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Author	Topic: But in the EU, It Says...™ - Interdiction at Endor
CooperTFN Title: TF.n EU Staff Emeritus Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 12/31/08 5:15pm Subject: But in the EU, It Says...™ - Interdiction at Endor
	While I was away from the holonet over the interdays...I mean, from the internet over the holidays, I came up with an interesting idea for a series of topics. It started when I was reading the introduction of the Mon Cal cruiser Justice in Mindor. That led to me thinking about something that's always kind of gotten my goat over the years - that fact that Palpatine didn't destroy the Home One first when he started using the superlaser at Endor (in a battle that went on to become the very definition of "our leader's dead, so let's all give up"). That led to me thinking about various defensive strategies the Rebel cruisers might have been employing, which led to me wondering why Palpatine wouldn't have had Interdictors present - or if he did, why Ackbar would've been so keen on trying to retreat. Anyway, what struck me as interesting was the fact that the events in the movie are basically fine on their own, and it's the EU addition of Interdictors that complicates things. Since we all love to talk about the many ways that the EU has improved, or outright corrected, weird aspects of the movies (12 parsecs, anyone?), I thought it would be interesting to go in the other direction and discuss places where the EU has complicated things - not made them worse, necessarily; I like Interdictors - but where it's taken situations that work fine as Lucas saw them, but were then saddled with extraneous explanations in order to fit the EU. The key discussion points being: -was the addition of the EU element cool/interesting enough to have been worth the complication? -could there have been any alternatives that would satisfy the needs of the EU and the movies? Ex: some other kind of tactical hyperspace prevention that wouldn't have been effective at Endor? -has the complication been adequately smoothed out by further EU? -if not, how do you think it should be? Or do you just prefer to ignore it? I have a few topics along this line, but I didn't want to blitz the forum with them, so I'll just start with one for now. If anyone comes up with a similar topic, I'd love to see more posted in this series - just use this thread title up to the "™" (they're so adorable), and maybe repost the key points I just mentioned so the conversations stay relevant to the original concept - instead of, say, why something sucks. So, with all that said - according to the Wook, the Interdictors were deployed in the "outer system" at Endor (anyone know the source for that?), which could explain why Ackbar wants to retreat, though there are still several things that bug me - first, anyone as seasoned and brilliant as Ackbar would have to know better than to think that Palpatine would have gone to the trouble of putting together the Biggest Trap Ever and not have interdiction going on. Second, they would've had to be so far out that their fields wouldn't have extended into the battle zone, which would mean that Ackbar could at least have hypered out of the immediate conflict area, which would potentially give them a lot of breathing room, and thus seems unnecessarily sloppy for the Empire - though I can see some tactical advantage in letting the Rebels think they had a way out, as they might not fight as intently, and the debate over staying or going would cost them precious time and concentration. Third, exactly how many 418s would it take to completely envelop, volumetrically, an entire system? Mindor says you need five (CCs, though, not 418s; maybe there's a difference) to enclose the general vicinity of one planet, so that would be, what? I can't even imagine - scores, at least, unless you subscribe to the idea that there are only a few safe routes out of a system to begin with. Personally, I think a more interesting fix would've been one similar to the first Death Star moving around Yavin - there was some kind of natural gravitic obstruction in the Endor system that meant they could jump in but not jump out, or at least not without a prohibitive amount of planning, or without knowing specific vectors. As a postscript to this, my original question - why didn't Palpatine target the Home One first? The only thing I can think of is that another cruiser just happened to be blocking the shot at first, and after they knew what was going on, they set up a protective formation around it. -----signature----- Mike Cooper's Star Wars Blog http://blogs.starwars.com/coopertfn "Your tongues can't repel flavor of that magnitude!" "NAKED TWI'LEK WITH LIGHTSABER = MONEY" - Ris_jSarek "I bid you all Dark Greetings!"
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Vialco Registered: Mar '07	Date Posted: 12/31/08 5:36pm Subject: RE: But in the EU, It Says...™ - Interdiction at Endor
	I think that since the interdictors were deployed at the outer edges of the system, Ackbar didn't notice them, until after Lando told him to stay and fight, which is why he did, because he had realized that he couldn't retreat. As for the Home One, yes I think that it was shielded by the rest of the fleet. After all, normally, a flagship remains deep in the fleet, safe from any attacks. Niathal's quote in Revelation, that flagships aren't supposed to fight like frigates is testimony to that. Anyway, that's what I think, these are some good questions you're asking. -----signature----- "Beware, Jedi Master, lest through carelessness and inattention you let loose on the galaxy a monster…" -Bodo Bass My fanfic, Seer's End, http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/30478748/p1/
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kttch809 Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 12/31/08 5:45pm Subject: RE: But in the EU, It Says...™ - Interdiction at Endor - Date Edited: 12/31/08 5:47pm (1 edits total) Edited By: kttch809
	CooperTFN posted: So, with all that said - according to the Wook, the Interdictors were deployed in the "outer system" at Endor (anyone know the source for that?), which could explain why Ackbar wants to retreat, though there are still several things that bug me - first, anyone as seasoned and brilliant as Ackbar would have to know better than to think that Palpatine would have gone to the trouble of putting together the Biggest Trap Ever and not have interdiction going on. Second, they would've had to be so far out that their fields wouldn't have extended into the battle zone, which would mean that Ackbar could at least have hypered out of the immediate conflict area, which would potentially give them a lot of breathing room, and thus seems unnecessarily sloppy for the Empire - though I can see some tactical advantage in letting the Rebels think they had a way out, as they might not fight as intently, and the debate over staying or going would cost them precious time and concentration. Third, exactly how many 418s would it take to completely envelop, volumetrically, an entire system? Mindor says you need five (CCs, though, not 418s; maybe there's a difference) to enclose the general vicinity of one planet, so that would be, what? I can't even imagine - scores, at least, unless you subscribe to the idea that there are only a few safe routes out of a system to begin with. Page 8 of The Truce of Bakura Sourcebook (most likely the original source concerning the presence of Interdictors at Endor) seems to indicate Ackbar was aware of the presence of the Interdictors when he gave the order to retreat, and would have had to "fight through the Interdictor battle line in an extended retreat" because the gravity well that was "created by the Death Star's own mass made any attempt at jumping to hyperspace futile at best, fatal at worst." In the course of that retreat, they'd've likely had nowhere to hide from the Death Star's superlaser, "but at least some of the fleet would survive. In theory." -----signature----- "The Force is a superstition, a myth people swear by. It's used to frighten children." -Luke Skywalker
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The2ndQuest Title: Manager: -Literature -LACWAC -Games Registered: Jan '00	Date Posted: 12/31/08 5:48pm Subject: RE: But in the EU, It Says...™ - Interdiction at Endor
	I can only imagine that perhaps the Liberty provided the clearest shot for the first superlaser firing- that or Palps wanted the Rebel leadership to collectively crap it's pants before they were blown away. It seems they started targeting the more likely command craft after that point though- the second ship we see destroyed in the movie was of the same mak as Home One (the CCG implies it's the Independence, but I'm pretty sure there's evidence the Indepedence survived, so it must have been a third ship). -----signature----- "When your future self tells you to do something, YOU DO IT." K'Kruhk, 140 ABY:"Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker? Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..."
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CooperTFN Title: TF.n EU Staff Emeritus Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 12/31/08 5:59pm Subject: RE: But in the EU, It Says...™ - Interdiction at Endor
	Yeah, Indy definitely survived. -----signature----- Mike Cooper's Star Wars Blog http://blogs.starwars.com/coopertfn "Your tongues can't repel flavor of that magnitude!" "NAKED TWI'LEK WITH LIGHTSABER = MONEY" - Ris_jSarek "I bid you all Dark Greetings!"
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The2ndQuest Title: Manager: -Literature -LACWAC -Games Registered: Jan '00	Date Posted: 12/31/08 8:23pm Subject: RE: But in the EU, It Says...™ - Interdiction at Endor
	Which makes sense, as I think the implication in the ROTJ deleted scenes is that the cruiser Madine was commanding was the Indy. Still, i imagine the Indy or Home One would have been the next DS2 targets if Jerjerrod hadn't targeted Endor. -----signature----- "When your future self tells you to do something, YOU DO IT." K'Kruhk, 140 ABY:"Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker? Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..."
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dp4m Registered: Nov '01	Date Posted: 12/31/08 9:46pm Subject: RE: But in the EU, It Says...™ - Interdiction at Endor
	Coop - I also seem to recall some source that pinpointed the fleet trapped, even in a three-dimensional quasi-space, between the Death Star at Endor and the Imperial fleet which would keep "rotating" to keep the Rebels between the DS2 and them to prevent escape. Since the DS2 and Endor were all producing fairly large-sized gravity fields to begin with, that theoretically should have been enough to root the Rebel fleet there for annihilation. -----signature----- "Looks like you're about to get pwned" - Eric Cartman "Awarding experience points for cleverly and creatively generating an enjoyable experience. How warped is that?" - Darths & Droids
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Admiral_Stone Registered: Jun '08	Date Posted: 1/1 10:33am Subject: RE: But in the EU, It Says...™ - Interdiction at Endor
	Re: Home One Palps seems to be the kind of villain that is so totally sure of their superiority that they don't need to kill the enemy leaders first. Just let them watch their buddies die and realize they're totally screwed, before killing them while feeding off their despair Or there's some IG-88 link here -----signature----- Hobbes: You sure know a lot about rocks Calvin: You bet. Ballistic missiles from God I call them.
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Jedi Ben Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 1/1 11:33am Subject: RE: But in the EU, It Says...™ - Interdiction at Endor
	Admiral_Stone posted: Re: Home One Palps seems to be the kind of villain that is so totally sure of their superiority that they don't need to kill the enemy leaders first. Just let them watch their buddies die and realize they're totally screwed, before killing them while feeding off their despair Indeed, it is the Way of the Sith. -----signature----- Excellence: "You are the forum's Quick Ben." SW EU fans: John Ostrander needs your help! http://www.comix4sight.com
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Matthew Trias Registered: Sep '99	Date Posted: 1/1 1:41pm Subject: RE: But in the EU, It Says...™ - Interdiction at Endor
	Maybe they ddn't know which ship was the flagship? -----signature----- Bushator vs Kerryien Whoever wins, we lose. Buy Exo Squad on DVD! You Won't Be Disappointed
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GarreT-42 Registered: Nov '08	Date Posted: 1/1 2:54pm Subject: RE: But in the EU, It Says...™ - Interdiction at Endor
	Re: Home One I think the Liberty was the much more famous target, at this point of the Galactic Civil War. The Liberty defeated the Vengeance in the Airam Sector and stopped the TIE Experimental Project, while I can't remember anything like that from the Home One before the battle of Endor. Besides from not being the command ship of the Rebels, the Liberty was probably the best known cruiser of the Rebels and therefore it made sense to destroy the Liberty first and demoralize the Rebels while keeping their command structure intact, so that they would stay and fight (and die - last part from a "Sith Point of View" of course). -----signature----- "There is no escape!"
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Ris_jSarek Registered: Feb '05	Date Posted: 1/1 11:30pm Subject: RE: But in the EU, It Says...™ - Interdiction at Endor
	Jedi Ben posted: Admiral_Stone posted: Re: Home One Palps seems to be the kind of villain that is so totally sure of their superiority that they don't need to kill the enemy leaders first. Just let them watch their buddies die and realize they're totally screwed, before killing them while feeding off their despair Indeed, it is the Way of the Sith. Moreover, the primary goal of Palpatine wasn't to destroy the Rebellion, but to turn Luke Skywalker. Many of the people with whom Luke was familiar that weren't either in the strike team or starfighters were aboard Home One. If you're going to make your play for his soul by claiming it's "the only way to save your friends," there need to be some friends left to save. -----signature----- http://churchofbrad.com/jsarek/ Proud recipient of Halagad_Ventor's MOO (Master of Obscurity) Award, Brett_Bass's Spiffy Crown™, and Thrawn McEwok's "Ohh...? Interesting..." Award™
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CooperTFN Title: TF.n EU Staff Emeritus Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 1/3 10:04am Subject: RE: But in the EU, It Says...™ - Interdiction at Endor
	posted: I also seem to recall some source that pinpointed the fleet trapped, even in a three-dimensional quasi-space, between the Death Star at Endor and the Imperial fleet which would keep "rotating" to keep the Rebels between the DS2 and them to prevent escape. Since the DS2 and Endor were all producing fairly large-sized gravity fields to begin with, that theoretically should have been enough to root the Rebel fleet there for annihilation. I'd love to know where that's from. Whatever gravity well the DS2 was creating, I would think it was swallowed up by Endor's anyway; and I'm having trouble with the idea of pinning an entire fleet down in 3D space. At this point in the battle, the way I'd always understood it is: ____________________ Endor ( o) DS2___<<[]> ______Rebels___\|=O=\| ______________Empire There's plenty of space for an exit vector the way they came in: straight down toward the middle area. The DS is in stationary orbit, so they could even drive pretty hard toward the left, away from the Imps, and still avoid the DS's surface defenses (and arguably make it harder for the superlaser to target them). Piett does say they're there to keep them from escaping (which is another comment that makes less sense if there are Interdictors waiting further away), but the Empire would've have to spread around them entirely to do that successfully, which doesn't seem to happen until the Rebels go on offense. Or was it more a matter of positioning the fleet so that if they did try to flee, he's ideally placed to move into a interception position? -----signature----- Mike Cooper's Star Wars Blog http://blogs.starwars.com/coopertfn "Your tongues can't repel flavor of that magnitude!" "NAKED TWI'LEK WITH LIGHTSABER = MONEY" - Ris_jSarek "I bid you all Dark Greetings!"
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CooperTFN Title: TF.n EU Staff Emeritus Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 1/11 8:51pm Subject: RE: But in the EU, It Says...™ - Interdiction at Endor
	Bump. Still like to hear someone's thoughts on that. ^ -----signature----- Mike Cooper's Star Wars Blog http://blogs.starwars.com/coopertfn "Your tongues can't repel flavor of that magnitude!" "NAKED TWI'LEK WITH LIGHTSABER = MONEY" - Ris_jSarek "I bid you all Dark Greetings!"
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Alpha-Red Registered: Apr '04	Date Posted: 1/12 6:39pm Subject: RE: But in the EU, It Says...™ - Interdiction at Endor
	I would think the Death Star itself is more than large enough to mount a couple of large gravity well projectors. Also, if Interdictors were brought in too close then it's just a matter of time before a Calamri Cruiser or a Y-wing squadron sinks its teeth into them.
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dp4m Registered: Nov '01	Date Posted: 1/13 10:40am Subject: RE: But in the EU, It Says...™ - Interdiction at Endor
	CooperTFN posted: Bump. Still like to hear someone's thoughts on that. ^ Your logic is "flawed" as, like Khan, it indicates two-dimensional thinking. There's no "down" there to flee. Basically, any Star Destroyer there is at LEAST equal to any Rebel capital ship and we saw how many SDs there were. If you think about everything starting in a straight line: IMPS ---- REBELS ---- DEATH STAR You have an infinite axis left/right [towards/away from you reading this from the "B" outwards](X/Y) and up/down (Z). But the Imperials have the advantage that they are further out than the Rebel fleet and can maneuver such as to STILL be between the Rebels and the Death Star, even while the Rebels are trying to make a break for it. Plus, combine a couple more factors: 1) Not all ships move the same; a break like what you're suggesting (and what Ackbar actually called for) would result in everyone moving at top-speed and losing the slow ships in a Darwin fashion. 2) Moving out of the "straight line" above creates a kill zone from the DS and the SDs where they are no longer in danger of hitting each othe, even as the Imps move into position to keep them trapped. It's why Lando's plan was a good one. -----signature----- "Looks like you're about to get pwned" - Eric Cartman "Awarding experience points for cleverly and creatively generating an enjoyable experience. How warped is that?" - Darths & Droids
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