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Author Topic: The perfect Jedi... the ideal Knight of the Force.. and then there is Anakin S.
CeiranHarmony  4474 posts
Registered: May '04
17274_Dark Apprentice
Date Posted: 4/23 12:40pm Subject: The perfect Jedi... the ideal Knight of the Force.. and then there is Anakin S.

We all know those who talk about this mention Qui Gon Jinn, Obi Wan Kenobi and few others. All Jedi once made errors and learned through them, rose and advanced. Yet still most Jedi of the PT + EU are shown as NOT ideal Jedi but Force Using Light Warriors. Same for lots of the NJO Jedi and Legacy.

Yet I think I have found a very interesting truth. Whenever the Jedi are uncontested, be it in a Golden Age with Sith in hiding or be it with them strong in numbers etc. they get caught up in law, organisational stuff, etc. and either turn dogmatic or somehow evolve into slightly wrong Jedi, arrogant, etc. like the Prequels showed them before their destined fall.

Yet the heroic wise warrior monks that love peace, harmony and love first of all, are not shown best in these eras. These we see as a minority, and most of them shine brightest in the darkest areas of the galaxy or in the darkest eras of all.. namely the DARK TIMES. The best Jedi we've seen and loved most are those, who...

... lived in the Dark Times and shadowy regions of the galaxy where there is much wrong and much need for them, much work to do (Qui Gon & Obi Wan)
... are either defying the Jedi Council or not bound by it since it no longer existed (Qui Gon & Obi Wan)
... are Jedi that go where the Force wants them to be instead of where a Council sends them, etc.
... do not rush into battle and do not sit out pacifistic the dark times
... stand firm when corruption and darkness claims most around them
... learn from their errors instead of falling prey to them
etc.

I just read the latest issue of Dark Times (back in print with new great art, Yay!) and Dass Jennir has learned a lot since we last saw him. I like his new self. While not yet claiming he is one of the ideal Jedi, the issue inspired me somehow to write all this without even specifically being about that topic.


In the light of the perfect Jedi, lets analyse Anakin Skywalker

He was arrogant later on and rushing into battle etc. BUT he was following the Force and often defied the Jedi Council because of his feelings/Force intution.
He had dark streaks but did not succumb to them before ROTS despite many possibilities. And even the Council and Obi Wan had to admit his plans worked even when going wrong at first. He was a natural. And with Ahsoka as Padawan he really changed and rose to an even better status I think. The TV series is showing him more as a hero instead of the wannabe Darth the comics hinted at despite heroics.

While I'd not say he is better than Qui Gon or Obi Wan, I have to say Anakin really IS a Jedi better than many others, and I do not in mean power or skill (which fits, too). What is still missing for many fans and myself is the BIG EVENT where we see Anakin as THE Hero, which will make his fall in ROTS even more sad than it already was. I think CW TV will deliver this and it will have to do with Ahsokas fate.

Well, my fav theory is, that Ahsoka at some point falls to the Dark Side (because of a love or however?) and Anakin has to bring her in per Council order. Ahsoka really turns darkest dark (and is used by Sidious and Dooku to lure Anakin towards darkness, which she does not know) and when Anakin fails to bring her in several times, the Jedi Council orders her assassination. DEAD OR ALIVE. Anakin is mad at this but succeeds in capturing her, yet he does not kill her when they battle and maybe Obi Wan style deactivates his blade and awaits the killing blow and she stops... he redeems her to the light again. and then the series ends or continues with Ahsoka getting re-training and Knighthood later, leaving some untold Purge tales about her and Anakin meeting again as Vader.

Not only would this show the greatness of Anakin but also it would be a nice mirroring twist to ROTS, where Anakin falls and maybe for reasons Ahsoka did fall, reasons he knows pretty well and understands and he chooses it fully knowing the outcome, nevertheless, sad himself. Later then he meets Ahsoka in the Jedi Purge before the Jedi Council chamber where she as Knight guards the Younglings and he has to slay her first to get to them... hard for him but another Sith test. and after that.. killing children seems so much easier,. no it does not of course... and he proceeds.


Ironic though would be then that Anakin Skywalkers trained Padawan fell to the Dark Side, yet Darth Vaders secret Apprentice fell to the Light Side tongue











 

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Charlemagne19  26812 posts
Registered: Jul '00
6408_Jedi Outcast
Date Posted: 4/23 12:51pm Subject: The perfect Jedi... the ideal Knight of the Force.. and then there is Anakin S.
Obi Wan Kenobi is the perfect Knight of the Old Jedi Order, not Qui Gon Jinn. Qui Gon Jinn is a maverick who is also incorrect in many of his choices. Had he set Anakin up to be Obi Wan Kenobi's badass pilot sidekick then the galaxy might have been a very different place indeed. Obi Wan Kenobi, however, embodies all of the virtues that the Prequel Jedi Knights were supposed to have.

1. Obi Wan Kenobi was friends to everyone in the galaxy but aware that such things were transitary.

2. Obi Wan spared the life of the woman that he loved's killer.

3. Obi Wan falling in love, unlike with Qui Gon, was acknowledged as something he couldn't act on.

4. Obi Wan never gave into the Dark Side even for a short time no matter the fact he was tortured and treated like an animal by Ventress.

5. Obi Wan always fought the Clone Wars with the eye of a negotiator and a man who treated others with great respect.

 
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DarthApocalypse  639 posts
Registered: Apr '07
44297_501st Stormtrooper
Date Posted: 4/23 1:19pm Subject: The perfect Jedi... the ideal Knight of the Force.. and then there is Anakin S.

Charlemagne19 posted:
Qui Gon Jinn is a maverick who is also incorrect in many of his choices.


Qui-Gon was a maverick in a Jedi Order that was flawed, so I don't think that should count against him too much. Also I don't see Qui-Gon being anymore incorrect in his choices than Obi-Wan.

Charlemagne19 posted:

4. Obi Wan never gave into the Dark Side even for a short time no matter the fact he was tortured and treated like an animal by Ventress.


He never gave in against Ventress but did when Maul killed Qui-Gon.

 

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Charlemagne19  26812 posts
Registered: Jul '00
6408_Jedi Outcast
Date Posted: 4/23 1:20pm Subject: The perfect Jedi... the ideal Knight of the Force.. and then there is Anakin S.
DarthApocalypse posted:
He never gave in against Ventress but did when Maul killed Qui-Gon.


A few seconds as a padawan is not something I'd honestly count.

 
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DarthApocalypse  639 posts
Registered: Apr '07
44297_501st Stormtrooper
Date Posted: 4/23 1:47pm Subject: The perfect Jedi... the ideal Knight of the Force.. and then there is Anakin S.

Charlemagne19 posted:
A few seconds as a padawan is not something I'd honestly count.


Fair enough, though a few seconds of losing control is all it takes. It only took a few seconds for Anakin to decide that Dooku should be executed.

 

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Charlemagne19  26812 posts
Registered: Jul '00
6408_Jedi Outcast
Date Posted: 4/23 1:58pm Subject: The perfect Jedi... the ideal Knight of the Force.. and then there is Anakin S.
DarthApocalypse posted:
Fair enough, though a few seconds of losing control is all it takes. It only took a few seconds for Anakin to decide that Dooku should be executed.


To be sure, that was a conscious choice on Anakin's part. I think that's different than attacking in the heat of anger an opponent who has just murdered your mentor and then giving up that anger to defeat him in a more Jedi fashion.

To go back to the original poster, I do think that Anakin Skywalker might have been able to reform the Jedi Knighthood if not for the fact that his immense flaws came at the time he'd actually started to learn the lesson that he really needed to start understanding the Jedi Order. Wild Space attributes Anakin's taking of a padawan with his sudden maturity to becoming a true Jedi Knight. Realizing, that Obi Wan wasn't scolding him out of jealousy or to be hard on him but to actually try and help him become a better person who could survive in the Hellish world of warfare.

Still, as big an Anakin booster as I am, you have to note that a lot of his choices reak of hypocrisy. Quinlan Vos is willing to leave the Jedi Knighthood in order to be with his Kiffar law marriage wife, Kahleen. Anakin leads Padme on with the idea that he'll consider leaving the Jedi Order after the war is over but his reaction to not being made a Jedi Master is to go ballistic. These are not the actions of a man who is at peace with his role in the universe or his desires.

Unfortunately, Anakin Skywalker's time with A'Sharad Hett also were a serious issue. He knew he'd done a horrible war crime when he'd massacred the Tusken Raiders in Attack of the Clones but his meeting with the Jedi Knight ended up resulting in him becoming steadfast in his belief that it *WAS* the right decision in order to live with himself. Arguably, I tend to think this was the moment that Anakin Skywalker became a Dark Jedi and only became a Sith later.

Personally, I'll be disappointed if Anakin Skywalker loses Ahsoka in the war or she goes to the Dark Side (highly unlikely). I think Lucasfilm won't do that. It's possible she might be lost in some fashion, though in order to survive the war. I think PTSD would go a long way to explaining Anakin's erratic behavior in ROTS.

 
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CeiranHarmony  4474 posts
Registered: May '04
17274_Dark Apprentice
Date Posted: 4/23 2:18pm Subject: The perfect Jedi... the ideal Knight of the Force.. and then there is Anakin S.
please move your discussion elsewhere since this is not what my topic is about. thx

 

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Charlemagne19  26812 posts
Registered: Jul '00
6408_Jedi Outcast
Date Posted: 4/23 2:20pm Subject: The perfect Jedi... the ideal Knight of the Force.. and then there is Anakin S.
CeiranHarmony posted:
please move your discussion elsewhere since this is not what my topic is about. thx


I didn't mean to be rude BUT I thought my last post was *ABOUT* your topic, what is it if it isn't discussing Anakin Skywalker as an example of an ideal Jedi Knight?

 
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CeiranHarmony  4474 posts
Registered: May '04
17274_Dark Apprentice
Date Posted: 4/23 2:28pm Subject: The perfect Jedi... the ideal Knight of the Force.. and then there is Anakin S.
Charlemagne19 posted:
CeiranHarmony posted:
please move your discussion elsewhere since this is not what my topic is about. thx


I didn't mean to be rude BUT I thought my last post was *ABOUT* your topic, what is it if it isn't discussing Anakin Skywalker as an example of an ideal Jedi Knight?


it is about how the darkest eras bring out the best in the Jedi compared to the golden ages that seem to corrupt the Jedi.

Anakin is just an addition I made, since he should be the perfect Jedi and never was one. that's why I added my fanon theory of how he could be made better through EU adding and leading up to ROTS.

well, but that is just one aspect. I wanted the discussion to not be narrowed on certain characters but be more general with characters just as examples. Sorry if I acted too impatient, but your discussion seemed to be too Anakin centric and might lead away from the true topic.

but to get back to your Jedi examples: I think it is better for a true Jedi to resign from the Order in order to be able to live in harmony AND follow where the Force leads him/her rather than staying with the Order if it means accepting limitations that do not seem to be natural. So my NJO example would be Tenel Ka as perfect Jedi, she gives up herself and her daughter in order to do best for her people, and for my taste nearly gives up too much of herself. the perfect Jedi needs to balance not only good and bad but also his personal stuff and the altruistic stuff. Obi Wan was very fine with his life and loved it, that's why he was so good at it. Other Jedi like Anakin who feel they are limited are unhappy and less effective because of that.

Quinlan Vos leaving the Jedi for Khaleen would have been a wise move. A'Sharad Hett also was a character I loved during the Clone Wars, despite his EU corruption later on. He was a great Jedi and protecting the Tusken from Settler violence was good, too. Yet Obi Wan was more right in saying the error A'sharad made was that he chose sides instead of trying to mediate and negotiate.

 

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marmkid  2401 posts
Registered: Apr '01
Date Posted: 4/23 2:28pm Subject: The perfect Jedi... the ideal Knight of the Force.. and then there is Anakin S.
CeiranHarmony posted:

He had dark streaks but did not succumb to them before ROTS despite many possibilities.


slaughtering the tusken village is only a dark streak?

while i agree it wasnt a permanent stain, as he was mainly light after till RotS, it was definitely a big step towards his fall

 
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CeiranHarmony  4474 posts
Registered: May '04
17274_Dark Apprentice
Date Posted: 4/23 2:45pm Subject: The perfect Jedi... the ideal Knight of the Force.. and then there is Anakin S.
marmkid posted:
CeiranHarmony posted:

He had dark streaks but did not succumb to them before ROTS despite many possibilities.


slaughtering the tusken village is only a dark streak?

while i agree it wasnt a permanent stain, as he was mainly light after till RotS, it was definitely a big step towards his fall


sure that was bad and dark... yet life is full with steps AND missteps... the massacre was a big step towards darkness, sure, yet he realized his error and learned from it. That he did not from his errors in ROTS. that's the difference I see. It is ok to fall, to make errors, to go the wrong path if we learn from that experience and redeem outselves. And the scenes with Anakin and A'sharad showed that he had grown after that experience. He confessed, not to the council because he knew the consequences and dogmatic views of it, but to other Jedi Knights (not Obi Wan though). And THAT was a big step towards the Light.

I am not saying doing evil is ok so long we later regret it and learn from it. But practically spoken, it is like that. IF Shmis death was another trap for Anakin laid out by Sidious, he successfully went through it without succumbing to permanent darkness. And he didn´t even need anyone to get him back to normal. He realized all that on his own after his bad acts. Padmé consoled him, she did not bring him back to light. Bad for the Tusken, sure, yet the worst thing aside that was that he did not confess to Obi Wan.

 

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Tyber_Zahn  910 posts
Registered: Sep '08
41993_Tyber Zann
Date Posted: 4/23 3:28pm Subject: The perfect Jedi... the ideal Knight of the Force.. and then there is Anakin S.
If I ever find myself gunning down a village of people I'll just put it down to a misstep, a rough day, it happens.

 
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Arawn_Fenn  10329 posts
Registered: Jul '04
46079_Darth Plagueis
Date Posted: 4/23 3:36pm Subject: The perfect Jedi... the ideal Knight of the Force.. and then there is Anakin S.
Too much coffee. coffee coffee coffee

 

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CeiranHarmony  4474 posts
Registered: May '04
17274_Dark Apprentice
Date Posted: 4/23 3:45pm Subject: The perfect Jedi... the ideal Knight of the Force.. and then there is Anakin S.
Tyber_Zahn posted:
If I ever find myself gunning down a village of people I'll just put it down to a misstep, a rough day, it happens.


this is neither funny nor what I said. sure you know better than that, don't you?

If today someone can not believe in redemption, how ever fast it may come or how long it may take to come, it is a sad day. I hope you are not one of those who'd rather see someone who did some evil be locked away without hope and a future. Redemption is Star Wars central theme. And I can´t stand it to see fans prefer execution or who view redemption and forgiving as wrong cause "evil is evil and there is no way of betterment" bla.. your words sound like that to me, and I hope I did get them wrong. There are criminal youths who became politicians, beloved actors and actresses, even heroes and security people etc. you live with them all day mostly not knowing it. And even you do for sure commit some minor crimes, be it online piracy or whatever, and if you'd be in the place of someone who misstepped on his path, wouldn´t you, too, want a second chance, redemption, forgivness and hope? Or would You prefer to be locked away? Because that's what it sounds like. Unforgiving, unbelieving in redemption.

I am not as Christian as others may be, I am not a Saint and I am not a criminal or a former one, but I really do hate it when people behave like that. So please explain what you do mean exactly, morally and philosophically on the topic. Because you sound like in your opinion Anakin should never be forgiven and he was dark all the way since the Tusken massacre.

 

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Charlemagne19  26812 posts
Registered: Jul '00
6408_Jedi Outcast
Date Posted: 4/23 4:08pm Subject: The perfect Jedi... the ideal Knight of the Force.. and then there is Anakin S.
Tenel Ka wasn't allowed out of the order given Luke Skywalker gave her an unofficial "pass" on leaving it. Ultimately, while she was well intentioned, I think she was misguided in her attempts to remain Hapes' Queen. Bluntly, Hapan culture is something she couldn't change all by herself and its questionable whether she would have done more good as Hapes' Queen rather than being a Jedi Knight.

I'm glad Allana is out of the seccession. It's the best thing for her.

 
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CeiranHarmony  4474 posts
Registered: May '04
17274_Dark Apprentice
Date Posted: 4/23 4:24pm Subject: The perfect Jedi... the ideal Knight of the Force.. and then there is Anakin S.
Charlemagne19 posted:
Tenel Ka wasn't allowed out of the order given Luke Skywalker gave her an unofficial "pass" on leaving it. Ultimately, while she was well intentioned, I think she was misguided in her attempts to remain Hapes' Queen. Bluntly, Hapan culture is something she couldn't change all by herself and its questionable whether she would have done more good as Hapes' Queen rather than being a Jedi Knight.

I'm glad Allana is out of the seccession. It's the best thing for her.


right, but it is not about her doing more good as queen than she could have as Jedi. it is about there being less evil because she is queen than there would be with the Hapans if she'd be a Jedi.

I myself would have prefered for her to stay Dathomiri warrior girl with Hapan heritage but no throne for her.

 

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