Jedi Council Forums - What are the biggest themes in Star Wars EU?

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Author	Topic: What are the biggest themes in Star Wars EU?
Robimus Registered: Jul '07	Date Posted: 12/6/08 11:05pm Subject: What are the biggest themes in Star Wars EU? - Date Edited: 12/6/08 11:14pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Robimus
	DarthUr posted: But it's intellectually dishonest to do so without trying to be fair and examining the real reasons we don't live that way in our own society, rather than going into a kneejerk the-grass-is-greener attitude toward monarchy, or bureaucratic dictatorship, or yeoman-farmer anarchy, or whatever. I'd suggest Star Wars is very much about these different styles of government, not just the styles which happen to be prevelent in our society today. There is no need to examine why we don't live the way the Killiks do for example, or the way the Hutts do. I personally think that the problems with Hapan society have been well represented in the EU, as well as the problems with dictatorship, be it benevolent or not. Also the problems with Democracy, particularly in a galaxy filled with super beings, has been very represented as keeps getting mentioned. I don't think a galaxy that had a relatively peaceful Republic for 1000 generations is really arguing that hard that democracy doesn't work, more its showing what can happen when it breaks down. That said many of the representives of the Senate were assigned to the senate in a seemingly un-democratic way. Yes, the worlds had a voice in the galactic senate, but were often under the rule of very different government structures at home. It's always seemed to me like many worlds represented in the Senate did so to maintain the right to rule their own systems anyway they wished. In the case of the Mandalorians I'd compare them to the indiginous peoples of many nations who still live in the exact same manner there forefathers did with very limited contact with modern society. These people all know that modern society exists but have little desire to be a part of it, just like the Mandalorians. They are happy how they are, just like the Mando's. Edit to add example : Doman Beruss, Senator representing the Oligarchy of Illodia in both the Old Republic and then New Republic after the fall of the Empire. -----signature----- I am forever seeking the damutek of Hooley Krekk Oh, woe! Oh, misery! Oh, unhappiness. Hooley Krekk where are you? . http://www.cccomiccon.com http://www.actionfigurenews.ca
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Teppler Registered: Dec '06	Date Posted: 12/6/08 11:51pm Subject: What are the biggest themes in Star Wars EU?
	I'd rather Star Wars not cram down my throat that democracy, dictatorships ect... is the right thing. What we've seen so far is pretty much everything failing but I guess there wouldn't much Star Wars without the Wars part huh. The NR, GA democracy - terrible, new war every couple years with catastrophic results because they can't properly defend or govern a large region with many special interests. Dictatorship- obvious case is Palpatine, human rights being denied I guess Hapans and Imperial's in legacy are doing alright for themselves on a smaller scale though. -----signature----- Retired from these boards 12/18/08
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Master_Starwalker Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Sep '03	Date Posted: 12/7/08 12:15am Subject: What are the biggest themes in Star Wars EU? - Date Edited: 12/7/08 12:16am (1 edits total) Edited By: Master_Starwalker
	Robimus posted: I personally think that the problems with Hapan society have been well represented in the EU, as well as the problems with dictatorship, be it benevolent or not. Also the problems with Democracy, particularly in a galaxy filled with super beings, has been very represented as keeps getting mentioned. I don't think a galaxy that had a relatively peaceful Republic for 1000 generations is really arguing that hard that democracy doesn't work, more its showing what can happen when it breaks down. I suppose the Old Republic does show it can work. -----signature----- "Imaginary is the future. Always now, even eternity will be." - Yoda "We can never obtain peace in the outer world until we make peace with ourselves." - The 14th Dalai Lama
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LtNOWIS Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 12/7/08 12:42am Subject: What are the biggest themes in Star Wars EU?
	Yeah. While the prequels are about the Republic's downfall, the Sith Wars stories are about it taking at hit and surviving. -----signature----- A little bit about me: http://tinyurl.com/bnmcck
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DarthUr Registered: Oct '08	Date Posted: 12/7/08 2:20am Subject: What are the biggest themes in Star Wars EU? - Date Edited: 12/7/08 2:30am (1 edits total) Edited By: DarthUr
	Robimus posted: I personally think that the problems with Hapan society have been well represented in the EU, as well as the problems with dictatorship, be it benevolent or not. Also the problems with Democracy, particularly in a galaxy filled with super beings, has been very represented as keeps getting mentioned. I don't think a galaxy that had a relatively peaceful Republic for 1000 generations is really arguing that hard that democracy doesn't work, more its showing what can happen when it breaks down. Except that that means that all we're ever shown is democracy breaking down. We get told about the glorious peace in the Old Republic but every time we actually see it they're in the throes of some kind of crisis against which the corrupt and venal Senate is powerless to react. And the thing is we don't actually see the corresponding weaknesses of dictatorship. We are shown that dictatorship is bad -- what we are not shown is the all-important corollary that dictatorship is weak. The message I get from some books seems to be "Democracy is nice but it doesn't work" vs. "Dictatorship is ugly and unhappy but boy howdy does it do the job". Which shouldn't be the message. To some degree the Rebellion's success at kicking the Empire's butt is a sign of the Empire's own weakness, but because of the way the story plays out it doesn't feel that way -- it feels like "Invincible, organized, unstoppable Empire unfairly beaten by superheroic Chosen One". Really, the emphasis should be on the fact that the Empire is a rotten system collapsing under its own weight that, in fact, only holds together because Palpatine is using all his evil Force mojo to keep it going while Luke is using all his good Force mojo to bring it down. And that was what was alluded to -- "The more you tighten your grip, the more systems will slip through your fingers" -- and what some books still say, but the introduction of Thrawn as a bad guy with no Force mojo who's just really smart and knows how to make an Empire that does work efficiently and justly and wonderfully all based on his master plan undermines this dichotomy completely. Robimus posted: In the case of the Mandalorians I'd compare them to the indiginous peoples of many nations who still live in the exact same manner there forefathers did with very limited contact with modern society. Personally I don't just dislike the Noble Savage view of Mandalorians because I don't like what it does to the story -- I don't like Noble Savages in general because it's a view of reality that's, well, not true. No people, indigenous or not, ever lived in "the exact same manner as their forefathers" in a utopian system of perfect stability with no concentrations of power and no oppression of one class by another class. But if I insisted on my fantasy eschewing tropes like the Noble Savage I'd be a PC twit who only read China Mieville and ticked off my friends by quoting him whenever someone mentioned Tolkien. Even so. Other fantasy series -- the most recent one I've read is the Codex of Alera by Jim Butcher, which I recommend -- have Noble Savage societies that I like because they are, nonetheless, not perfect savages who acknowledge that their societies have blind spots and prejudices and could use improving. This, too, is in fact a trope -- the trope of the white man and the native ending up shaking hands and saying "We've both learned a lot from each other". The usual PC thing that PC liberal writers are willing to grudgingly admit natives can learn from Western civilization tends to have to do with equality and, say, gender relations -- see every cheesy martial arts movie ever where the wise old sensei starts out refusing to train women. (And this could actually have been a rich vein to mine for Mandos, given the overwhelming dominance of male characters among the Mandos and the fact that they actually say stuff about how it's the man's duty to protect the women by going off to war and the women's duty is to stay home and support the man and all that -- but no, there's no resentment between the sexes in Mando society, everyone's happy, and Mando society is apparently -- according to KT -- the first place in Star Wars we see an openly gay couple because they're just that tolerant and awesome.) I mean, Noble Savage vs. Bad Savage is also an incredibly old trope. It's there in KotOR with Zaalbar and his brother Chuundar. Hell, we had it in the Mandalorian lore with the True Mandalorians and the Death Squad, with Fenn Shysa's "new" ideology of the Mandalorian Protectors and his hatred of Boba Fett, etc. Which is why it's particularly annoying to see that thread being unraveled for the sake of making Mandalorian culture more monolithically wonderful in the KT books.
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CooperTFN Title: TF.n EU Staff Emeritus Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 12/7/08 2:25am Subject: What are the biggest themes in Star Wars EU?
	Biggest theme of the EU, specifically? I'd say futility. -----signature----- Mike Cooper's Star Wars Blog http://blogs.starwars.com/coopertfn "Your tongues can't repel flavor of that magnitude!" "NAKED TWI'LEK WITH LIGHTSABER = MONEY" - Ris_jSarek "I bid you all Dark Greetings!"
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RK_Striker_JK_5 Registered: Jul '03	Date Posted: 12/7/08 2:33pm Subject: What are the biggest themes in Star Wars EU?
	CooperTFN posted: Biggest theme of the EU, specifically? I'd say futility. Pretty much, yeah. No matter what you do, there's not gonna be a happy ending. Life will suck, you will die. -----signature----- E-married to the wonderful DarthIshtar. Now also her Padawan. Member of the Y.J.K. Revolution Staring into the Darkness http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/27537567/p1/?23
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CooperTFN Title: TF.n EU Staff Emeritus Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 12/7/08 2:42pm Subject: What are the biggest themes in Star Wars EU?
	The worst part is, it's our fault. -----signature----- Mike Cooper's Star Wars Blog http://blogs.starwars.com/coopertfn "Your tongues can't repel flavor of that magnitude!" "NAKED TWI'LEK WITH LIGHTSABER = MONEY" - Ris_jSarek "I bid you all Dark Greetings!"
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Master_Starwalker Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Sep '03	Date Posted: 12/7/08 2:49pm Subject: What are the biggest themes in Star Wars EU? - Date Edited: 12/7/08 2:49pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Master_Starwalker
	CooperTFN posted: Biggest theme of the EU, specifically? I'd say futility. I had almost put that a major theme of the EU is that Life is Dukkha and Anicca so I'd agree. -----signature----- "Imaginary is the future. Always now, even eternity will be." - Yoda "We can never obtain peace in the outer world until we make peace with ourselves." - The 14th Dalai Lama
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CooperTFN Title: TF.n EU Staff Emeritus Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 12/7/08 3:29pm Subject: What are the biggest themes in Star Wars EU?
	A slightly less morose way of putting it would be that "things are always more complicated than they seem at first glance". The movies are brief and tidy, until the EU comes in and says that "well, yeah, the Emperor's dead and everything, but life didn't suddenly become perfect. And even in the fabled Old Republic, there was a constant struggle to maintain stability". -----signature----- Mike Cooper's Star Wars Blog http://blogs.starwars.com/coopertfn "Your tongues can't repel flavor of that magnitude!" "NAKED TWI'LEK WITH LIGHTSABER = MONEY" - Ris_jSarek "I bid you all Dark Greetings!"
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NelanisGhost Registered: Jun '06	Date Posted: 12/7/08 3:44pm Subject: What are the biggest themes in Star Wars EU?
	RK_Striker_JK_5 posted: Lately... Happy endings are few and far between. No matter what you do, there is no 'reward' for your hard work/sacrifice. Evil is cool. Life is pain and misery. Yep. Evil wins. -----signature----- If there's a bright center of the galaxy, you're on the planet it's farthest from: Earth Our own stunning bright center: http://astrosurf.com/sguisard/Pagim/GC.html Barnes and Noble: TFU hardcover. Nice! $5.98 in discount section.....
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RK_Striker_JK_5 Registered: Jul '03	Date Posted: 12/7/08 4:12pm Subject: What are the biggest themes in Star Wars EU?
	Or, even if evil loses, good gets such a phyyric victory, it might as well fall on its sword at the end. -----signature----- E-married to the wonderful DarthIshtar. Now also her Padawan. Member of the Y.J.K. Revolution Staring into the Darkness http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/27537567/p1/?23
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Robimus Registered: Jul '07	Date Posted: 12/7/08 4:43pm Subject: What are the biggest themes in Star Wars EU?
	DarthUr posted: And the thing is we don't actually see the corresponding weaknesses of dictatorship. We are shown that dictatorship is bad -- what we are not shown is the all-important corollary that dictatorship is weak. LOTF went out of its way to show just how many problems the Imperial Remnant had within its leadership. You seem to be arguing that dictatorship should never be shown as functional, even over a very short period of time, which just doesn't seem that realistic to me. A dictatorship under a decent, noble leader would be just fine for a time, though I agree corruption and greed would always come to the surface at some point. Dictatorship is weak? This seems like too broad a statement to me, in no way supported by evidence from the Star Wars Expanded Universe, if even actual human history. Personally I'm glad the Star Wars EU shows us so many different forms of government, not promoting one over another. It's that ability to diversify that makes the galaxy more believable to me, even more interesting. As to the Mandalorian's living like ther forefathers did I'm sure your right to a point. Modern advances do make their way into any society surrounded by a more advanced one. That said my idea is more that the Mandalorian's, like many indiginous peoples, don't have a desire to take part in society as we understand it. They don't throw out their traditional views and rituals just to assimilate. They maintain a certain distance, while interacting with whatever external society surrounds them. I really don't think its a stretch that Mandalorians love Mandalore, yet the arrival of the Imperial Garrison linked with the events from Marvel do show that their society is far from perfect, even if the Mandalorians don't realize it at the time. -----signature----- I am forever seeking the damutek of Hooley Krekk Oh, woe! Oh, misery! Oh, unhappiness. Hooley Krekk where are you? . http://www.cccomiccon.com http://www.actionfigurenews.ca
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DarthUr Registered: Oct '08	Date Posted: 12/7/08 7:06pm Subject: What are the biggest themes in Star Wars EU?
	Robimus posted: As to the Mandalorian's living like ther forefathers did I'm sure your right to a point. Modern advances do make their way into any society surrounded by a more advanced one. Well, no. That's part of the Noble Savage archetype that is ultimately, at its core, racist and offensive -- that the Indians (to take an example) would've lived in peace and at harmony with nature in a totally static state for millennia and it was only the Europeans who brought change. This isn't true. The history of the New World was just as full of conflict, technological advancement, societal upheaval, and generational change as the history of the Old World. We think of the Amerindians' history as being this snapshot postcard of peaceful tribal life largely because that snapshot is all European historians saw before they blew it all up. Robimus posted: That said my idea is more that the Mandalorian's, like many indiginous peoples, don't have a desire to take part in society as we understand it. They don't throw out their traditional views and rituals just to assimilate. They maintain a certain distance, while interacting with whatever external society surrounds them. I'm not saying it's unrealistic that Mandalorians would resist or subvert attempts at assimilation. Indeed, I think sudden wholesale assimilation as a good thing and an inevitable thing is just as wrong and racist a narrative as the Noble Savage. My issue is with the belief that Mandalorians are of one mind on this, that the "Mandalorian culture" being protected is a monolithic, universal and basically unequivocally positive thing, and that the interaction of Mandalorian culture with external culture is seen in the purely one-dimensional light of "resisting the outsiders vs. embracing the outsiders". In real life it's always a great deal more complicated than that. I don't demand that level of complexity from fiction, of course, but I'd like it to be at least a little more complicated than that. The "peaceful innocent Indians who just want to be left alone" trope is very old and tired by now. Robimus posted: I really don't think its a stretch that Mandalorians love Mandalore, yet the arrival of the Imperial Garrison linked with the events from Marvel do show that their society is far from perfect, even if the Mandalorians don't realize it at the time. Well, that's my thing -- ironically the old "shallow" take on Mando culture as "bad guys" has a lot of stuff that would be fascinating if you worked it into KT's attempt at "fleshing out" the Mandos, but rather than embracing it -- giving the Mandos their own religious fanatics, their own genocidal xenophobes, and so on -- she seems instead to be whittling away at it with time. The main reason I objected to the Fenn Shysa retcon in O66 is how much it makes Fenn Shysa seem just like the other Mandalorians; the main reason I found the way Revelation used Mandos to be kind of nauseating is how powerfully it reminded me of every "simple highland villagers teaching the white guy the meaning of true honor" sequence in every Hollywood movie. (Most recent example off the top of my head: The Last Samurai.)
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Zpm Registered: Dec '08	Date Posted: 12/8/08 8:50am Subject: What are the biggest themes in Star Wars EU?
	War seems to be a pretty big theme in the EU. There doesn't seem any real peace in the galaxy except in the waning years of the Old Republic and frankly to me at least this particular theme is a little old to keep seeing over and over again.
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