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Author	Topic: What are the biggest themes in Star Wars EU?
Darth-Ghost Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 12/6/08 12:38pm Subject: What are the biggest themes in Star Wars EU?
	What do you think the biggest themes in the EU are? They could be themes carried on from the movies, or new themes the EU has developed all on its own. Redemption This may be the biggest theme from the movies (Han Solo, Lando, and Darth Vader all redeeming themselves), and it has carried over into the EU. Luke has gone on to redeem many. There's Ulic, Ajunta Pall, and Darth Revan. Luke and Kol Skywalker both worked to help the Yuuzhan Vong redeem themselves. Jag was put in charge of the Imperial Remnant in order to help redeem them, rather than slaughter all the moffs. Ben Skywalker redeemed Tahiri. There is controversy if Jacen Solo could have been redeemed or not. People wonder if Darth Krayt may be redeemable. Redemption has clearly worked its way into being one of the EU's biggest themes. Rebellion This is an easy one. The Rebel Alliance against the Galactic Empire, the Separatists rebelling against the Galactic Republic, the Shamed Ones revolting against the Supreme Overlord, Corellia and the Confederation rebelling against the Galactic Alliance. Anakin Skywalker rebelling against the Jedi, Luke Skywalker rebelling against the Sith. Fathers versus sons, each generation trying to fix the mistakes of the previous generation. The Gray Side It is slightly hinted in the movies ("a certain point of view" "there are heroes on both sides" "evil is everywhere"), but this has really became central in the EU. Heroes making mistakes, villains making noble and selfless sacrifices, Jedi killing innocent padawans based on a prophecy, Sith working for galactic peace and unity. There is a grayness, a moral ambiguity now, things are more complex and realistic, less black and white, making everything seem darker. Vergere may have started the current trend, claiming "There is no dark side of the Force." She had a significant impact on her pupils (Lumiya, Jacen Solo, Darth Krayt), and even on Luke Skywalker. Should Alpha Red have been used, fighting genocide with genocide? Is it worth it to kill one life in order to save many? Do the ends justify the means? Is bringing peace worth sacrificing your soul? What is more important for the Jedi: duty to their government, duty to the Force, or duty to what they feel is right? Is keeping the galactic government united more important than keeping the peace, should they let rebellious star systems go peacefully, or is it "the more you tighten your grip, the more star systems will slip through your fingers"? This is just to get us started. What do you think are other big themes in the EU?
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 12/6/08 12:42pm Subject: What are the biggest themes in Star Wars EU?
	Freedom vs. Oppression: At heart, Star Wars is strongly about the fact that human beings will never tolerate being oppressed even if they invite it on. Fundamentally, human beings will eventually rise up and cast off their shackles. On a related note is the fundamental good of this fact. Oppression is never justified in the Star Wars EU and anyone who supports it is evil. Good vs. Evil: Star Wars is very much about the fact that struggles eventually narrow down a good vs. evil. Obi Wan Kenobi may lie to Luke but he's still on the side of angels while Darth Vader is solely evil until he turns back to Good. It's a very Manichean world where Neutrality and Grays are actually just one side or the other being ignorant. Spirituality: The Force being a metaphor for God and Enlightenment.
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Teppler Registered: Dec '06	Date Posted: 12/6/08 1:05pm Subject: What are the biggest themes in Star Wars EU?
	It's more Gray than Good vs Evil We had a whole 26 book story arc on debating whether or not the Vong were evil and then it ends with them not being evil. I think the point of view issue has really been pushed on the reader and this makes stories more gray. -----signature----- Retired from these boards 12/18/08
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 12/6/08 1:36pm Subject: What are the biggest themes in Star Wars EU?
	Teppler posted: It's more Gray than Good vs Evil We had a whole 26 book story arc on debating whether or not the Vong were evil and then it ends with them not being evil. I think the point of view issue has really been pushed on the reader and this makes stories more gray. I don't see that. There's no valid Neutral position. The Yuuzhan Vong go from Evil to Good. Where's the idea that Evil needs to be fought with Evil? That Good and Evil are just perspectives? Again, really, there's nothing that seems to suggest Neutrality or "Mixed" worldviews are valid.
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RK_Striker_JK_5 Registered: Jul '03	Date Posted: 12/6/08 1:53pm Subject: What are the biggest themes in Star Wars EU?
	Lately... Happy endings are few and far between. No matter what you do, there is no 'reward' for your hard work/sacrifice. Evil is cool. Life is pain and misery. -----signature----- E-married to the wonderful DarthIshtar. Now also her Padawan. Member of the Y.J.K. Revolution Staring into the Darkness http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/27537567/p1/?23
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Master_Starwalker Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Sep '03	Date Posted: 12/6/08 1:57pm Subject: What are the biggest themes in Star Wars EU? - Date Edited: 12/6/08 2:03pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Master_Starwalker
	The Gray Side While the films depict a largely black and white narrative, the EU has (for a number of reasons I won't get into) attempted to paint a picture of a galaxy which is ambiguous. Admittedly, the idea that Vergere was secretly a Sith agent and moral relativism laying the groundwork for Jacen's fall may signal that Del Rey wants to backpedal some. This largely contradicts the movies imo. It's like the Movies...with a twist This is often connected to the Gray Side theme, but we repeatedly see the idea that history repeats itself in broadstrokes, but differs a good deal in terms of the details. An example of this is Legacy. In the films we have a heroic rebellion fighting for freedom against "the evil Galactic Empire." However, in Legacy while we have the heroic rebellion(GA remnant) and "the evil Galactic Empire"(Krayt's Sith Empire), we also have a 'good' empire in the form of the Fel loyalists(an idea which seems to run counter to the films' perspective.) This continues from the movies given that in the Prequels we see an evil rebellion against a good republic(or at least we're supposed to think it is) and then in the OT we see a good rebellion against an evil empire. Democracy Sucks Every democratic institution in Star Wars has been rendered corrupt and ineffective. This is also reinforced by making the Fel Empire one of the heroic elements in Legacy and by the Hapans being considered 'good.' Monarchy and dictatorships work. Democracy doesn't. This also contradicts the movies. They allow for a corrupt democracy, but they still advocate it over a dictatorship. Edit: Of course, Charles is right that it also has the Good vs. Evil theme as he laid it out. What at first seems gray (Vergere, the Potentium) is often revealed to have in fact been evil. -----signature----- "Imaginary is the future. Always now, even eternity will be." - Yoda "We can never obtain peace in the outer world until we make peace with ourselves." - The 14th Dalai Lama
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Ryorin Registered: Nov '08	Date Posted: 12/6/08 2:22pm Subject: What are the biggest themes in Star Wars EU?
	To me, there seems to be a major anti-prejudice them in the EU sine the Thrawn trilogy, not just freedom vs. oppression though that definitely applies as well. The obvious ones are species and gender prejudice, but consider how certain Imperials are portrayed: not all of them are evil and some are just plain likable(think Pellaeon). Even the Vong aren't universally evil in the middle of NJO. And not all members of the Alliance/ New Republic have what's best for the Galaxy in mind(Borsk) and some Bothans flat out defy well-deserved stereotype(Asyr). Falynn Sandskimmer spent her entire Rebel career trying to get away from being lobbed in a group with all the other pilots from Tatooine. -----signature----- "Yub yub, Commander!" -Wes to Wedge "Yub yub, Lieutenent!" -Wedge to Wes The Errant Venture-- Who wouldn't want a bright red Star Destroyer? Now with 1200% more Rambling: http://ryorins-ramblings.blogspot.com/
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Jedi Ben Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 12/6/08 2:30pm Subject: What are the biggest themes in Star Wars EU?
	In regards to the grey side theme, I'm inclined to say it isn't really so in that: What IS this grey side? What definable quality does it have? People use grey as shorthand for 'mix of good and evil', not to mean anything in and of itself which is interesting: For in the PT things are complex, with good and evil more widely distributed across both sides as it were: Jedi / Sith; Republic / CIS. Yet by the end of the PT there has been a coalescence of both into opposing blocks, which leads into the polarised structure of the OT: Rebellion vs Empire. The point of the films therefore would appear to be that though things may be complex, they tend to resolve and clear, much in the way that even the murkiest mist ends p giving way to light and clear vision. As to the failure of democracy, there are two ways out of this: One is to say the Rebellion only restored the Republic as it was PT with corruption and all other flaws intact, but this ignores that both Mothma and Organa saw those flaws. The Rebellion was to restore the Republic not as it was but as it should be. The second element is that for the EU to continue conflicts and crises are needed - so the direction taken has been to have democratic systems fail at every turn, which does strike me as an error: The rise of the Empire in ROTS, to the applause of Senators is intended to be a tragic note but it's only tragic if what is passing - democracy - is seen as having great value and that arguably has not happened in either films or EU. On the issue of redemption, I'm coming to the view that it's been over-used thus people seem to expect everyone to get redeemed, when what makes redemption so special is that it is rare. It doesn't happen very often, not least because there are people who'd rather die, or cause a ton of trouble, than admit they screwed up or were wrong. It also requires very careful handling, as before a character gets redeemed they will have likely hacked off both the characters and the audience. The skill lies in being able to still show something of good in this character who has gone off the rails but retain a sense of lasting consequence. Successes for me would be Quinlan Vos, Kyp Durron; whereas a failure would be Jaina Solo. I'd class both Vader and Qel-Droma as being less sought redemption and more as an unexpected gift that neither sought, which is why they were granted it. -----signature----- Excellence: "You are the forum's Quick Ben." SW EU fans: John Ostrander needs your help! http://www.comix4sight.com
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Manisphere Registered: Aug '07	Date Posted: 12/6/08 4:08pm Subject: What are the biggest themes in Star Wars EU?
	Was The Hero's Journey as a central theme played out by ROTJ? I think some aspects of it can be seen in Zayne's experience. But Cade and Quinlan seem to be more emerging from darkness than the old Hero's Journey theme. And I have no idea how to define Anakin's journey. Especially as he's lost all semblance of inner darkness in TCW. (Haven't pulled my Campbell off the shelf in a while.) -----signature----- "Head of State, a Sith is just a Jedi who's gone off his meds."-Natasi Daala
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Teppler Registered: Dec '06	Date Posted: 12/6/08 4:12pm Subject: What are the biggest themes in Star Wars EU?
	Jacen wasn't really a traditional bad guy in a good vs evil story arch. Most traditional bad guys just do bad things for the sake of being evil. Jacen was trying to bring forward a period of peace- a time when a kid like him wouldn't have to go through life losing his brother, his uncle(I'm gonna call Chewbacca an uncle), his home ect... It's a noble goal. I remember Vergere talking about two types of darkside users in Destiny Way: The type of genius who can't help but see that things in the universe just aren't working, the other types who just wake up one night and say "I choose evil!". This is what I interpret as a sort of gray area. With the Vong- They never changed throughout the whole series. They didn't go from bad to good. They went from alien gray to alien gray. -----signature----- Retired from these boards 12/18/08
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vong333 Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 12/6/08 4:18pm Subject: What are the biggest themes in Star Wars EU?
	The biggest theme about Star Wars and the EU is basically repeating the same thing over and over and over again. Some Jedi falls, to the Dark Side, the galaxy sufferes and some naive person comes up and tries to save the day, only to have the same thing happen again later on.
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LtNOWIS Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 12/6/08 4:20pm Subject: What are the biggest themes in Star Wars EU?
	Master_Starwalker posted: Democracy Sucks Every democratic institution in Star Wars has been rendered corrupt and ineffective. This is also reinforced by making the Fel Empire one of the heroic elements in Legacy and by the Hapans being considered 'good.' Monarchy and dictatorships work. Democracy doesn't. This also contradicts the movies. They allow for a corrupt democracy, but they still advocate it over a dictatorship. The movies also love monarchs. Lots of queens and princesses running around. -----signature----- A little bit about me: http://tinyurl.com/bnmcck
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DarthUr Registered: Oct '08	Date Posted: 12/6/08 4:45pm Subject: What are the biggest themes in Star Wars EU?
	The nature of the overall Star Wars story arc really should have its primary political theme be fascism vs. democracy. It should examine the very real pull fascism has due to being a form of government inherently more organized, single-minded and prepared for total war than democracy. ...And it should also examine the fundamental ways fascism fails, oppressive governments tend to eat away at their own support, and in the end all government must eventually be by the consent of the governed or topple. Examine the reason democracy is worth preserving in the first place. But the books tend to balk before doing so. Indeed, I've been very frustrated with how Zahn's books actually present the Empire of the Hand as a fully functional bureaucratic dictatorship with apparently no downsides and made Mara Jade's continued commitment to the New Republic seem like a fool's errand. It really ought to be the kind of thing that Mara and Leia sat down for a long, knock-down drag-out debate over at some point, that Leia would eventually win -- atrocities like Alderaan are the inevitable result of totalitarian power, not just the fault of Palpatine in particular being a big fat jerk. But it doesn't happen. Similarly, the political issues KT brings up in her books I wish were more double-sided. Assuming a Jeffersonian distributed pseudo-anarchist yeoman-farmer society actually existed, it would still have many downsides and problems compared to the true civic engagement of an organized, urbanized, capitalist civilization. But we don't see it -- everyone who really has a well-considered opinion about it would rather be a Mando than live in the rotting corruption of Coruscant. It's annoying, and both ideas stem from a kind of reflexive defend-the-underdog thing -- the Republic represents the civilized, urbanized, democratic institutions that make up our own society, and so naturally people have an impulse to examine the other way and see if it might work. But it's intellectually dishonest to do so without trying to be fair and examining the real reasons we don't live that way in our own society, rather than going into a kneejerk the-grass-is-greener attitude toward monarchy, or bureaucratic dictatorship, or yeoman-farmer anarchy, or whatever.
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Master_Starwalker Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Sep '03	Date Posted: 12/6/08 9:44pm Subject: What are the biggest themes in Star Wars EU? - Date Edited: 12/6/08 9:48pm (3 edits total) Edited By: Master_Starwalker
	LtNOWIS posted: Master_Starwalker posted: Democracy Sucks Every democratic institution in Star Wars has been rendered corrupt and ineffective. This is also reinforced by making the Fel Empire one of the heroic elements in Legacy and by the Hapans being considered 'good.' Monarchy and dictatorships work. Democracy doesn't. This also contradicts the movies. They allow for a corrupt democracy, but they still advocate it over a dictatorship. The movies also love monarchs. Lots of queens and princesses running around. Elected queens who have term limits and a princess who seems to gain her influence more from her status as a Senator than her adopted family's royalty. -----signature----- "Imaginary is the future. Always now, even eternity will be." - Yoda "We can never obtain peace in the outer world until we make peace with ourselves." - The 14th Dalai Lama
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DarthUr Registered: Oct '08	Date Posted: 12/6/08 9:54pm Subject: What are the biggest themes in Star Wars EU?
	You've got to admit it sounds kind of funny, though -- having all these trappings surrounding Padme being the Queen and then putting a band-aid on it by saying it's okay, she was elected. (Even though a 14-year-old hereditary monarch makes waaay more sense than a 14-year-old somehow maneuvering through all the politics it takes to win a national election.) It's the same with the hemming and hawing over how much Leia is important because she's a Princess and how much she's important because she's a Senator -- but everyone remembers her as "Princess Leia" and not "Senator Organa", after all. It's kind of cheating -- giving us the cultural trappings and cachet of royalty but band-aiding it by saying it's okay, it's still democratic in the end. It's part of how Star Wars sits uneasily between the fairy-tale fantasy it takes its actual structure from and the futuristic, politically "realistic" science fiction it's pretending to be.
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Master_Starwalker Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Sep '03	Date Posted: 12/6/08 10:01pm Subject: What are the biggest themes in Star Wars EU? - Date Edited: 12/6/08 10:01pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Master_Starwalker
	Oh, it's definitely a band-aid Lucas put on to communicate that Leia and Padme gained their power democratically. However, it's a significant one. -----signature----- "Imaginary is the future. Always now, even eternity will be." - Yoda "We can never obtain peace in the outer world until we make peace with ourselves." - The 14th Dalai Lama
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