Jedi Council Forums - Luke, Han, Zayne, and Cade: A Study in Compelling Protagonists

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Author	Topic: Luke, Han, Zayne, and Cade: A Study in Compelling Protagonists
Master_Keralys Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 4/14 12:06pm Subject: Luke, Han, Zayne, and Cade: A Study in Compelling Protagonists - Date Edited: 4/14 12:06pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Master_Keralys
	Luke Skywalker is the quintessential hero's story: farmboy with dreams who's stuck in his small world (literally), who is then catapulted into a massive adventure that puts him square in the middle of destiny, shaping the very fate of his universe. He is good, though tempted by evil, and fights the battle against evil in surprising and sometimes unconventional ways - though he is willing to kill, he doesn't enjoy it and does his best to overcome evil with good, darkness with light, hatred with love. He succeeds through the force of his innate goodness and the support of his friends. Han Solo is the quintessential redeemed hero's story: a heart of gold buried under a calloused exterior. His temperament runs to taking risks and playing things close to the vest - but his heart is to take care of those who have earned his loyalty, and over time he softens from the stony pirate to the noble man that was buried inside under the toils and troubles of many painful years. He overcomes evil with a blaster shot to the head, rarely stopping to ask a lot of questions about the causes of evil, and while he loves, his strongest force for good is not that he loves but that he is loyal and brave - however brash, and however simply he addresses problems. It strikes me that Zayne and Cade are, in some sense, examinations on these two archetypes, but taken to extremes in some of their traits. Zayne is like Luke - overwhelmingly good, facing down evil that he by rights shouldn't be capable of defeating, but coming out ahead because of his innate goodness and his deep compassion and his ability to reach into people's hearts. On the flipside, Cade is all Han's stony brashness and badboy bundled into a package of teenage angst built on a similar foundation of suffering and trouble. He's Han with the Force and a drug habit, in short, and ticked that the galaxy won't leave him alone. And both are unarguably very compelling protagonists: they carry DH's SW flagship series at this point, Knights of the Old Republic and Legacy, with terribly loyal fanbases. My theory? It's because of exactly what I said above: they're Luke and Han put in different circumstances and with different abilities. Their character template - personality, temperament, traits - are nearly identical. Take away Cade's Force powers and their relationship to his past and give him another ten years, drop him in a cantina, and let him meet a Jedi willing to pay... what happens, do you think? But his history and the weight of his great-grandfather's legacy takes him down a different path. Zayne is Luke without his immense talent, but with years of training by the time he's Luke's age in A New Hope. Double his Force potential and put him on a lonely world with his father a servant of evil and a Jedi watching over him, and what do you think happens? So what is it that makes for compelling protagonists? We have the defiant rebel, and the plucky hero, and it seems their circumstances don't matter so much as who they are: we love them (and we love to hate the rebel till he becomes a hero in his own right) for who they are. Are there other similar archetypes in SW, and what are they? And is there a point where these tropes/archetypes break down, and we can't sustain our interest anymore? Does Zayne need to take a trip on the dark side to stay interesting? Is there too a point where we'll all begin to get fatigued with Cade's bad boy trend? -----signature----- God made man. Man rejected God. God became the man Jesus Christ, died and rose again to life, saving man from himself. The craziest story ever told. The truest.
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Grey1 Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 4/14 1:19pm Subject: Luke, Han, Zayne, and Cade: A Study in Compelling Protagonists
	I'll agree with the comparisons. Luke and Zayne is easy, because both are essentially boyscouts. I always got the feeling that Han was somewhat more popular than Luke, partly because of these exact boyscout qualities in comparison to the scoundrel. Doing good isn't as popular as doing good and/or what is necessary to get the plot moving while being cynical, or ironic, or cool. It's why Johnny Depp became favourite pirate over Orlando Bloom, it's why Bender and Bart Simpson and many many cynical/"bad boy" comic characters are popular, it's even why Artoo is more popular than Threepio. It's also something that people missed in the prequels, because Jedi Knights normally wouldn't act like scoundrels, and Anakin was too much of his son to really go all James Dean. Cade is essentially an extrapolation of Quinlan Vos in the Skywalker role, and Vos was essentially Han Solo... with a lightsaber! Or a Jedi with a gun, which was also really, really cool. Having a dark-as-in-moody, conflicted Jedi really sums up what people liked about Star Wars: Han Solo and the lightsaber fights. Do you ever hear anything about Han's haircut, or his whininess? Or, for that matter, about his cynicism, his show-off-personality or his vest? No. People love Han. That's not to say that Luke isn't loved (which would then translate in KOTOR misfortune, but both evidently aren't true); he's just not that cool. Cade got that much coolness from the start that it was hard to take him serious; cool ship, Jedi and bounty hunter (and maybe even smuggler) with a cool ship, something that looks suspiciously like a Mandalorian breastplate, and Vader's pants. The first Skywalker with canon beard growth. The trouble would be that the SW template does its best to combine both characters, and to give the top spot to the boyscout, because only the boyscout can sway the scoundrel. But Legacy doesn't have a boyscout. KOTOR has Gryph as the scoundrel who's not made out to openly measure up to Han, and he's already shown his heart of gold while still fulfilling the serial scoundrel role (like Han had already proven himself at the death Star but was still pictured as a wild card later on). For me, an interesting tangent would be how the Skywalker family/legacy got pushed thanks to the prequels; at the time of the NJO, things were still going like in the Bantam era when all future Jedi heroes were to be named Solo and either were excellent pilots, bad joke tellers, or trademark Solo grinners. It's funny how Han's family essentially phased out of the galaxy, because in the likely case that the Fel dynasty is his future family, there's nothing in it that relates to his character. Just more hard bad boys with lightsabers. But as I said, tangent. Still, I'm not sure if you can say that you need such people to have compelling protagonists, as someone really liking military fiction might prefer Rogue Squadron (ok, granted, Corran is Luke Solo all over again) or Republic Commando or something like that. another thing that KOTOR and Legacy have in common is that both series have their own playground with really main characters. Maybe that's another reason why they can be compelling; they can really create something we haven't seen before while sticking to the formula. -----signature----- Jacen had learned that one can meet the Universe [...] with fear, or with hatred, or with despair. Or one can choose to meet it with love. Jacen had chosen. But still, he was astonished to discover that the Universe could love him back.
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QueenMother_LK Registered: Feb '09	Date Posted: 4/14 1:31pm Subject: Luke, Han, Zayne, and Cade: A Study in Compelling Protagonists
	I think that saying Han and Cade are similar personalities is accurate, but only to an extent. With Han I always got the feeling that he didn't mind saving the day, and that he would always do the 'right'-ish thing. When I read Cade in Legacy, sometimes I really don't know if he is going to do the "right" thing, and I think he is more than just a rebel against his family name with no reason other than he doesn't want to be a skywalker. I think Cade sometimes may not actually be "good". His character is compelling, at least IMHO, because whenever you read about him doing something 'wrong', you just want to cheer him on to try to come back from it. I think you made sort of the same point in your initial post, but I think that the parallel between Cade and Han is only on the surface. Deep down they are completely different people. -----signature----- Sith Apprentice to s65horsey I <3 Vivec
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Corusca_One Registered: Oct '05	Date Posted: 4/14 1:56pm Subject: Luke, Han, Zayne, and Cade: A Study in Compelling Protagonists
	Personally I find Zayne a much more interesting character than Luke Skywalker in the OT. Its a good comparison, but I can't help but think there is a bigger difference than immediately apparent. -----signature----- What would Gryph do? Zayne Carrick is Zayne Carrick! "I don't want to hear any Pessimistic Panakas and their prophecies of continuity gloom and doom..." -Barriss_Coffee Bouncy, bouncy oh such a good time!
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 4/14 2:22pm Subject: Luke, Han, Zayne, and Cade: A Study in Compelling Protagonists - Date Edited: 4/14 2:24pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Charlemagne19
	I don't think that the comparison between Han Solo and Cade Skywalker can be taken too far to be honest. Han Solo is a dashing figure while Cade Skywalker is broken. Quinlan Vos makes a poor comparison as well because Quinlan is a renegade Jedi Knight but he's never shattered emotionally. Both individuals are their own men while Cade Skywalker is more akin to Anakin Skywalker during the worst periods of his life around Attack of the Clones or Revenge of the Sith. He doesn't have self-confidence, the ability to control his impulses, or courage. Instead, Cade Skywalker is terrified of losing his freedom to the point that he ignores the mass suffering of the people around him so that he can avoid being a hero. Oddly, you might say Cade Skywalker is more akin to Uncle Owen in that his ultimate ambition is to stay at home and not become involved. Kyle Katarn is Han Solo with a lightsaber and Quinlan Vos as well as Cade Skywalker doesn't even remotely compare to Kyle in terms of attitude or personality. In short, Cade is Han Solo minus everything that made Han Solo cool. Which is EVERYTHING. Personally, I also note that Han Solo's popularity as compared to Luke Skywalker is possibly with more causal fans of Star Wars than Expanded Universe readers. Han Solo was very popular with individuals who watched the movies but is he more popular than the hardcore book readers? Luke Skywalker IS the foundation of the Jedi Knighthood along with Obi-Wan and Yoda, so I think he just might be more important with book readers. I think the real note is also that Luke Skywalker isn't just the compelling boyscout either. He's also got many of the qualities that people ascribed to Cade and Anakin. Luke is arrogant, a show-off, a person who thinks before he acts, and also an individual who has difficulty with his anger and self-control. These qualities were never to the extreme that they dominated Anakin and he was allowed to become a full-fledged Jedi Knight but he's not a cardboard cut-out. He's one of the most well developed characters in the original trilogy (being as he's the star, this is appropriate). I find Zayne Carrick is a better Luke Skywalker than much of the EU Luke.
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Manisphere Registered: Aug '07	Date Posted: 4/14 3:40pm Subject: Luke, Han, Zayne, and Cade: A Study in Compelling Protagonists
	Charlemagne19 posted: In short, Cade is Han Solo minus everything that made Han Solo cool. Which is EVERYTHING. Han and Cade are only similar in that they both hate authority and...yeah that's about it. I'm thinking about ANH Han here. What made Han all the more lovable and cool was his immense sense of humor. It was his sense of humor and joie de vivre that made him. He had fun. It seems that Cade only smiles when someone is about to get hurt. I see similarities between Quin and Cade of course but Quinlan Vos had a cause. He was relentless about it. Cade believes in nothing. How tormenting is that?? -----signature----- "Head of State, a Sith is just a Jedi who's gone off his meds."-Natasi Daala
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MercenaryAce Registered: Aug '05	Date Posted: 4/14 5:50pm Subject: Luke, Han, Zayne, and Cade: A Study in Compelling Protagonists
	I don't think it is so easy as to sum up Zayne and Luke as boyscouts. I don't like boyscout characters, at least not on principle. Most end up coming across as self-righteous bullies, annoyingly pacifistic (yeah, the ends don't justify the means, but I don't think the means justify the ends either) or just plain boring. Zayne, however, I find compelling, and it has a large part to do with his innate goodness, but not just because of his goodness. His messianic solutions to problems seem less forced, somehow his kindness seems more real... Unfortunately, I have no idea to phrase what I am talking about...so I will fallback on an old saying of mine: No genre, character archetype or level of scientific or moral realism is inherently more interesting and compelling than another. It is all about the presentation. -----signature----- "I am no man...I am a space station!" Another star wars ships, droids and troops site: http://armiesofstarwars.com/ It does have info found nowhere Move all sig, for great justice
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celera Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 4/14 6:35pm Subject: Luke, Han, Zayne, and Cade: A Study in Compelling Protagonists - Date Edited: 4/14 6:59pm (1 edits total) Edited By: celera
	Charles, I totally agree that Luke isn't a boyscout. I see him as the kind of person who projects the straightlaced, goody-two-shoes image. In some ways, it's true since he's very much the boy next door and one of the most unselfish people you'll ever meet. But like you said, he's cocky and had problems with anger and self-control. However, I find that he's overly modest in some situations and too arrogant in others. I don't know why but I see him as the sort of person with the potential to be a schoolboy gone wild. Maybe it's his drive for adventure. A craving to be whisked away from a boring sheltered world.
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Robimus Registered: Jul '07	Date Posted: 4/14 7:21pm Subject: Luke, Han, Zayne, and Cade: A Study in Compelling Protagonists
	Comparing Cade to Han just doesn't work at all for me. Han has always reluctantly done the right thing, he's always had his moral compass in the right place. Han talks big but in the end he always does whats right. Cade, well Cade does what Cade wants, whenever Cade wants to with no concern for anyone else. The two are really not similar at all. -----signature----- I am forever seeking the damutek of Hooley Krekk Oh, woe! Oh, misery! Oh, unhappiness. Hooley Krekk where are you? . http://www.cccomiccon.com http://www.actionfigurenews.ca
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Darth-Ghost Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 4/14 7:25pm Subject: Luke, Han, Zayne, and Cade: A Study in Compelling Protagonists
	Cade could be a reflection of Han pre-ANH, before he decided to go back to help Luke destroy the Death Star. Han Solo was a drug smuggler working for the Hutts, after all.
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 4/14 7:29pm Subject: Luke, Han, Zayne, and Cade: A Study in Compelling Protagonists
	Darth-Ghost posted: Cade could be a reflection of Han pre-ANH, before he decided to go back to help Luke destroy the Death Star. Han Solo was a drug smuggler working for the Hutts, after all. True, on the other hand, Han still was a nice guy if the Han Solo Trilogy and Han Solo Corporate Sector books are any indication.
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Robimus Registered: Jul '07	Date Posted: 4/14 7:39pm Subject: Luke, Han, Zayne, and Cade: A Study in Compelling Protagonists
	Yeah, but look at the Daley stories. They show a Han still helping people in need all the time. He acts like its not his problem but can never leave them to their fate. Han has a heart of gold when it comes to people in need. Thats why Chewie loves him so. I'd really don't think Han would ever do something like turning Hosk over to the Sith, knowing that Hosk would be killed or worse. Han is very hard on people trying to do him, or his friends harm. He's ruthless in that way. But Cade is ruthless in an evil way. For every act of good Cade has done he has an equal act of evil on his resume. Cade was a bounty hunter, turning people over to Rav no matter their fate. Hosk shows that Cade had no problem with turning in someone completly innocent. -----signature----- I am forever seeking the damutek of Hooley Krekk Oh, woe! Oh, misery! Oh, unhappiness. Hooley Krekk where are you? . http://www.cccomiccon.com http://www.actionfigurenews.ca
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ChildOfWinds Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 4/14 7:42pm Subject: Luke, Han, Zayne, and Cade: A Study in Compelling Protagonists
	I think that Zayne is in the mold of Luke, yes. However, I really disagree about Cade and Han. I don't think they are at all alike. Han has a good heart and always ends up doing what is right. He may seem tough and cynical on the outside, but he's soft and good on the inside. He has proven himself to be a true hero many times over. Cade is hard on the outside AND the inside. As Robimus said, Cade only does what Cade wants to do. He doesn't seem to care how that impacts other people. Even when he went to save Hosk, it wasn't so much for Hosk's sake as for his own. Cade is selfish and he really hasn't shown himself to be a good person or a hero. In fact, I can't think of any really positive or noble qualities in Cade. From the Legacy issues that I have read and from the spoilers I've read of the other issues, Cade doesn't really seem to have made any progress since Legacy began. Cade is one of the major reasons that I stopped reading Legacy.
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Nobody145 Registered: Feb '07	Date Posted: 4/14 7:56pm Subject: Luke, Han, Zayne, and Cade: A Study in Compelling Protagonists
	Hm, Zayne and Luke aren't really alike, in terms of personality, but... both are idealistic, purehearted characters, I guess you could call them that. Though these days I'm liking Zayne more than Luke, after all the recent novels, though Zayne himself isn't perfect, but in some ways, Zayne has a bigger sense of grand destiny about him than even Luke has had recently... well, maybe the OT Luke was like this. What I mean is that while Zayne doesn't have good luck, and is still a bit clumsy, he's also at times extraordinarily lucky, running into old friends, having escape ships crash near him, etc. Anyway, hm, in terms of archetypes... well, both Zayne and Cade live in somewhat dark periods, though Cade's era is probably one of the darkest Star Wars era short of the actual Dark Times post-RotS. As for a Cade and Han comparison... at first glance, they seem to share similar... classes, in that they both start out as fringe characters. While naturally we have more material on Han, we also know that Han seems to have stuck to his ethics more than Cade has. Although Cade has probably suffered more, with the scattering of the Jedi, but while he has suffered, that doesn't give him an excuse to do whatever he wants. With Han, in various works, even before the Rebellion or early on during his time with them, there are some lines that he won't ever cross, like slavery for instance, and in just the movies, we see that when the chips were down, Han came through and helped Luke, and that was just in the first movie! By the second, Han rides out into the Hoth wilderness despite the fact that it was getting even colder to find Luke and he does find him and keeps him alive long enough for rescue. Although the time between ANH and ESB is several years, but I don't really see Cade doing anything like that. Well, maybe Cade would for an important friend (Azlyn for instance), but for him, it would be more in terms of he couldn't stand to lose anyone else, placing himself first, his needs, his wants. Over the last couple dozen issues we've seen glimpses of decency from Cade, but we also see that he's very, very stubborn about doing what he wants and that he also doesn't think through the consequences of his action. There hasn't really been all that much progression in his character. Heck, in some ways, he's gotten even worse. Although Han and Cade are from different media mediums. Han had a few movies and a few years in between (IU) to develop, though even in just ANH we saw that heart of gold, whereas Cade's mainly had about 30 issues, which really isn't that long in comic time, especially given how many big arcs were involved. Although of course the biggest difference is that Cade's broken, whereas Han never quite was, and certainly wasn't when we first met him in the movies. Maybe when Chewie died, but he recovered. Although perhaps that's another difference- Han has something to aim for, or rather, someone he loved, namely Leia, and probably on some level, he was trying to be a better person for her, given the huge class differences between them. Cade, on the other hand, prizes his freedom the most, and while he does care about his friends, its again hard to tell whether its because he can't lose them, or he's really concerned about their safety. Probably a combination of both, but with Cade the former reason is probably the primary motivation. Deliah loves him, but she can't really do anything, and as another fringer, its not like Cade needs to really improve himself for her. Heck, in the most recent Legacy issue, Deliah called him out on how Azlyn almost makes Cade want to be a better person, which he hasn't wanted to be for a long time, not since before Ossus. Although every now and then Shado makes some comment that makes it sound like he thinks Cade was always screwed up like this and that the Ossus massacre just made it worse. In some of the other Legacy thread, I have seen some posts that show people are getting fed up with Cade. Heck, by this point, I could care less about what's Cade's doing, since he's slowly getting worse as time goes by with no sign of improvement (and the only one with a chance of actually making him want to be a better person currently closer to death than life...). I'll keep reading, of course, but still, Cade's endless walk the gray line has been boring for me since Claws of the Dragon ended. Or rather, since the Loyalties arc when it didn't look like there was any progress (well, positive progress anyway). Sure, Cade has a big destiny that he doesn't want, but Han didn't have a big destiny like Luke or Leia did, but Han still went on to become one of the pivotal heroes of the Galactic Civil War, so that probably says something about Cade's character. As for Luke and Zayne... well, while Zayne might seem sorta like farmboy Luke, their characters progress in different ways. Luke eventually goes on to become the self-assured Jedi Grandmaster, though not because he wants to, but because of necessity. Zayne is perfectly content with his current role in life, just wandering the galaxy, doing good deeds, helping those who need help, etc. Although there are hints about what he was doing during that month off, but otherwise, Zayne seems fine and he has absolutely stuck to his morals throughout all his trials. Although he's also never had to kill anyone, but that's part of his luck. Zayne doesn't need to kill anyone- anyone who comes gunning for Zayne will likely be smashed by a meteorite or something without Zayne needing to do anything- although Zayne would still try to protect them from being crushed anyway. I don't think he needs a darkside trip or anything, Zayne's near pefect as is, not to mention the rest of the cast too. -----signature----- Don't mind me, I'm nobody important.
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 4/14 8:02pm Subject: Luke, Han, Zayne, and Cade: A Study in Compelling Protagonists
	Nobody 145 posted: Hm, Zayne and Luke aren't really alike, in terms of personality, but... both are idealistic, purehearted characters, I guess you could call them that. Though these days I'm liking Zayne more than Luke, after all the recent novels, though Zayne himself isn't perfect, but in some ways, Zayne has a bigger sense of grand destiny about him than even Luke has had recently... well, maybe the OT Luke was like this. What I mean is that while Zayne doesn't have good luck, and is still a bit clumsy, he's also at times extraordinarily lucky, running into old friends, having escape ships crash near him, etc. Both Zayne Carrick and Luke Skywalker are a couple of "average joe" do-gooders that are worried about the little people and mostly forced into learning the Jedi Way on their own. The main difference between them is the fact that Zayne Carrick is even less capable at using the Force than Luke Skywalker was Pre-Yoda despite almost no training at all. Nobody145 posted: Anyway, hm, in terms of archetypes... well, both Zayne and Cade live in somewhat dark periods, though Cade's era is probably one of the darkest Star Wars era short of the actual Dark Times post-RotS. To be honest, Zayne Carrick lives in a far better time than most. The Republic still exists, the Jedi Knighthood still exists, and the galaxy isn't under the Rule of a Sith Lord. It's a far cry from the Dark Times or Legacy.
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Darth-Ghost Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 4/14 8:10pm Subject: Luke, Han, Zayne, and Cade: A Study in Compelling Protagonists - Date Edited: 4/14 8:19pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Darth-Ghost
	Do you guys think then that the major cause for the differecnes between Cade and Han is the Force/backstory/bloodline/legacy? If Han Solo was born strong with the Force, because he was born into a powerful and famous bloodline (whose power is felt across the galaxy, and has profoundly influenced the last century and a half of galactic politics and history), then watched as everything his family had fought for for the past 150 years was destroyed, watched how his father's act of compasion and attempt to fix the galaxy ended up making everyting much worse for everyone, watched as his father was killed and his order failed before his eyes, was naturally talented with a very intense and powerful form of Force-healing, and was picked up and raised by pirates and bounty hunters for the influential 7 years he was an impressable teenager... if Han Solo had gone though all of that, basically being pressured and crushed by the failed family legacy he was born into while it also gave him immense power to get his way with almost everything, then I think Han Solo would have turned out a lot different. His father, Kol, was the perfect Skywalker. He failed. In fact, his pro-active and selfless compassion made the galaxy much worse. Everything the Skywalker-Solo family worked for was destroyed. And the ghost of his dead, distant ancestor is haunting him to embrace the legacy that has not only ruined all his family members lives but has also failed. From Cade's point of view, it makes perfect sense. He's basically a "libertarian" or an "anarchist." That the best thing you can do for people is to let them be themselves and learn how to take care of themselves. The only time he uses his power is to help the people around him, such as Wolf Sazen his Jedi master, Princess Marasiah for saving his life, to rescue the Jedi he is responsible for turning over to the Sith, his friends who were implanted by coral seeds because of him, and for trying to save the life of his girlfriend Azlyn. With Azlyn, he may finally be taking his own power and attachment too far, but it is a new experience for him to not be able to save someone he loves. The last time he failed to save someone was his father Kol.
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