thousand deep between the end of Revan's war and the start of the New Sith Wars, you could tell LFL was going for a pattern of perpetual Sith presence throughout history, where once it was believed that the order sprang up only three or four major times over about seven thousand years. Likewise, it seems that Lucasfilm want to increasingly establish more and more links between the separate orders (something which I don't necessarily oppose, BTW) in order to tighten a continuity that threatens to appear more and more arbitrary. Darth Desolous's timeline placement at 3,500 BBY, so soon after the (presumed) fall of the True Sith, can't be an accident, and I have the feeling that Sin is going to be proved correct -- Desolous's rampages are somehow tied to the True Sith in some as-yet-unrevealed fashion. I certainly can live with a "Long War" scenario during that 4,000 BBY-1,000 BBY period, with the SW:TOR storyline comprising an interregnum era encompassing Coruscant's fall and reoccupation, but now it kind of lessens the whole intended impact of Darth Bane's era and the Draggulch Period, which was set up in the NEC and the Karpyshyn novels as being the absolute rock-bottom-nadir dark times for the Old Republic, et cetera. Now we have this new story, which -- while fascinating on its own terms -- sort of diminishes the dramatic, "Wow, the Republic is seriously effed!" shock and intensity of the events in the Bane period. Who'd have thunk that the NEC would be obsolete so damn fast? Sinrebirth posted: I'm not sure. Considering how badly the New Sith Wars have been handled, with very few sources covering it, feasibly we could have whole centuries tied up by secondary sources, which could make things complex, in the long run. My final question is - what happens when we've painted from 4000 BBY - 1000 BBY entirely with Sith? I agree with your point here, and I think it's going to prove far more important in the long run for LFL to have a few "primary" sources locking things down (such as the SW:TOR game and novelization), and fewer "secondaries" abbreviating what needs to be a fully-rationalized, fleshed-out, and justified history, due to the many complications and perturbations the game will soon be dealing the established continuity. -----signature----- "If there's one thing I hate, it's losing. If there's TWO things I hate, it's losing and getting cancer." - Kenny Powers
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Zorrixor Registered: Sep '04	Date Posted: 11/18/08 5:35pm Subject: RE: Are we approaching 4000 BBY - 1000 BBY - The Sith War?
	Sinrebirth posted: In the past few months, with the release of the Force Unleashed and the initial story pieces of The Old Republic MMORPG, we've had the gap between the end of the Old Sith Wars in 3,950 BBY and the begining of the New Sith Wars in 2000 BBY painted in dramatically. Where'd the year for Desolous come from? Was it IU or OOU? An off hand statement of "three and a half millennia ago" would quickly alert my suspicions given how near that'd bring us to the date of the Great War, give or take a couple of centuries. Was it from a reliable source, or at risk of potential IU (or OOU) subjectivity?
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MercenaryAce Registered: Aug '05	Date Posted: 11/18/08 6:48pm Subject: RE: Are we approaching 4000 BBY - 1000 BBY - The Sith War?
	You know...if Darth Phobos was taken down by an alliance of Jedi and Sith...well... Does that scream "Raid Boss" to anyone else? -----signature----- "I am no man...I am a space station!" Another star wars ships, droids and troops site: http://armiesofstarwars.com/ It does have info found nowhere Move all sig, for great justice
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Leto II Registered: Jan '00	Date Posted: 11/18/08 7:52pm Subject: RE: Are we approaching 4000 BBY - 1000 BBY - The Sith War? - Date Edited: 11/18/08 8:01pm (3 edits total) Edited By: Leto II
	Zorrixor posted: Sinrebirth posted: In the past few months, with the release of the Force Unleashed and the initial story pieces of The Old Republic MMORPG, we've had the gap between the end of the Old Sith Wars in 3,950 BBY and the begining of the New Sith Wars in 2000 BBY painted in dramatically. Where'd the year for Desolous come from? Was it IU or OOU? An off hand statement of "three and a half millennia ago" would quickly alert my suspicions given how near that'd bring us to the date of the Great War, give or take a couple of centuries. Was it from a reliable source, or at risk of potential IU (or OOU) subjectivity? Wasn't it originally established in one of Leland's blog entries, or something? If true, it would put the 3,500 BBY dating at a roundabout-ballpark figure. It's also likely that the date appears in the Wii version of TFU, but having played that version only briefly (owning the Xbox 360 build), I can't confirm or deny this. There wasn't anything mentioned in the RPG sourcebook on this, oddly. On the other hand, since it seems to be "3,500 BBY" specifically, it looks like Desolous's Sith-conversion occurs at slightly less than 1.5 centuries after the events of SW:TOR, which -- if correct -- brings up a whole OTHER slew of very interesting questions concerning the True Sith. -----signature----- "If there's one thing I hate, it's losing. If there's TWO things I hate, it's losing and getting cancer." - Kenny Powers
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Sinrebirth Title: Sith Emperor of the SWC Registered: Nov '04	Date Posted: 11/19/08 12:00am Subject: RE: Are we approaching 4000 BBY - 1000 BBY - The Sith War?
	Zorrixor posted: Where'd the year for Desolous come from? Was it IU or OOU? An off hand statement of "three and a half millennia ago" would quickly alert my suspicions given how near that'd bring us to the date of the Great War, give or take a couple of centuries. Was it from a reliable source, or at risk of potential IU (or OOU) subjectivity? It was within the games internal databank - Darth Desolous was born 3,500 years before the Clone Wars - with literally that order of words, I'm 90% sure. The Darth Phobos information came from there as well, specifically the fact her faction was still in existence as of the Fourth Great Schism. So... it was probably OOU, because it was updated with information that Starkiller couldn't possibly have known, such Vader's true identity. Phobos and Desolous, incidentally, were spirits within the Jedi Temple that took part in the Trials, so only in the Wii and PS2 versions, I believe. And what kind of questions, Leto? -----signature----- Darth Insipid Proud Fan of the Tragedy of Jacen Solo Missing Chapters of Invincible; Chapter 7.5 is up! Jacen and Tassels; Lecersen; Syal; Wedge and Wes and... Tarfang! http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/28933751/p3/?70
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Jedimarine Registered: Feb '01	Date Posted: 11/19/08 6:53am Subject: RE: Are we approaching 4000 BBY - 1000 BBY - The Sith War?
	I don't think this becomes "repetitive" as long as we stop looking at it as a new sith every time out. The reality is this...the republic soldiers on...the Jedi uphold peace and justice, despite obvious SIth threats...and the Sith never really die. What this is doing is ratcheting up the momentous events of Ruusan (where the Sith as an "obvious" threat are destroyed.) and Endor (where the Sith as the "ultimate" threat are destroyed.) Of course, then you can get into the crying about Sith after Palps and Vader...but that's not what this discussion is about. What we need to do is get past the idea that history is only "dotted" with Sith...in truth...the Sith are persistent threat from the Hundred Year Darkness to Endor...and it's a testament to the Jedi to maintain the trappings of relative peace and justice for the Republic for most of that 7,000 years. -----signature----- So Devaronian females are suppose to have thick fur, eh? Has anyone seen one outside an essential guide? ... When even the creative teams refuse to make fuzzy Devaronians...it should be a clue, folks. Thus endeth the lesson.
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Sinrebirth Title: Sith Emperor of the SWC Registered: Nov '04	Date Posted: 11/20/08 8:54am Subject: RE: Are we approaching 4000 BBY - 1000 BBY - The Sith War?
	My primary concern is that it's too dark - repetitive we can deal with inventively, but dark? There's only so many times the Sith can survive without the point of fighting them becoming unknown - in Legacy, Cade brings up this very point. Korriban is clearly still a Sith planet when Darth Phobos is expelled, but we already know, from the EGttF, that Ruin united existing Sith clans to engage the Republic. So... are we arguably already there? The Jedi wouldn't leave Korriban to the Sith, so are we simply in a perpetual war from the end of the Great War onwards? It makes the gap between KotoR II and ToR more intriguing, at least - the Sith know they're still at war with the Republic, but the Republic doesn't. I'm more behind this, I suppose, but I'm wondering how many years of publishing we're going to be buying before we fill the Three Thousand Year Sith War up... shrugs -----signature----- Darth Insipid Proud Fan of the Tragedy of Jacen Solo Missing Chapters of Invincible; Chapter 7.5 is up! Jacen and Tassels; Lecersen; Syal; Wedge and Wes and... Tarfang! http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/28933751/p3/?70
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Jedimarine Registered: Feb '01	Date Posted: 11/20/08 9:13am Subject: RE: Are we approaching 4000 BBY - 1000 BBY - The Sith War?
	5...maybe? I guess I don't understand the concern about "filling it up? They already hacked the amount of time "Sith" even exist down significantly. the reality is...why is the 3000 year gap a valued commodity? Why can't it be filled? I mean, when you look at the absurd level to which the 50 odd years of the films has been stack in like timbers...and more is coming...is it really that unnerving to have a cohesive journey from KOTOR to present? I think from the moment KOTOR became a hit, I knew this was coming...certainly not an MMO...but I knew the path from those heroes would make it to the films...it was inevitable. And before a comic fan says a thing about TOTJ...please remember what they are and who they reach by comparison to KOTOR. I suspect in 5 years or so, the whole line will be revealed...there will be an "essential guide" to the sith and an exact run down of every "major" Sith Lord from the exile to Krayt...it's coming because we want it...and they are going to be very "giving". I wouldn't be surprised if the great "list" doesn't already exist on paper somewhere...it's just a matter of not giving it all away at once, so we buy in a piece at a time until they wrap it up at the end with the "Essential Guide". The other thing I think this does is dramatically deflat the impact of most Sith...guys we thought were menacing like Nihilus or Malak...will be footnote villains...barely a scratch on the history books...and certainly not a considerable threat to the galactic peace...despite the "dire" language portrayed around them in the "moment" of confrontation with them (everyone who faces off with a Sith thinks they are the greatest threat to the galaxy ever, no doubt...and we will hear this over and OVER). Here is what is really being lost...the "mystery" of the Sith...we will know them far better then the Jedi who have battled them for ages...the Sith as a "Phantom Menace" becomes increasingly comical because of the desire to "connect the dots" and give us legitimate lineage...because above all else, the desire is to make the "bad guys" into an ever-present shadow...even in the oft thought of "utopia" of the Old Republic...a thought debunked more with each new release. I think what we may be seeing is that the first 20 odd years of the Empire...might be the most peaceful in galactic history! -----signature----- So Devaronian females are suppose to have thick fur, eh? Has anyone seen one outside an essential guide? ... When even the creative teams refuse to make fuzzy Devaronians...it should be a clue, folks. Thus endeth the lesson.
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Sinrebirth Title: Sith Emperor of the SWC Registered: Nov '04	Date Posted: 11/20/08 9:26am Subject: RE: Are we approaching 4000 BBY - 1000 BBY - The Sith War?
	Valid point, considering, a few years ago, the Sith were supposed to have been founded in 24,500 BBY. Now they've been about since 7,000 BBY in some shape or form. On the 'filling it up' point. Well, let's assume, as a given, that they fill the timeline from 4000 BBY to 1000 BBY up with a perpetual Sith War of some kind - what's next? In five years time, we'll probably be cresting upon 150 ABY in the comics, and the novels will have nearly filled the gap from 40 ABY to 127 ABY, considering how fast Del Rey is leaping forward. And by that time the four galactic wars - Clone, Galactic, Yuuzhan Vong, Second Galactic - will have reached saturation point, with the Dark Times as brimming as any era. Are we writing ourselves into a ditch where Star Wars becomes too full? That's before I even comment on the Sith. Yes, I'm a little off-topic, but that's my main issue, I suppose. And, even then, do we want the two decades of Empire to be the most peaceful we have from 4000 BBY to 150 ABY? -----signature----- Darth Insipid Proud Fan of the Tragedy of Jacen Solo Missing Chapters of Invincible; Chapter 7.5 is up! Jacen and Tassels; Lecersen; Syal; Wedge and Wes and... Tarfang! http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/28933751/p3/?70
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DarthBoba Registered: Jun '00	Date Posted: 11/20/08 9:50am Subject: RE: Are we approaching 4000 BBY - 1000 BBY - The Sith War?
	I don't think you could really consider the two decades of the Galatic Empire as peaceful; sure, there might not have been any wars going on, but there's still things like Caamas, the general genocide inflicted upon alien species in the Outer Rim as shown in Boba Fett: Agent of Doom... I think that's where the Galactic Empire crossed the line in my mind from being a fairly run of the mill dictatorship to out and out evil, that Agent Of Doom comic. I remember being like "holy (^&%" when I read it. -----signature----- Only a Prime can defeat Vader and his Emperor.
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Sinrebirth Title: Sith Emperor of the SWC Registered: Nov '04	Date Posted: 11/20/08 11:36am Subject: RE: Are we approaching 4000 BBY - 1000 BBY - The Sith War?
	Relatively speaking, then. Though, to be fair, the image of Boba Fett accepting this mission for a hundred credits... it's definitely poignant. -----signature----- Darth Insipid Proud Fan of the Tragedy of Jacen Solo Missing Chapters of Invincible; Chapter 7.5 is up! Jacen and Tassels; Lecersen; Syal; Wedge and Wes and... Tarfang! http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/28933751/p3/?70
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Jedimarine Registered: Feb '01	Date Posted: 11/20/08 11:45am Subject: RE: Are we approaching 4000 BBY - 1000 BBY - The Sith War? - Date Edited: 11/20/08 12:44pm (3 edits total) Edited By: Jedimarine
	Sinrebirth posted: And by that time the four galactic wars - Clone, Galactic, Yuuzhan Vong, Second Galactic - will have reached saturation point, with the Dark Times as brimming as any era. Are we writing ourselves into a ditch where Star Wars becomes too full? So what is the universal measure for "saturation"? A sales decline? I know, I'm more then saturated when it comes to the films period...that's not stopping the material from coming. The Clone Wars continuity mess doesn't seem to matter, even though "saturation" is at the heart of that issue. Who measures saturation? How much will we take? honestly, now? And if not us, the next group of fans down the road? I used to joke that someone could write a diary of lukes life, with an entry a month, for most of his lifetime, probably...and they will STILL make new stories. saturation only matters to those of us with a rigid and real sense of continuity and timeline... and we are losing this war. In another 5 years, I wager we have at least 2 more "death star plan" stories...I cannot wait to see what happens to Boba Fett in the Live Action Series...actually, I can...it was more a figure of speech with a touch of sarcasm...sorry. Things are becoming more and more about "variations on a theme" or "reimagining for current readers"...I am not going to be shocked to see new stories in the immediate Post ROTJ days...yeah...brace for that. Point is...this is an alarm bell that's been going off for years...most of us have just gotten used to the sound..."saturation" is something that no credence is being paid too...and rounding out the universe is desired. And once they hit 150ABY...what's wrong with 200ABY or 5000ABY? I suspect we will get there. Personally, I'd like to see 25,000BBY or earlier...I want to see Star Wars: Pioneer Days...and a galaxy that doesn't really grasp the "force" yet. ----- And now it's time for Jedimarine's brutal truth of the month: The sooner we all learn that no one cares about this stuff as much as we do, the more comfortable we'll all be in the face of such unwieldy expenditures of timeline and slights of continuity. The people at LFL are not our friends...despite their pandering on TOS forums. And, bless their hearts, even some of the creative teams who do their very best to give us quality AND accuracy are going to run into obstacles where they'll have to choose between appeasing the vocal constructionist minority, and appealing to wider markets...I hate it, but I have to understand that. We are running headlong into a universe that is no longer going to be "and the next chapter is"... We are moving into "welcome to star wars...it's too big for you...too big for anyone...focus your search, and pick your path from the multiple choice." -----signature----- So Devaronian females are suppose to have thick fur, eh? Has anyone seen one outside an essential guide? ... When even the creative teams refuse to make fuzzy Devaronians...it should be a clue, folks. Thus endeth the lesson.
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Vrook_Lamar Registered: May '08	Date Posted: 11/21/08 5:09am Subject: RE: Are we approaching 4000 BBY - 1000 BBY - The Sith War?
	Sinrebirth posted: Then, we have the rampage of Darth Desolous introduced by the former, who was born 3,500 years before the Clone Wars. Desolous could feasibly have had a lifespan covering centuries, bringing us closer to 3,000 BBY than not, assuming his rampage lasted that long - which isn't too outlandish a suggestion, considering Durge lasted two millennia in his lifespan, and this is a subplot introduced by the arc which gave us Starkiller. According to http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/sagaenhancementpauans, A Pau'un can live for beyond 700 years and don't start showing physical problems due to aging until 400. So Darth Desolus could be born aroudn 3500 bby and die 2800 bby, or easily die 300 bby and not luke like any Pau'un's grandpa.
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