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beccatoria Title: Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group Registered: Dec '06	Date Posted: 4/1 3:05am Subject: 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Han Solo and the Lost Legacy!
	Okay guys, we're back with the last of the trilogy - Han Solo and the Lost Legacy by Brian Daley. Here's a link to the TF.n staff reviews. Per usual, I'll kick us off with some discussion points and join in as we go! - So, this time it's Han Solo meets Indy. We've done the pulp space adventure, we've done the teaming-up-with-the-bad-guys intrigue adventure, what's left? Ancient shavit! Do you think it worked? What did you make of the mystical lost technology aspect? Or the hilarious fact that well before ROTJ was even in production, Han Solo had already survived at least one attempt by primitives to turn him into a human sacrifice while deifying robots? - The new characters - Badure and Hasti. Last novel I remember we discussed Han's last run in with an old comrade and how many of his former acquaintances were dead or in prison. Here's another example of someone in his line of work brought low by circumstance while Han's luck and tenacity keeps him going. And then there's Hasti. She's had a tough life and is a different type of "love interest" if she can be counted as one at all. Did you like her character? Do you think she added anything interesting? - Gallandro - a fairly large re-introduction for a sudden end. Did you find his convenient death entertaining and apt, or irritating and lazy, or something in between? - Bollux and Blue Max. OMG YOU GUYS I WILL MISS THEM. sniffles Did you like their send off? I'll break into personal commentary for a moment to say that I think they'll have a great time at the University but I did with that they'd gotten a proper goodbye scene with Han. - Finally, a general retrospective. Do the books still hold up? As a trilogy, which was your favourite? Were there any weak links? Take it away! Next month we will be discussing Shadows of the Empire by Steve Perry. -----signature----- legatus imperatoris britanniæ superior REMEMBER: X-WING: WEDGE'S GAMBLE DISCUSSION STARTS IN DECEMBER! Han's a girl, so I got a Golden Ewok.
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 4/1 9:24am Subject: 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Han Solo and the Lost Legacy!
	I think that Han Solo and the Lost Legacy's most interesting scene is the death of Gallandro. I've heard people comment that the way that he died was cheap and uninteresting, but I think it ignores the most interesting and incredibly relevant portion. Gallandro beat Han Solo and the other heroes completely. Han Solo, our protagonist, has a historic quick draw gunfight with Gallandro and loses. I personally liked that establishment that Gallandro was just plain flat out BETTER than Han Solo at being a gunfighter. I think it's rather amusing to realize that this came out two years before Raiders of the Lost Ark but shares the same basic theme in it. Rather than the bad guy getting dispatched by the hero, he's instead destroyed by the very greed for something he doesn't understand. Now, obviously, Raiders did it much better and more dramatically but I personally like the theme of it. Gallandro dies undefeated.
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Liliedhe Registered: Feb '09	Date Posted: 4/2 1:55am Subject: 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Han Solo and the Lost Legacy!
	beccatoria posted: Okay guys, we're back with the last of the trilogy - Han Solo and the Lost Legacy by Brian Daley. Here's a link to the TF.n staff reviews. Per usual, I'll kick us off with some discussion points and join in as we go! - So, this time it's Han Solo meets Indy. We've done the pulp space adventure, we've done the teaming-up-with-the-bad-guys intrigue adventure, what's left? Ancient shavit! Do you think it worked? What did you make of the mystical lost technology aspect? Or the hilarious fact that well before ROTJ was even in production, Han Solo had already survived at least one attempt by primitives to turn him into a human sacrifice while deifying robots? I feel pathetic that I never got that^^. beccatoria posted: - The new characters - Badure and Hasti. Last novel I remember we discussed Han's last run in with an old comrade and how many of his former acquaintances were dead or in prison. Here's another example of someone in his line of work brought low by circumstance while Han's luck and tenacity keeps him going. And then there's Hasti. She's had a tough life and is a different type of "love interest" if she can be counted as one at all. Did you like her character? Do you think she added anything interesting? Hasti was ok, although her pretty uninspired change from "average" to "gorgeous" was kinda trite. Also, it made no sense that her sister would just be able to change into evening clothes while piloting a ship and escaping from natives? This was more like "there has to be a gorgeous woman in a book" than anything that made any sense. Still, I liked her, and I don't think she can be called love interest at all - there were no sparks between her and Han and he was quite unflattering to her. Also, she was one of the very few "normal people" you meet in Star Wars. She wasn't a fringer, a soldier, a Jedi or a politician, but just a civilian. There aren't many of those. beccatoria posted: - Gallandro - a fairly large re-introduction for a sudden end. Did you find his convenient death entertaining and apt, or irritating and lazy, or something in between? Well, what I mind isn't his Deus Ex Machina death. I mind that the character who was so professional and defied the stereotypes in the last book (when he just walked away because he wasn't paid to do that) suddenly becomes a pretty standard Vegeta-like obsessed villain who wants Revenge on Solo and to prove he's better. That and that he wasn't content with defeating Han, but had to go for killing him and everyone else which was out of character, considering the other portrayal. beccatoria posted: - Bollux and Blue Max. OMG YOU GUYS I WILL MISS THEM. sniffles Did you like their send off? I'll break into personal commentary for a moment to say that I think they'll have a great time at the University but I did with that they'd gotten a proper goodbye scene with Han. I kinda disliked how ... summarily they were written out. They keep hanging around with Han for so long, and then they just got send off as a sidenote. Well, at least they weren't turned into scrap metal^^. beccatoria posted: - Finally, a general retrospective. Do the books still hold up? As a trilogy, which was your favourite? Were there any weak links? Yes, the books still hold up. They are still fun and interesting, even though the various finales were rather ... rushed and occasionally defying suspension of disbelief. They are very different in tone from pretty much everything else I've read in Star Wars, but that doesn't make them bad. The tone fits Han Solo. It wouldn't fit anybody else (except maybe Lando). If I had to sum them up... Well, the books consist of some clichés, some brilliant and fun ideas, and some weirdness. But, the writing style, the characterization and the charme are so top notch, that the weaknesses don't matter. On a personal note I would compare them to Michael Stackpole's Shadowrun books, which have pretty much nothing to do with the Shadowrun universe and break the 'rules' quite often - but they are so well written that one doesn't care. My favourite was the last one. Star's End had a finale that was just too much and in Han Solo's Revenge Fiolla got on my nerves... But I liked the ancient mystery angle and the planet in Lost Legacy. And the little archeologist. ^^ -----signature----- Joint Winner - PT Trivia Challenge 18+New Edition
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beccatoria Title: Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group Registered: Dec '06	Date Posted: 4/2 1:44pm Subject: 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Han Solo and the Lost Legacy!
	I'll deal with the Gallandro issue first. I agree with Charlie that it's actually kind of awesome the way he's built up as better than Han Solo and actually turns out to just flat out be better than Han. I also didn't have a particular problem with his cruelty to the others. I understand Liliedhe's point that he seemed practical more than psychotic or sadistic, but I think that there's a cold practicality in his need to maintain his reputation, and that cold practicality/desire for vengeance kind of passes on to anyone who might carry the tale back unfavourably/would be too much trouble to dispose of non-lethally. I didn't so much see him as out for revenge to prove he was better than Solo - he knew he was better. It was more revenge for showing him up/not allowing anyone else to think that Solo might be better which is probably equal parts pride and professionalism? I'm not sure how I feel about his death. On the one hand, I don't have a particular problem with him dying after having beaten Han in some quick trick - you know, a plot device designed to take him out and wrap up the story. On the other hand, I guess I can see that this particular method of disposal is a little contrived? Even for these crazy pulpy adventures where every ten pages is a different mini-adventure? (Side note: I enjoy this about them.) Liliedhe posted: Also, she was one of the very few "normal people" you meet in Star Wars. She wasn't a fringer, a soldier, a Jedi or a politician, but just a civilian. There aren't many of those. Good point - I hadn't considered it from that angle. I did think that her getting dressed up was a little silly, actually. I know that her sister was of much higher status and these novels are good at adding lots of flavour and culture, so hey, maybe having a Pilot's license really did mean you could swan around in evening wear when you weren't on the ship. But I thought that the difference between the sisters - Hasti not having had the same chances as Lanni - were interesting. While I accept both the pulp trope her dressing up was trying to evoke and the need for a significant visual change to mark her impersonation of Lanni, I did find myself wondering how she knew how to dress up with enough finesse that Han - who is extremely good at reading people - was shocked to know that she could. I was imagining like...Hollywood make-up artist levels of skill. So to me it was some giant neon sign blaring, "CAUTION: GIRL IS LYING ABOUT HER BACKGROUND." But apparently not. So, I'm not entirely sure what to make of that. I found her more interesting than Badure anyway. Who wasn't bad or anything, just...a little bland. I felt bad for the dude, having fallen on some really hard times, but essentially he was the Old Timer with a Tip and not a lot more. Liliedhe posted: I kinda disliked how ... summarily they were written out. They keep hanging around with Han for so long, and then they just got send off as a sidenote. Well, at least they weren't turned into scrap metal^^. I'm completely torn on this one. On the one hand, pretty much everything is ended summarily in these novels. It's kind of the style. Things happen quickly and are wrapped up quickly. But then again, I felt the loss of a goodbye scene quite keenly. So the sudden decision to leave Han and go off to what is, presumably, a good life that will ensure Bollux remains useful and usable for a long time to come, isn't what bothered me so much as the lack of even four lines of dialogue where Han slaps Bollux on the shoulder, wishes him well, and tells him he'll miss him? Oh well. It was still a fun book. I've really enjoyed this trilogy - a lot more than I thought I would. I'm not sure it's generated as much discussion as it might, but it's just plain fun. I think my favourite sequence, just in terms of sheer, "WTK? Can you do that?!" factor was probably the climax of the first novel when they blow part of the building into orbit. But this book is probably my favourite in terms of storyline. I'm not sure it's the best put together or the best written, but personally, I really dug the ancient crazy space history tomb raiding feel. -----signature----- legatus imperatoris britanniæ superior REMEMBER: X-WING: WEDGE'S GAMBLE DISCUSSION STARTS IN DECEMBER! Han's a girl, so I got a Golden Ewok.
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Liliedhe Registered: Feb '09	Date Posted: 4/2 2:10pm Subject: 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Han Solo and the Lost Legacy!
	beccatoria posted: I did think that her getting dressed up was a little silly, actually. I know that her sister was of much higher status and these novels are good at adding lots of flavour and culture, so hey, maybe having a Pilot's license really did mean you could swan around in evening wear when you weren't on the ship. But I thought that the difference between the sisters - Hasti not having had the same chances as Lanni - were interesting. While I accept both the pulp trope her dressing up was trying to evoke and the need for a significant visual change to mark her impersonation of Lanni, I did find myself wondering how she knew how to dress up with enough finesse that Han - who is extremely good at reading people - was shocked to know that she could. I was imagining like...Hollywood make-up artist levels of skill. So to me it was some giant neon sign blaring, "CAUTION: GIRL IS LYING ABOUT HER BACKGROUND." But apparently not. So, I'm not entirely sure what to make of that. Well, it's probably in the tradition of those movies where women get all sexy by taking their glasses off, which is also a staple of pulp stories (like The Mummy). beccatoria posted: I've really enjoyed this trilogy - a lot more than I thought I would. I'm not sure it's generated as much discussion as it might, but it's just plain fun. I think my favourite sequence, just in terms of sheer, "WTK? Can you do that?!" factor was probably the climax of the first novel when they blow part of the building into orbit. But this book is probably my favourite in terms of storyline. I'm not sure it's the best put together or the best written, but personally, I really dug the ancient crazy space history tomb raiding feel. G I read this trilogy after the Lando Calrissian Adventures which were utterly horrible. So Bad it's Horrible. In turn, I didn't expect much here, but the quality of the writing and the sheer amount of imagination surprised me positively. Oh yes, it was just fun. I like to read Star Wars because it makes me think, and this was markedly different, but it was - as you said - just plain FUN. There isn't much to discuss, the books weren't that deep, and they have almost no connection to the rest of the Star Wars Universe... but I didn't mind. Although it would have been cool if Rekkon from the first book had been a Jedi in hiding.^^ -----signature----- Joint Winner - PT Trivia Challenge 18+New Edition
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MistrX Registered: Jun '06	Date Posted: 4/2 9:40pm Subject: 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Han Solo and the Lost Legacy!
	When I first read this trilogy, my favorite of the three was probably Revenge. Rereading it, though, this one may beat it. I think a big part of it is that this story has my favorite ensemble. Han, Chewie, vengeful sister Hasti, old and over-the-hill mentore Badure, academic and thrill-seeking Skynx, and of course Bollux and Blue Max. That's really something I should give credit to all three books. Each gave us a fun little group of companions for Han, Chewie, Bollux, and Max, diverse in their ways, and it's something I wish we saw in the current adventures of our Big 3. Something that really stands out for me in this one is the ending. What I think is well done is Han's reaction to it. It's great to see Han and Chewie get what they work for, that one big score. It's a moment of elation, but it's wonderful to also see it as a moment of doubt. We've been getting little seeds of that throughout the trilogy, of how long Han can keep this life up, if there's more out there than what he does, and if he could handle any other life. It's a good lead-in to the character he becomes in the latter half of the trilogy, after getting a life mission he can't shake with the Rebellion, even better given the fact that these books were out before the movies were. What I wasn't a big fan of with the end is that it was kind of abrupt. They find the treasure's obsolete, everyone decides what to do with their life from then on, and Han and Chewie get at it, already planning their next job. It rang somewhat false to me, especially given that Bollux and Blue Max, whom Han was apparently happy enough to make "full crew members" a chapter or two before, are leaving. We don't really get a reaction from Han or Chewie, even though they've been traveling, working, and adventuring with both droids for three books now. A good bye, or some reaction at all would have been nice to see. Gallandro's presence in the story felt a bit too short, as well, though it was nice to see the inevitable betrayal after seeming to hook up with them for a chapter or so. Other than that, though, maybe my favorite story of the three. I'd also forgotten that Han and Chewie had left the Corporate Sector behind by this point. It's fun to get a look at another isolated sector of space, though this one is a little less defined than the Corporate Sector, with not as much distinguishing it other than being poor and behind the times. beccatoria posted: - So, this time it's Han Solo meets Indy. We've done the pulp space adventure, we've done the teaming-up-with-the-bad-guys intrigue adventure, what's left? Ancient shavit! Do you think it worked? What did you make of the mystical lost technology aspect? Or the hilarious fact that well before ROTJ was even in production, Han Solo had already survived at least one attempt by primitives to turn him into a human sacrifice while deifying robots? While reading it, that never really crossed my mind. Maybe it was the fact that I'm used to some planetbound adventures in Star Wars, or that they were traveling with a sentient, academic bug, or the acquiring of a new, hovering getaway vehicle ever few moments. So yeah, I would say it worked for me. I think knowing something about Xim as well and exactly what it was they were looking for added some of the old, ancient galaxy feel to it as well, making really feel like the ancient Star Wars galaxy. And I did think about the Ewoks when Han and co. were going to be sacrificed. I guess he was used to it by the time he ended up on Endor. It was still a pretty funny coincidence to get to see. beccatoria posted: - The new characters - Badure and Hasti. Last novel I remember we discussed Han's last run in with an old comrade and how many of his former acquaintances were dead or in prison. Here's another example of someone in his line of work brought low by circumstance while Han's luck and tenacity keeps him going. And then there's Hasti. She's had a tough life and is a different type of "love interest" if she can be counted as one at all. Did you like her character? Do you think she added anything interesting? They were all right additions to the crew. Badure was interesting to see, getting a look at a man who had a similar path to Han's but had lived much more and seeing a potential future for Han. Even an ex-Imperial who had turned to another life after service. It was nice to see a view of some of Han's past through him, and seeing that relationship. Hasti was also an interesting addition. A tough life and she's seen a lot. However, with her, the anger I felt there should have been concerning her sister didn't often seem like it was there. I wish that had been more genuine. And I've never been a fan of the "she-despises-him-but-comes-to-love-the-charming-and-positive-qualities-as-the-adventure-progresses" cliché. That way, there could be something of a romance without carrying any consequences on. Now her dead sister Lanni, that'd be an interesting character to hear about. She seems even more capable than her sister, especially when we learn what our crew thinks she did to find the information on Xim's cache. That'd be interesting to see. And don't forget about Skynx. Truth be told, of the new characters introduced into this story, he's undoubtedly my favorite. Maybe it's the idea of a sentient larva going on an adventure with our heroes. We don't often get non-humanoid aliens along for the ride, so he's great to read about. I like that he wants to go on a "human-style" adventure, that he wants to live in the short time that he has before he becomes a mindless moth. He brings an energy to the story that I really liked reading about. And the first time I read it, I imagined him as a centipede, so that was cool, too. beccatoria posted: - Gallandro - a fairly large re-introduction for a sudden end. Did you find his convenient death entertaining and apt, or irritating and lazy, or something in between? I was rather surprised to realize that his presence had been much smaller than I had remembered. His thing with Han was really one-way, so with a thing like Fett these days, it seemed rather minor. It was nice to see someone who was more than a match for the great Han Solo, though, not to mention undone by his own arrogance. Always something to look out for in Star Wars stories. It worked for me, because outsmarting a superior opponent is often an interesting way to go. beccatoria posted: - Bollux and Blue Max.. OMG YOU GUYS I WILL MISS THEM. sniffles Did you like their send off? I'll break into personal commentary for a moment to say that I think they'll have a great time at the University but I did with that they'd gotten a proper goodbye scene with Han. Exactly! They were wonderful characters and it's a shame they're contained to just this trilogy. That's exactly the sentiment I had. With what we had of them, they deserved more closure. beccatoria posted: - Finally, a general retrospective. Do the books still hold up? As a trilogy, which was your favourite? Were there any weak links? They work and they work well. I love the stories of the galaxy's underworld and the crazy pre-Rebellion days of Han and Chewbacca. Even after all of this time, with the books set in the Corporate Sector and the Tion Hegemony, they don't clash all that much with the material that came later. They're fun books and continue to be exciting chapters in Star Wars canon. Like I noted above, I think this story is my favorite at the moment. I know for sure that Stars' End is still the weakest link for me personally. I think a lot of that is the latter two flowed better for me. Charlemagne19 posted: I think that Han Solo and the Lost Legacy's most interesting scene is the death of Gallandro. I've heard people comment that the way that he died was cheap and uninteresting, but I think it ignores the most interesting and incredibly relevant portion. Gallandro beat Han Solo and the other heroes completely. Han Solo, our protagonist, has a historic quick draw gunfight with Gallandro and loses. I personally liked that establishment that Gallandro was just plain flat out BETTER than Han Solo at being a gunfighter. ... Gallandro dies undefeated. Except for the fact that he's outsmarted by Skynx, which I think is brilliant. Possibly the least physically threatening of the entire group takes the actions that lead directly to Gallandro's death. It's a wonderful thing to see Skynx use the assets he has to defeat the deadlier enemy and a fine ending for his personal adventure. Liliedhe posted: [quote=beccatoria]- Gallandro - a fairly large re-introduction for a sudden end. Did you find his convenient death entertaining and apt, or irritating and lazy, or something in between? Well, what I mind isn't his Deus Ex Machina death. I mind that the character who was so professional and defied the stereotypes in the last book (when he just walked away because he wasn't paid to do that) suddenly becomes a pretty standard Vegeta-like obsessed villain who wants Revenge on Solo and to prove he's better. That and that he wasn't content with defeating Han, but had to go for killing him and everyone else which was out of character, considering the other portrayal. [/quote] Yeah, it did seem like up until the end of book 3, we were more told than shown he was an amoral killer, like he just gave Han that feeling. I was less impressed with that, even though it was expected. -----signature----- We are well and truly forked
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 4/3 12:30am Subject: 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Han Solo and the Lost Legacy! - Date Edited: 4/3 12:32am (1 edits total) Edited By: Charlemagne19
	For me, I liked Gallandro because there's a very classic story behind the "Best Gunfighter in the Old West." It's something that's better remembered in parody than the original. Basically, things like the Twilight Zone episode with the pool hall and other works where people are obsessed with being known as the Best. Gallandro is the predecessor with people in the EU speculating on who was the No. 1# bounty hunter in the Galaxy. Gallandro, up until the point where he's outgunned by Han Solo due to a trick, is the best in the Star Wars galaxy. It's his thing. Like Boba Fett, he can't command the kind of fees that he presumably normally does if people think he's No. 2# in the galaxy. If it seems to be something silly, let's remember Gallandro is a man (at least at this point) with no family or friends. All that matters to him is his belief that he's the best Gunslinger in the galaxy. Ultimately, defeating Han means that he has to die somehow at this point. The fact that he dies because "of a curse on the Tomb of Pharoah" is what Brian Daley was clearly going for. I'll be honest that I don't think it worked out very well. Still, I think it was a good idea that Gallandro does die because of the Mummy's Curse equivalent. It's something that couldn't be guarded against by force of arms but only knowledge. So I didn't mind Gallandro's portrayal. Honestly, were I to rewrite Gallandro's ending, I would have just gotten rid of the man dying at all. Instead, Gallandro would end up discovering that the "Treasure" of Xim the Despot was valueless and miss the rest of it and simply leave. Having defeated Han, he's settled his business with the man and doesn't care whether he lives or dies. Unfortunately, Gallandro's actions were so cruel and merciless during the book that there was no way he could be allowed to just walk off into the sunset. Gallandro comes from a time before Daala and Boba Fett when villains had to pay a penalty for their crimes. I am actually rather disappointed that Han Solo doesn't have much in the way of a love interest in this book. My favorite of Han Solo's girlfriends in the trilogy was Jessa followed by Fiolla. I honestly don't cnsider the girl of this book to be anything more than theoretical arm candy. I'm actually grateful for the later Han Solo trilogy because the adult relationships depicted there were much more refreshing to me. One thing I would have preferred was a better set up for the still functioning after 20,000 Years Droid Army of Xim the Despot. Before the Phantom Menace, this was very impressive.
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MistrX Registered: Jun '06	Date Posted: 4/3 9:33am Subject: 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Han Solo and the Lost Legacy!
	Charlemagne19 posted: Ultimately, defeating Han means that he has to die somehow at this point. The fact that he dies because "of a curse on the Tomb of Pharoah" is what Brian Daley was clearly going for. I'll be honest that I don't think it worked out very well. Still, I think it was a good idea that Gallandro does die because of the Mummy's Curse equivalent. It's something that couldn't be guarded against by force of arms but only knowledge. I think that makes it more of falling to a booby trap than anything else. But I do agree that it's something one needs knowledge to defeat, which is what Skynx is able to take advantage of. Actually, that does bring in shades of the beginning of Raiders and the end of Last Crusade now that I'm thinking about it. Charlemagne19 posted: I am actually rather disappointed that Han Solo doesn't have much in the way of a love interest in this book. My favorite of Han Solo's girlfriends in the trilogy was Jessa followed by Fiolla. I honestly don't cnsider the girl of this book to be anything more than theoretical arm candy. I'm actually grateful for the later Han Solo trilogy because the adult relationships depicted there were much more refreshing to me. That's actually how I feel mostly about Jessa. I think because she was only really in about half of Stars' End, she felt the least like a love interest to me. Maybe because it seemed that she was the one Han had to work for least on a personal level. It seemed like if he brought Dad back, he'd be in her good graces, while the following two was more of a build up, one that yielded positive results for Han and one that went nowhere. And I'm glad one of them ended up not going with him since that gives a different end to that particular situation. -----signature----- We are well and truly forked
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beccatoria Title: Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group Registered: Dec '06	Date Posted: 4/3 12:38pm Subject: 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Han Solo and the Lost Legacy!
	Liliedhe posted: Well, it's probably in the tradition of those movies where women get all sexy by taking their glasses off, which is also a staple of pulp stories (like The Mummy). Yes, which is silly! When will people learn that glasses are sexy! Liliedhe posted: I read this trilogy after the Lando Calrissian Adventures which were utterly horrible. So Bad it's Horrible. NOOOOO! I refuse to believe books starring Lando are awful! Seriously, you'll make me sad, I was looking forward to reading through those eventually. I heard all sorts of awesome tripped out shavit happened and the bad guy was some magical snail... It sounded awesome. MistrX posted: It rang somewhat false to me, especially given that Bollux and Blue Max, whom Han was apparently happy enough to make "full crew members" a chapter or two before, are leaving. We don't really get a reaction from Han or Chewie, even though they've been traveling, working, and adventuring with both droids for three books now. Agreed. I thought it was a nice end for the characters at the end of the trilogy but we needed some acknowledgement of it from Han and Chewie. I mean, Fiolla got a better sendoff that that and she was a one-book character! MistrX posted: It's fun to get a look at another isolated sector of space, though this one is a little less defined than the Corporate Sector, with not as much distinguishing it other than being poor and behind the times. I didn't mind that so much. Yes there was a lack of detail about the flavour of the sector in general but I think that's because it was so backwater it didn't really have a direct flavour. Sure, some more information about the Tion Hegemony would have been great, but at the same time, I think Daley was focusing on the weird little cultural idiosyncrasies of the locals? That said, I shouldn't treat the two issues as mutually exclusive, as the Corporate Sector setting stuff shows. I just mean to say - your point may be valid, but it wasn't something that I noticed. I still got the same sense of entertaining and occasionally surreal detail as always. MistrX posted: However, with her, the anger I felt there should have been concerning her sister didn't often seem like it was there. I wish that had been more genuine. And I've never been a fan of the "she-despises-him-but-comes-to-love-the-charming-and-positive-qualities-as-the-adventure-progresses" cliché. That way, there could be something of a romance without carrying any consequences on. I do agree that her anger about Lanni didn't ring quite as...true as it might have. I actually found that kind of interesting because it made her very practical to me. Yes, she was sad about her sister's death but - and I might totally be reading a lot into this - there's also this aspect that she'd had this really hard life while her sister had had a much better one because she inherited her father's pilot's license, and so there was this feeling of, well, if she's gone, then she's gone so I'm gonna make sure it wasn't for nothing. Whatever she died for, I want it now. I don't mean that to come off as...mercenary as it sounds. I don't think she was glad that Lanni died or anything, just that her overwhelming emotional reaction by now really did strike me less as anger-vengeance and more as practical-desire-not-to-let-it-go-to-waste. I'm not a huge fan of the cliche you mention either. I kind of hate it, with very few exceptions (say, Han and Leia - although listening to the Radio Drama version really gave me an appreciation of how much the actors brought to that). I felt this was a little different since with the exception of that one kiss they really didn't have a romance going on and Hasti kind of, put a stop to it and stuck by her opinion on the matter. Though it was definitely a use of that stereotypical story and since I don't like that story so much, it probably contributed to my not really enjoying her character as much as I did either Jessa or even Fiolla. MistrX posted: He brings an energy to the story that I really liked reading about. And the first time I read it, I imagined him as a centipede, so that was cool, too. I loved Skynx! Although I spent most of the story imagining him as a little lizard because I kept thinking of "Skinks" from Warhammer. Charlemagne19 posted: Ultimately, defeating Han means that he has to die somehow at this point. The fact that he dies because "of a curse on the Tomb of Pharoah" is what Brian Daley was clearly going for. I'll be honest that I don't think it worked out very well. Still, I think it was a good idea that Gallandro does die because of the Mummy's Curse equivalent. It's something that couldn't be guarded against by force of arms but only knowledge. Interesting. I hadn't thought about it in those archetypal terms before. I'll agree that it's a nice way of dealing with Gallandro while still allowing him to retain his skill and his being objectively better than Solo. Although I also think that the execution of the "Mummy's Curse" equivalent could have been perhaps a little more seamless. If I had a problem with it (and if so, it's not a huge one), it was just that the "trick" that caught him seemed a little simplistic and made Gallandro look perhaps a fraction more ignorant and arrogant than was necessary, while a more surprising twist might have worked a little better? I do like your idea of him winning, then simply walking away because the treasure wasn't worth enough to him and he'd proved his point though. That would have been very interesting. Charlemagne19 posted: One thing I would have preferred was a better set up for the still functioning after 20,000 Years Droid Army of Xim the Despot. Before the Phantom Menace, this was very impressive. I honestly still got a fantastic sense of scope from that and loved it. -----signature----- legatus imperatoris britanniæ superior REMEMBER: X-WING: WEDGE'S GAMBLE DISCUSSION STARTS IN DECEMBER! Han's a girl, so I got a Golden Ewok.
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Havac Title: Lit Mod of War Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 4/3 11:44pm Subject: 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Han Solo and the Lost Legacy!
	The Lando Adventures are awful in an awesome way. There are sometimes where they're so trippy and weird and awful that yes, they are just plain bad . . . but most of the time they're fan-frigging-tastic. They're like if you had the hilarious what-the-hell zaniness of GODV without the rampant stupidity, and with some genuinely interesting plotlines and characterization. To be honest, I don't enjoy HSATLL as much as I do the previous two. It's still a great Daley adventure, but it trades in the planet-hopping pulpy adventure and fast ships and blasters for a slog across one planet. It's got its great moments, especially with Gallandro, and the fight at the mining camp, and reveal of the treasure, but I just felt like it wasn't as much pure pulpy fun and didn't take advantage of the universe quite as well. If you look at Raiders or The Last Crusade, you see that they do the same sort of cool pulpy search-for-treasure plotline, but they have that globe-spanning fast-moving pace that makes them such rollicking fun, whereas this just didn't have quite the same breakneck pace and broad scope. It wasn't bad, but it could have been better. That said, I don't have any trouble with Gallandro's death. He was the fastest gun in the West, and he was better than Han -- a great touch, and probably the best possible ending. But to have a showdown with Gallandro being better, you either need Gallandro to somehow let Han go, which softens the character a bit too much, or have something else take care of him before he takes care of Han. Having him outwitted and essentially struck down by the hand of God right as he just proved that he's at the top of his game . . . well, I like it. To bring in Raiders and TLC again (far and away the best Indy movies), it parallels those endings, in which the hero, though scrappy and able to more than hold his own, cannot beat the villains all on his own but survives where the treasure strikes them down due to his superior intelligence and virtue. It's a great pulp resolution, and I think Daley carries it off well here. -----signature----- "Is there a captain's hat involved in this?"
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Arawn_Fenn Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 4/6 5:01pm Subject: 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Han Solo and the Lost Legacy!
	Charlemagne19 posted: One thing I would have preferred was a better set up for the still functioning after 20,000 Years Droid Army of Xim the Despot. Before the Phantom Menace, this was very impressive. Well, that's just it. Daley doesn't seem to think the Republic's been around for 25,000 years. It's a continuity oversight in the book. Xim's vault is cited as having been sealed centuries ago. An odd way to refer to twenty-five millennia, isn't it? -----signature----- His legions, angel forms, who lay entranced. Thick as autumnal leaves that strow the brooks. <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> "Why don't you take your simplistic good/evil dualism and found Zoroastrianism?" - zweebex
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Havac Title: Lit Mod of War Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 4/6 9:46pm Subject: 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Han Solo and the Lost Legacy!
	I just have to comment on how perfectly Daley nails Han's characterization. He shows Han as a truly complex character, and makes great use of the fact that this is before ANH and before Han really became a hero. I think it really benefits from having only ANH to really go by (though it looks like Daley had some access to TESB material) as he really nails that cocky, youthful, mouthy swagger rather than the more dutiful Rebellion-influenced Han. A lot of works rely on sort of a caricature of TESB Han, but Daley really rounds him out. He's got a heart of gold, yes -- but this is before he's really putting it to use. It's still buried deep, deep beneath a cynical exterior that's as much fact as fiction, rather than the gruff but pure-hearted Solo you see in most other material. He's a genuine scoundrel, not just a lovable rogue. He is, fundamentally, a great big college kid; he wants to party hard, work easy, drink his pay away, pick up a new woman each night, and live for pleasure. Han might be 27, 28, but he isn't mature yet. He's still stuck in a sort of advanced adolescence. If he didn't have a fast ship and a big blaster, he'd be sitting on a beanbag chair in a rundown apartment with Chewie playing video games and drinking Keystone Light before he goes off to work at the convenience store. Oh, god, he's Tim Bisley. Perhaps the best thing Daley does is not only show that Han, despite being a lovable rogue, is a scoundrel who's really far from perfect -- he also has Hasti call him on it. After two novels in which Han's effortless charm won over the skeptical ladies, we finally get a woman who sees his act, and says, yeah, he'll get the heart fluttering, but he's heartbreak waiting to happen. He's a great big overgrown kid with no sense of responsibility, no stability in his life, no long-term prospects. And Han can't refute her. It's a very daring thing to do with your protagonist, and Daley totally pulled it off. At the same time, he also shows that Han is completely and utterly competent. He and Chewie might have bad luck, but they're at the absolute top of their game. They're total professionals. They can fly anything under the sun, beat anyone in a barfight, outshoot anyone but Gallandro, and execute commando raids that would make Judder Page jealous. Just the little things, like Han and Chewie having this well-used communication system of hand signals, and effortlessly performing military-worthy scouting out on the plains -- these are guys who know their damn business, and not just behind the controls of a ship. Gallandro, too, was great. He's built up even more into a legend here, and he delivers on it; the guy is suave while being menacing, but you can see the sheer animal violence that's restrained behind the polite, elegant veneer. Perhaps most chilling is when he's playing buddies with Han, and the guy loosens up. All of a sudden this cold contract killer is loose, joking around with Solo, making smartass reminiscences about the joy of knocking over banks. It's disarming (especially as it comes right before he turns on Han and he teamed up with them in the mining camp battle, and we're starting to wonder if we might be able to see him as a good guy or if he's really still a baddie and hiding it) and yet it's a whole new level of disturbingly menacing. I don't buy the idea that he was diminished here; we saw in HSR that Gallandro might have put up the image of a cool cat, but he only backed out of the duel because it was part of his plan. He's clearly a guy who's desperate to prove himself against Han; as a professional obsessed with his skill and his reputation, he can't stand not knowing, not being able to prove, that he's faster than this son of a murglak. Solo's given him lip and thinks he's hot stuff; Gallandro's got to show him who's boss. There's got to be a showdown. He might charmingly talk about "another time" but he's gritting his teeth and waiting for another time. Here, we see him setting out to get another time. This guy thinks he's a hotshot? Gallandro wants to prove he isn't. And of course, gnawing at the back of his mind, is the idea that maybe, just maybe, he is. Maybe this cocky kid really is everything he acts like he is. It's not necessarily a deep personal hatred, or a mad quest for revenge; it's this sort of very professional Old West gunslinger idea of honor. It's a big thing to be top dog. You can't be pushed around. And reputation is everything. If guys start going around saying they're better than you, defying you, you can bet it's going to end with you backing him down or killing him, or else your reputation is shot, and what do you have then? Who's going to employ you? Will the hush when you walk into a bar be laughter instead now? It's a total old-school man thing that's professional as much as it is personal, and I totally get it. My one disappointment in characterization is Badure. He's a great character with great potential, but we don't really see it realized. He's this grizzled military vet, a crack combat pilot and a man with years of underworld experience. This is the guy who taught Han at the Academy, the guy who helped make him what he is. The guy who taught Han a trick or two. Play it up. Show us how badass this guy is. Make him a really valuable part of the team. Let him and Han swagger around in their Imperial flight jackets and show what a pair of old pros can do. Instead, we get Han totally running the show, with Badure just a kind of insignificant old-timer who yes-mans Han and sits around in the background. The only time his backstory was really tapped at all was when he told the (admittedly great) academy story that served entirely as a puff piece for Han and did nothing to establish Badure. While I appreciate the fact that Han's the main character, and you want him to stand out as the big protagonist, Badure's potential just seemed wasted. Han was already shown in a spectacular light as a competent warrior; we didn't really need the credible old-timer sitting around eagerly following the kid's lead. It just seems a bit like an oversell, and it didn't do the character himself any favors. -----signature----- "Is there a captain's hat involved in this?"
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beccatoria Title: Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group Registered: Dec '06	Date Posted: 4/7 2:15pm Subject: 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Han Solo and the Lost Legacy!
	Havac posted: My one disappointment in characterization is Badure. He's a great character with great potential, but we don't really see it realized. He's this grizzled military vet, a crack combat pilot and a man with years of underworld experience. This is the guy who taught Han at the Academy, the guy who helped make him what he is. The guy who taught Han a trick or two. Play it up. Show us how badass this guy is. Make him a really valuable part of the team. Let him and Han swagger around in their Imperial flight jackets and show what a pair of old pros can do. Instead, we get Han totally running the show, with Badure just a kind of insignificant old-timer who yes-mans Han and sits around in the background. The only time his backstory was really tapped at all was when he told the (admittedly great) academy story that served entirely as a puff piece for Han and did nothing to establish Badure. While I appreciate the fact that Han's the main character, and you want him to stand out as the big protagonist, Badure's potential just seemed wasted. Han was already shown in a spectacular light as a competent warrior; we didn't really need the credible old-timer sitting around eagerly following the kid's lead. It just seems a bit like an oversell, and it didn't do the character himself any favors. Huh. Wow, that totally didn't occur to me. And really, it's an excellent point. I absolutely dismissed Badure as a functional cliche - the old timer to make Han look good. A nice guy to reminisce with. A warning against the hard times Han could fall on. But I didn't really consider the character from his own perspective. I gave the book a pass on that because most of these novels are chock-full of pulp cliches and handle them well. But that does mean that I'm less likely to be disappointed when something that could have been done more excellently, well, isn't. And while he does just fine as a stock character, he could have been much more. He definitely did come across as... I won't use the word pathetic, but as a reader I really worried about him and was more relieved than pleased for him that he had a safe future so that I could stop worrying about him. Worrying in the sense that you worry when you think an old person might be confused and scared - that kind of...distressing pity? I guess, in a hilarious way, Badure was kind of the novel's damsel in distress. -----signature----- legatus imperatoris britanniæ superior REMEMBER: X-WING: WEDGE'S GAMBLE DISCUSSION STARTS IN DECEMBER! Han's a girl, so I got a Golden Ewok.
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MistrX Registered: Jun '06	Date Posted: 4/7 8:53pm Subject: 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Han Solo and the Lost Legacy! - Date Edited: 4/7 8:54pm (1 edits total) Edited By: MistrX
	The thing I got with Badure is that he was meant to be the old, washed-up, past his prime former teacher. He's Han's obsolete mentor and really does serve as the MacGuffin for the story to begin, after which he's just there. It's true that he doesn't get so defined, though I think I expected that. A book like this seemed to want to focus on story and adventure more than characters (though it did get quite a bit of that in, too, or tried at least). Thinking back, Badure and Hasti both just feel a bit off to me. -----signature----- We are well and truly forked
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Tyber_Zahn Registered: Sep '08	Date Posted: 4/8 1:17am Subject: 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Han Solo and the Lost Legacy!
	The age of the Republic was established in ANH by Obi-Wan as being 1000 generations. A generation being 20 years that makes it 20,000 years old so I'm sure Daley was well aware of the Republics age. It seems like a long time for those robots to last, but they were being constantly maintained by those cultists as religious artifacts throughout that time so I don't see any reason why they couldn't. It had to have been a long time ago even in Star Wars terms because there was actually a noticable technological difference between Xims era and film era Star Wars.
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 4/8 1:42am Subject: 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Han Solo and the Lost Legacy!
	In the case of the story, it's important to understand the subtext to Han going along with Baldure. Specifically, Han is going along with his old mentor because he's aware that this is really the last chance of the man to do anything with his life. An important thing to remember is that Baldure has never been quite as awesome as Han Solo is and is on the verge of his life collapsing fully at this point. There's a number of Pulpish feelings like this where old friends or comrades come to more successful friends with a scheme like Ohh.....FIND BURIED TREASURE. The friend recognizes the dire straight of their old companion and then agrees to go on with them. Usually, said old friend ends up dead or betraying the hero so we should feel grateful that Baldure does neither and ends up relatively happily.
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