Jedi Council Forums - The Continuity Reformation: We might be worried now, but happy later (Hear me out!)

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Author	Topic: The Continuity Reformation: We might be worried now, but happy later (Hear me out!)
CeiranHarmony Registered: May '04	Date Posted: 12/6/08 4:47pm Subject: The Continuity Reformation: We might be worried now, but happy later (Hear me out!)
	Aside from Clone Wars, GCW, Marvel and whatever trouble might arise... I see a light at the end of the tunnel. Hear me out! I love continuity and all the old stuff, like I do the new stuff. Sure everything got issues here and there, troubles, bad characterisation or things we would have liked different. But, even if short term continuity might be like wild water rafting (!) long term effects I think are even far better than we might expect right now. Nobody likes works discarded or ignored by authors, or too many retcons and stuff pressed into short timeframes. But what I see coming is not a reboot and not a mixing of all old and all new stuff. It is different. I see it more as "Let us be inspired by what came before but do whats best in our own opinion storywise, and honor earlier works with including parts of them in the new stuff." Sure not the best approach for continuity fans who want every small detail to be set in stone. Yet this is no loose we do whatever we want continuity either with more infinities than canon. For example, years ago we couldn´t even imagine how movies, series etc. would turn out. But we still wanted EU and we got it to the best knowledge of the authors and editors. in retrospective something might have been better different. Well, sure, but We can´t wait for everything to be published/released and then fill in the gaps. Fandom and EU work paralell to all that and do not want to wait. So I see continuity evolving into a continuity that evolves from old EU and inspires new EU, to a continuity that will fit the overall picture of the story better. The CW series f.e. feels like SW to me, more than the EU does. Yet the EU has quality and fun in its own right I do not want to miss. And both will not ignore each other but also not work hand in hand always. Thus, we have a continuity that features quite a lot stuff that does not always fit nicely or even sometimes contradict each other (like historians often do in real world, too ) and that's not good but ok. Looking at the big picture, the continuity will take old and new material and BE Star Wars even if some parts are missing in the shadows, not out but more or less neglected. TFU and CW are a new trend... new trumps old, they inspire and use old data and EU and also invent new stuff to combine it with. They like George take what they like and use it, using the EU as pool of ideas and elevate some into Lucas-canon while the rest stays in the shadows. for a time we had these shadows BE Star Wars... but now Star Wars is the higher level and the SHadows are Star Wars so long they fit into the empty spaces between the higher level. like the Artus legend, lots of versions exist.. some more official some less.. let the Whills sort out the mess that Voren created.. or some other historian? what do you think? PS: Dear Mods this is not suited for the CW continuity debate but for SW in general so please do not close the topic, or at last inform me and wait for my answer before you close it, please. Thx -----signature----- www.njoe.com (Govsec Author) "Less is more!" Union In Love with the Star Wars Atlas Dark Horse: Star Wars: Invasion (best idea ever!!!) My life is an Idiots Array, PURE SABBACC
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Manisphere Registered: Aug '07	Date Posted: 12/6/08 5:03pm Subject: The Continuity Reformation: We might be worried now, but happy later (Hear me out!)
	Well, I'm in the middle of Rebel Dawn and it's really bugging me that this book and the whole start of the Rebellion has now been preempted for TFU. That's bothering me. Am I supposed to think, okay well this didn't happen same as we disregard the pre prequel Fett stuff? That I have to accept Starkiller as the start of the rebellion oversimplifies everything and dumbs it all down. I'm just loving this trilogy and now it's been paved over. Just sayin' -----signature----- "Head of State, a Sith is just a Jedi who's gone off his meds."-Natasi Daala
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CeiranHarmony Registered: May '04	Date Posted: 12/6/08 5:15pm Subject: The Continuity Reformation: We might be worried now, but happy later (Hear me out!)
	Manisphere posted: Well, I'm in the middle of Rebel Dawn and it's really bugging me that this book and the whole start of the Rebellion has now been preempted for TFU. That's bothering me. Am I supposed to think, okay well this didn't happen same as we disregard the pre prequel Fett stuff? That I have to accept Starkiller as the start of the rebellion oversimplifies everything and dumbs it all down. I'm just loving this trilogy and now it's been paved over. Just sayin' yeah I love this trilogy by crispin. I still see it in continuity, like proto-rebellion and singular cells with loose wo´rking together, less organized than the later alliance. the jabba has a son stuff from the CW cartoon bugs me most with that trilogy. or the nar shadda repelled the empire and in TFU they have a tie facility i´n orbit. I am not saying new stuff trumps old and is better just that it should be better if it does. the sad truth is that is not always the case... or depends on opinions and pov of fans and officials alike. -----signature----- www.njoe.com (Govsec Author) "Less is more!" Union In Love with the Star Wars Atlas Dark Horse: Star Wars: Invasion (best idea ever!!!) My life is an Idiots Array, PURE SABBACC
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The2ndQuest Title: Manager: -Literature -LACWAC -Games Registered: Jan '00	Date Posted: 12/6/08 6:09pm Subject: The Continuity Reformation: We might be worried now, but happy later (Hear me out!)
	TFU didn't really pre-empt the start of the Rebellion as depicted in various sources like Rebel Dawn. Besides the Bail Situation. You have Bria and Bail's talks taking place before Starkiller's major involvements and such. The various cells eventually coelsece into what we know. -----signature----- "When your future self tells you to do something, YOU DO IT." K'Kruhk, 140 ABY:"Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker? Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..."
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CooperTFN Title: TF.n EU Staff Emeritus Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 12/6/08 6:25pm Subject: RE: The Continuity Reformation: We might be worried now, but happy later (Hear me out!)
	If anything, I would view this as the Second Reformation. The first was circa TPM/AotC - Ruusan, Jaster Mereel, Clone Wars timeline relocation, etc. -----signature----- Mike Cooper's Star Wars Blog http://blogs.starwars.com/coopertfn "Your tongues can't repel flavor of that magnitude!" "NAKED TWI'LEK WITH LIGHTSABER = MONEY" - Ris_jSarek "I bid you all Dark Greetings!"
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CeiranHarmony Registered: May '04	Date Posted: 12/7/08 5:10am Subject: The Continuity Reformation: We might be worried now, but happy later (Hear me out!)
	CooperTFN posted: If anything, I would view this as the Second Reformation. The first was circa TPM/AotC - Ruusan, Jaster Mereel, Clone Wars timeline relocation, etc. and the next one will be Dark Times with live action TV series. they stopped that era and comic series in time, it seems. But aside from the "local" trouble within certain eras only, what of the spin off stuff from other Eras that used these as basis which cannot be discarded as bad history lesson then? I do not mean TTT but lets say the NJO/LOTF and onwards. well, these days continuity might be trouble, but there are other things I worry for that nobody seems to care about: Ship floorplans, hyperspace travel times, etc. those got ignored more often than we can count. especially the travel times thing bothers me, cause it invalidated the Aing Ti instant travel method if hyperspace travel does not need weeks from one end of the galaxy to the other. originally it was 2 weeks or 4? now it seems within days or even hours you can hop around from Core to Outer Rim and back. travel times might elongate novel time, or disrupt some storytelling cause of certain planets one wants to use are far from each other (Atlas trouble is yet another thing^^) but travel times account for lots of possibilities with wars and strategies, or let us determine planets distances and create a map in the first place!!! now those get ignored and differ from novel to novel. not that I would mind, but later EU timelinewise like post-ROTJ has longer journeys than clone wars EU has, which is technologically unwise and cannot be explained away with a regression, like cloacked ships had due lack of stygium crystals. Hyperspace Travel times are an opportunity in good author hands... yet even good authors ignore them where they do not suit their tales these days... I want my travel times back!!! -----signature----- www.njoe.com (Govsec Author) "Less is more!" Union In Love with the Star Wars Atlas Dark Horse: Star Wars: Invasion (best idea ever!!!) My life is an Idiots Array, PURE SABBACC
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Dougie_Five Registered: Aug '03	Date Posted: 12/7/08 6:22am Subject: The Continuity Reformation: We might be worried now, but happy later (Hear me out!)
	Manisphere posted: Well, I'm in the middle of Rebel Dawn and it's really bugging me that this book and the whole start of the Rebellion has now been preempted for TFU. That's bothering me. Am I supposed to think, okay well this didn't happen same as we disregard the pre prequel Fett stuff? That I have to accept Starkiller as the start of the rebellion oversimplifies everything and dumbs it all down. I'm just loving this trilogy and now it's been paved over. Just sayin' What is it about Rebel Dawn that is nullified by TFU? Iirc it's quite feasibly set within 2 years of ANH and the Rebellion is in its infancy.
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beccatoria Title: Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group Registered: Dec '06	Date Posted: 12/7/08 6:50am Subject: The Continuity Reformation: We might be worried now, but happy later (Hear me out!) - Date Edited: 12/7/08 6:51am (1 edits total) Edited By: beccatoria
	I don't know. I think that it's possible to do what you describe - writing new stuff designed to appeal to an audience in 2008 without being constrained by stuff that was written for a comic book audience thirty years ago - without actively overwriting what exists already. The EU pre-the-last-few-years was a good example of this. There was a lot of crazy stuff in the Marvel era, and a very different flavour to the novels in the Bantam era. But the EU carried on, changing and adapting and introducing new styles, like the longer arcs of the NJO, the moral ambiguity of Vergere or ideas brought in from the prequels as they were released, while very rarely rewriting or trampling previous works. They were just...left alone, and referenced and retconned into the more "modern" feel of continuity where possible and appropriate. I don't think that we're headed for a reboot either. Neither do I think that we're headed for total comic book continuity where nothing really changes the status quo. But I do mourn the attitude of never contradicting anything if possible for this new, "Oh well, if we, right now, think it sounds cooler, let's go for it," attitude. Mainly because I think that's increasingly unsustainable and yes, it kind of saddens me to watch things I love downgraded in importance when the cohesive universe was one of the things that dragged me so soundly into the EU in the first place. I don't judge people who don't mind a looser version of continuity, but it's not my preference, and so even if I end up with a "reformation" that leads to tighter continuity within that reformation, I'll still mourn the things that were lost, and would still prefer a messier, but more expansive, canon? -----signature----- legatus imperatoris britanniæ superior REMEMBER: X-WING: WEDGE'S GAMBLE DISCUSSION STARTS IN DECEMBER! Han's a girl, so I got a Golden Ewok.
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Zorrixor Registered: Sep '04	Date Posted: 12/7/08 9:41am Subject: The Continuity Reformation: We might be worried now, but happy later (Hear me out!)
	I generally find I have somewhat inconsistent and varying attitudes toward continuity depending on what it is we're talking about. For example, when it comes to the Galactic Civil War period I gave up on making sense of that a long, long time ago. I always pretty much predicted the Clone Wars would go the same way, so have never emotionally invested myself that much in Clone Wars continuity either. Don't get me wrong, I loved the comics, read all the novels, but I always feared it'd be revisited to death so much that in the long term a completely strict continuity was never going to happen. Now, if we took a totally different time frame, essentially anything from TotJ or Bantam, I'd probably be a lot more grumpy if they substantially messed with that. Shifting the odd date around? Don't mind. Saying Thrawn never happened? That'd be a big no-no. I put this down to the fact that to a large extent I can isolate the Clone Wars and GCW and not particularly worry which version of events ultimately stands the test of time. Whereas, with a lot of the Bantam era stuff its almost the movies of the EU, the fundamental building blocks on which the rest has been built. In my eyes, to overwrite most of the Bantam era would be akin to overwriting Episodes 4, 5 and 6 themselves, since a lot of the early Bantam stuff essentially was "Episodes 7, 8 and 9" in a certain sense. The same is true with my love of TotJ. I don't mind the odd retcon like we got in KOTOR that altered a few things, but I'd be annoyed if ever TotJ got the Clone Wars treatment. I just can't picture an Old Republic era that doesn't have TotJ any more than I can picture a New Republic era not having Thrawn, Jacen or Jaina. To me, these were the building blocks, the same way Episodes 1, 2 and 3 will always be there no matter how much they play around with the Clone Wars. The way things are going currently... I enjoy the new take on the Clone Wars and do agree that in the long run we'll probably be left with something better off. My insecurities are more the precedent it could lead to if ever they want to do the same thing with other aspects of the EU, essentially the fundamental chapters of it. Could someone write a better Thrawn Trilogy, sticking to the main story? Sure, any work of art is a work in progress, even when published, things can always be edited more and improved. I wouldn't ever want to see that happen though--why revisit the New Republic? Been there, done that. Why not do something new the way the original Bantam era did? Though I enjoy the Clone Wars, that really is my fear at present. Continuity doesn't bother me that much, I like it, I don't like it when they screw with important things, but I'm not here for continuity, I'm here for new stories and adventures. What worries me with something like the Clone Wars is more that we're just rehashing the same stuff, when I'd sooner see something new. I was never into Marvel as it was just Episodes 4, 5 and 6, with a bit more added on. What interested me was when Thrawn started paving the way into the future. The one thing I'd never want to see is someone go and redo the New Republic, when there are thousands of unexplored years that I'd much rather see than taking the easy route of just rehashing. I generally feel that's the problem with Dark Times and Rebellion's sales figures compared to KOTOR and Legacy: they're bland in their genericness. I'm surprised how much I'm enjoying the Clone Wars series, but... I'm still left with a feeling that I'd have far more enjoyed something totally new that I'd never seen before. In a way, perhaps I actually am glad they're throwing the old continuity out as it at least means the individual stories are new, but I expect I'd have found something set in a different era more fresh. In that respect, what I would like to see for the future if Clone Wars viewing figures maintain their present numbers, is for them to one day branch out into telling new stories. At the moment though, my one fear is that if Clone Wars is successful enough to warrant a spin off series, I can see them revisiting the GCW yet again before they ever take the gamble to try another all new era the way Bantam, Dark Horse and BioWare have done in the past.
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blackmyron Registered: Oct '05	Date Posted: 12/7/08 4:44pm Subject: The Continuity Reformation: We might be worried now, but happy later (Hear me out!)
	The problem I have, though, is with completely out-of-the-blue major continuity issues that have cropped up recently. Witness the Goldberg-style scenarios trying to explain how three of the Alliance leaders were on the Death Star. Or besides the infamous Clone Wars timeline paradox, why suddenly move Rodia to the Outer Rim when it's been in the Mid Rim for over a decade in the EU? Was it really necessary for the sake of story to do so? -----signature----- Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. "Come on Dave, you're taking this stuff too seriously." - George Lucas "Reality can rarely be explained without contradictions." - Karnak
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Robimus Registered: Jul '07	Date Posted: 12/7/08 5:37pm Subject: The Continuity Reformation: We might be worried now, but happy later (Hear me out!)
	I often wonder if I'm a lot more easy going toward continuity because I've been around since before the EU was really anything of significance. Stuff like Splinter of the Minds Eye and the Lando and Han adventures predate so much and yet I still enjoy them a great deal. I've really never thought of them as losing any importance over the years even though adjustments obviously needed to be made in order to fit them into current "canon". My earliest issue with continuity was Dark Empire, which many would argue wasn't even a continuity problem, but I still feel like it was. We had the Thrawn Trilogy and soon after Dark Empire. One had no reference to the other to the point that I remember viewing the novel and comic events as two seperate universes. The Thrawn Trilogy heavily relied upon pre-existing information from WEG, while Dark Empire seemed to simply toss away everything that had come before and re-imagine Star Wars in its own image in a lot of ways, thus creating its own seperate universe in my mind at the time. A few years later enter Lucas in preperation for the Prequels and a massive overwrite of what came before EU wise. While he thankfully kept Coruscant as the capital of the Republic and home of the Senate, so much else was tossed or re-imagined. Enter the big LFL retconning machine , suddenly they had to find a way to fit Zahn's clones into the Clone Wars, find a way that Neeja Halcyon could have a family, not to mention the countless other Jedi who had their families "hunted down and destroyed", so on, so forth. And please lets not mention sandboxes , for me a change is a change, be it Tim Zahn's or George Lucas's. I personally don't differenciate between Lucas and those writing in his universe. I guess the bottom line for me is that there has never been a rigid attempt to maintain continuity in the Star Wars universe, only a loose one. Yes the official LFL policy is that its all canon, more or less(Hoojib's Rule! ). But to me that statement has always been more lip service than anything else. At almost every turn something has contradicted something else, to pretend it hasn't seems pointless. The mere fact that LFL promises to make it all make sense again at some point with a New, New, New Essential Chronolgy or something is enough for me. -----signature----- I am forever seeking the damutek of Hooley Krekk Oh, woe! Oh, misery! Oh, unhappiness. Hooley Krekk where are you? . http://www.cccomiccon.com http://www.actionfigurenews.ca
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Arawn_Fenn Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 12/7/08 5:46pm Subject: The Continuity Reformation: We might be worried now, but happy later (Hear me out!)
	CeiranHarmony posted: especially the travel times thing bothers me, cause it invalidated the Aing Ti instant travel method if hyperspace travel does not need weeks from one end of the galaxy to the other. originally it was 2 weeks or 4? now it seems within days or even hours you can hop around from Core to Outer Rim and back. The long travel times originated with the EU, but are not backed up by the films. The OT supports shorter travel times like the ones seen in AOTC/ROTS. -----signature----- "Just when you think the amount of fail cannot possibly increase, the Internet keeps on giving." - SalvorHardin "Let's see them argue with nature and persuade the nonexistent polar bears not to eat them." - crownarmourer
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Havac Title: Lit Mod of War Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 12/7/08 10:26pm Subject: The Continuity Reformation: We might be worried now, but happy later (Hear me out!)
	Robimus posted: I guess the bottom line for me is that there has never been a rigid attempt to maintain continuity in the Star Wars universe, only a loose one. Yes the official LFL policy is that its all canon, more or less(Hoojib's Rule! ). But to me that statement has always been more lip service than anything else. At almost every turn something has contradicted something else, to pretend it hasn't seems pointless. Well, there we come to two points: there may not have been an effort before, but there is now: witness the Holocron and such. We've made the move to a system with a rigid attempt to maintain continuity. Even if that's slackening now, that's different from prior situations that were before a tight continuity had been established. Also, there's a difference between mistakes slipping through (which has always happened, always will, and doesn't really get too many people up in arms) and breaks in continuity being consciously pushed through. So no one's pretending stuff has never been contradicted before -- but people are saying that there's something new and more grating in how and why stuff is being contradicted now. -----signature----- "Is there a captain's hat involved in this?" "I . . . don't know what department I want. I need . . . pants."
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CeiranHarmony Registered: May '04	Date Posted: 12/8/08 2:06am Subject: The Continuity Reformation: We might be worried now, but happy later (Hear me out!) - Date Edited: 12/8/08 2:08am (1 edits total) Edited By: CeiranHarmony
	Arawn_Fenn posted: CeiranHarmony posted: especially the travel times thing bothers me, cause it invalidated the Aing Ti instant travel method if hyperspace travel does not need weeks from one end of the galaxy to the other. originally it was 2 weeks or 4? now it seems within days or even hours you can hop around from Core to Outer Rim and back. The long travel times originated with the EU, but are not backed up by the films. The OT supports shorter travel times like the ones seen in AOTC/ROTS. true and I am not advocating that GL has to stick to EU rules, but aside from major continuity stuff that this board so often mentions and discusses, I am more worried for all the minor things that seem to be forgotten. these are story instruments that I think still need to be kept clean, cause the SW universe works with its own physics and laws of SW nature, yet if these laws contradict themselves the universe looses 1 of many points I like about it. f.e. the LOST universe, (mostly a TV series, yeah) despite all the minor references and lots of stuff going on keeps a tighter continuity than I ever thought possible. they are, in my eyes, better at that job. sure the universe is smaller, yet much more detailes are kept in order. even if they have contradictions they present them or use them storywise in an interesting way to create within the viewers/readers mind lots of possible solutions without presenting one yet. -----signature----- www.njoe.com (Govsec Author) "Less is more!" Union In Love with the Star Wars Atlas Dark Horse: Star Wars: Invasion (best idea ever!!!) My life is an Idiots Array, PURE SABBACC
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Robimus Registered: Jul '07	Date Posted: 12/8/08 6:43am Subject: The Continuity Reformation: We might be worried now, but happy later (Hear me out!) - Date Edited: 12/8/08 7:36am (1 edits total) Edited By: Robimus
	Havac posted: We've made the move to a system with a rigid attempt to maintain continuity. Even if that's slackening now, that's different from prior situations that were before a tight continuity had been established. I'd argue that we've had continuity/story changes of a greater or lesser extent every few years. 1997, 1999, 2002, 2005 and now 2008(and thats just the films/TV series). Some might say that George Lucas's changes don't count, but as I above stated they do for me. LFL is making an effort toward having a singular continuity but they are and have been making tweeks along the way, virtually the whole way. I'm not sure who you're reffering to as we, LFL or the fans? This is what I mean in reguard to lip service from LFL. From one side of their offices they have Leland Chee saying everything is canon and that continuity is important. On the other side we have George Lucas saying that the EU is almost a seperate universe so far as he's concerned. Then in the middle somewhere we have the folks approving the changes that authors like KT and DK having been making to the continuity. I don't see that as rigid. At times the continuity has been solid, but thats only till the next change comes along. -----signature----- I am forever seeking the damutek of Hooley Krekk Oh, woe! Oh, misery! Oh, unhappiness. Hooley Krekk where are you? . http://www.cccomiccon.com http://www.actionfigurenews.ca
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EECHUUTA Registered: Mar '07	Date Posted: 12/8/08 7:15am Subject: The Continuity Reformation: We might be worried now, but happy later (Hear me out!)
	Hmm.. judging from those dates listed, it seems like its every two or three years. -----signature----- I sense a disturbance in the Forums. As if a million spam threads cried out in terror, and were suddenly locked. Does action, figure?
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