Jedi Council Forums - The Official Fate of the Jedi: Omen Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

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Author	Topic: The Official Fate of the Jedi: Omen Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)
Manisphere Registered: Aug '07	Date Posted: 7/4 11:13am Subject: The Official Fate of the Jedi: Omen Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed) - Date Edited: 7/4 11:15am (1 edits total) Edited By: Manisphere
	Interesting. Omen made number 4 on the NYT Bestseller list. Seems we don't know what the hell we're talking about. FOTJ is just plain selling. -----signature----- "Head of State, a Sith is just a Jedi who's gone off his meds."-Natasi Daala
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Darth-Ghost Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 7/4 11:34am Subject: The Official Fate of the Jedi: Omen Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)
	They usually always do, but #4 is very good. It seems like people don't have a problem with the book's story, and everyone says chacterization is good, jus that it needs "more showing, less telling" to sum it all up.
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S1thari Registered: Oct '08	Date Posted: 7/4 11:43am Subject: The Official Fate of the Jedi: Omen Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed) - Date Edited: 7/4 11:47am (2 edits total) Edited By: S1thari
	It seems to be more about anticipation than actual content, but good for Golden. I guess all that talk about people boycotting the FOTJ series doesn't hold up to much scrutiny.
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Jedi Ben Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 7/4 1:05pm Subject: The Official Fate of the Jedi: Omen Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)
	S1thari posted: It seems to be more about anticipation than actual content, but good for Golden. I guess all that talk about people boycotting the FOTJ series doesn't hold up to much scrutiny. 2 points: 1. Despite talk to the contrary, it's rare for fans to not buy something - because fans are fans of X it takes a lot to get them to vote with their wallets. 2. There's no way to tell who is buying - thus some fans may indeed not buy FOTJ, but new readers do. -----signature----- Excellence: "You are the forum's Quick Ben." SW EU fans: John Ostrander needs your help! http://www.comix4sight.com
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Thrawn McEwok Title: TFN EU Staff Registered: May '00	Date Posted: 7/5 3:28am Subject: The Official Fate of the Jedi: Omen Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed) - Date Edited: 7/5 3:29am (2 edits total) Edited By: Thrawn McEwok
	Robimus posted: You seem to think it's Pellaeons death that I'm upset with? That couldn't be farther from the truth. I've always supported the way his death was written on these very boards. Now, this is interesting. Can you be more explicit about exactly how you "support" it (that's quite a vague word)? How does this combine with the "hate" you say it made you feel? You enjoy being made to hate fictional characters? Robimus posted: No, this is something different. I guess we're to cease to enjoy the universe from within and must look at every thing OOU now? I prefer looking at everything from an IU perspective, at least as much as possible. I'm not sure what this has to do with the discussion. I was considering the plot-point in question in context of other in-universe events. I did that as an OOU reader, but an in-universe character could do exactly the same. Now, to reiterate the question: why are you having this specific reaction to just one of several comparable events? Is this different from your feelings for Boba, Ben, Jaina and Luke, and if so - why? Robimus posted: Ben, Jaina, Daala, Lecersen, Boba, Mirta and Jaina's actions have nothing to do with Tahiri. Thats the crux of this. Tahiri commited crimes and is being called to task for them, she can't hide behind other characters who have done bad things as well. I disagree: the fact that no-one is innocent means that it's very hard to single out one individual character - not least because it makes the other characters vulnerable to the same attack. I'm not advocating executing, or even imprisoning, Luke, Kyp, Daala, Jaina, Boba and Lecersen - just pointing out that they're all vulnerable under the exact same heading, both technically and morally... I can't think of one character in "Legacy of the Force" who wasn't complicit in assassination and treason. Robimus posted: Am I to be sorry that her actions with Pellaeon and Shevu invoked an emotional reaction from me? That her actions made me hate her character? No, thats the point of the storytelling...........isn't it? No, I don't think it is. My own reaction in Revelation was one of puzzlement, a sense that the character's actions didn't add up. While the writing was good, I couldn't get a handle on Tahiri's behaviour here in terms of her established characterization (Pellaeon's was also a little slippery), and that ultimately made me feel unable to respond emotionally to the main plot-point when it happened: it made little sense to me in terms of both characters' identities, requiring me to assume either that the author didn't know the characters well (and/or was trying to "crowbar" the characters to fit the plot/message), or else that there were subtext motives that were deliberately implied but not shown, like Tahiri having an off-camera agenda and Luke mind-controlling Pellaeon. Regardless, the sense I had from Revelation was that the novel was structured in a way that make the reader step back from the action and ask questions about POV and motive and meaning, not trying to make readers hate previouslty-sympathetic characters. My reaction in Inferno was one of sympathy and amusement at Tahiri's intelligent attempts to manoeuvre the information out of Ben without breaking him, frustration at Ben's priggish mid-teen inflexibility, and horror when the two collided over Shevu - but these were also the events which eventually allowed Tahiri and Ben to make better choices: they were the only characters to do so in the series, IMHO. So, yes, emotional responses are allowed, but I didn't respond in anything like the same way as you. And that's before we even get into the wider context of the pattern of assassination and treason in "Legacy of the Force".... Robimus posted: I don't know why we're not allowed to root for favorite characters or, like or dislike them or even have emotion for them. No instead now we're to dimiss everything as OOU? I don't see where your coming from with this at all. Of course we're allowed to support favourite characters - I'm supporting one right here. That said, I also try and understand my own biases - and I think that hating characters is a slightly different issue. I'm curious to know more about the motives for your negative reaction. As I've said already, I think you're being inconsistent here, when you compare one character with another, but I'm interested in knowing why you responded the way you did... Robimus posted: Actually Thrawn, I agree with your breakdown of every character except Jaina. She had nothing to do with Quille's death and was clearly gunning for Tahiri and Jacen only, in a war zone no less. To me Lecersen, Daala, Boba and Mirta have thus far escaped punishment due to their ranks in the governments they represent. But thats not to say they will forever escape punishment, but for now they have. Daala ended up Head of State, Lecersen basically cut a plea bargain with Luke and the Mandalorians with Daala as leader of the GA will be given slack. Ben, well Ben is keeping everything hush, hush. He's hiding with his father right now. I think a facinating story would be him be called to task for his crimes. And this could still happen once negociations with the Confederacy get done. There seems to be a distinct shift in your mood here: you're describing feeling "hate" for one character as a result of an action, and apparently taking pleasure in both that experience and the idea of punishing that character; but then you're not showing any real emotional reaction to the comparable actions of other characters, and merely finding it potentially "fascinating" that they could be treated in a similar way. What is it that makes Tahiri different for you from Ben Skywalker, or Jaina Solo, or Boba Fett, or Rukh, or Darth Vader, in the list of characters who've assassinated senior officers aboard Star Destroyer flagships? As to Jaina, she was clearly and knowingly going along with an assassination mission, whether out of a macho posturing she should have grown out of in Dark Tide: Ruin, or because it served her agenda (rather, Luke Skywalker's agenda, mind-controlling her) of carrying out her own assassination mission against Jacen. And that's quite apart from the fact that the ostensible good-guys are wearing phlenbotium character shields (unless, of course, Luke was battle-meditating them... but I hardly think that the idea that Farmboy is manipulating everyone's minds and actions justifies the apparent bias of the narrative - it undermines it! ). Robimus posted: I think this whole thing boils down more to one reader who enjoyed LOTF to an extent and another that didn't. I actually enjoyed the majority of the "Legacy of the Force" novels, and Invincible in particular. I just had a completely different analytic and emotional response from you. I did find the characterization and continuity in Traviss's novels a little slippery, but I think that's relevant in analysing the effect of the series, and I think it could be deliberate, too. Whatever the cause, it provokes me as a reader to be tolerant to the characters in her novels, and if it does mean that her novels are less emotionally resonant for me, it's offset in technical terms by my respect for other aspects of her ability. And from Tahiri Veila, the discussion has moved on to Anakin Solo. I, for one, find this appropriate. I'll reply to that part of the discussion later, but I'll leave for now with the hope of getting the two of them on the same page again, and getting the awesome back: A/T FTW! !! EDIT: kudos to Christie for the #4 spot! - The Imperial Ewok -----signature----- A/T = OTP :===8[#]8===: Kyp/Jaina fans: stand up and be counted!
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Havac Title: Lit Mod of War Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 7/5 11:23am Subject: The Official Fate of the Jedi: Omen Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)
	Thrawn McEwok posted: I can't think of one character in "Legacy of the Force" who wasn't complicit in assassination and treason. Gavin Darklighter? -----signature----- "Is there a captain's hat involved in this?" "I . . . don't know what department I want. I need . . . pants."
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darthcaedus1138 Registered: Oct '07	Date Posted: 7/5 11:56am Subject: The Official Fate of the Jedi: Omen Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)
	That Neimoidian dude who Luke and Mara semi interrogated. -----signature----- Don't panic. Until the future becomes the present, it is merely distraction. Beautiful Blueberries. Star Wars EU Podcast, Jedi Beacon, Proud Co-host. http://www.vimeo.com/jedibeacon 2nd Most Attractive Guy in the EUC
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Robimus Registered: Jul '07	Date Posted: 7/5 11:57am Subject: The Official Fate of the Jedi: Omen Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed) - Date Edited: 7/5 12:00pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Robimus
	Thrawn Posted: Now, this is interesting. Can you be more explicit about exactly how you "support" it (that's quite a vague word)? How does this combine with the "hate" you say it made you feel? I've already been clear. I liked the writing of it, how it fit into the story, the idea of continuing Tahiri's path as a Sith apprentice, the idea of flipping the Empire back to an "evil" form to have Jag shudder come in and save the Imperial way, so on. That said Tahiri chose to be a Sith, to study under Darth Caedus, to murder Pellaeon, to murder Lon Shevu. She ceased being sympathetic at that point for me and I grew to hate her through Invincible. Thrawn posted: You enjoy being made to hate fictional characters? :-? Sigh, if you don't get my response then you don't get it. I'm not that detached as a reader, I'm not worried about examining the technical aspects of the writing or blaming authors for character death. I just go with the story, if I feel an emotional response all the better. The suspension of disbelief and involving the readers in their story should be the author(s) goal an for me in this case they succeeded. Thrawn posted: I'm not sure what this has to do with the discussion. I was considering the plot-point in question in context of other in-universe events. I did that as an OOU reader, but an in-universe character could do exactly the same. No, you were pretty clear.......Thrawn posted:and it was an authorial/editorial decision. Why are you blaming a fictional character for it? I blame the fictional character because she was responsible for it, thats the story. I don't blame authors for character deaths. Thrawn posted: Now, to reiterate the question: why are you having this specific reaction to just one of several comparable events? Is this different from your feelings for Boba, Ben, Jaina and Luke, and if so - why? I already explained in my previous post why things are the way they are. Boba is on Daala's payroll, Lecersen cut a plea deal of sorts, Jaina never set out on any assassination mission and only acted after the Moff coup on the Bloodfin. Ben is a complex issue and one that has not been written to my satisfaction. To answer your question, like I already did, he should be called to task for his crimes and maybe yet will be. That goes for all that I mentioned above, the story is not yet over and eventually they might all answer for their crimes. I don't see how you now lump Luke into this equation. Do you buy Daala's deriliction of duty charges? Thrawn McEwok posted: I can't think of one character in "Legacy of the Force" who wasn't complicit in assassination and treason. Allana I always look toward morals over these legal issues the like of treason. Luke is guilty of treason against the Empire, that doesn't make anything he did wrong. Thrawn posted: Regardless, the sense I had from [i]Revelation was that the novel was structured in a way that make the reader step back from the action and ask questions about POV and motive and meaning, not trying to make readers hate previouslty-sympathetic characters.[/i] Not my take, but thats fine. We needn't agree. Thrawn posted: My reaction in [i]Inferno was one of sympathy and amusement at Tahiri's intelligent attempts to manoeuvre the information out of Ben without breaking him, frustration at Ben's priggish mid-teen inflexibility, and horror when the two collided over Shevu - but these were also the events which eventually allowed Tahiri and Ben to make better choices: they were the only characters to do so in the series, IMHO.[/i] Tahiri's choices and probably Ben's were to late for me. But then I never believed in Darth Vader's redemption either. Thrawn posted: Of course we're allowed to support favourite characters - I'm supporting one right here. Thats what I thought you were doing before you blamed the author/editors Thrawn posted: That said, I also try and understand my own biases - and I think that [i]hating characters is a slightly different issue. I'm curious to know more about the motives for your negative reaction. As I've said already, I think you're being inconsistent here, when you compare one character with another, but I'm interested in knowing why you responded the way you did... [/i] There's no "motive", I don't carry hidden agenda's and I don't roleplay. I just state things as I see them. I don't have the attachment to Gejjen, or Thracken, or numerous nameless Hapan's that I have for Pellaeon or even Shevu. We're not in a court of law, this isn't about being fair to everyone for me. Say Luke were to die, am I to compare the emotional response I feel from his death to the response I got from Twar Vatok's death, I don't think so. Thrawn posted: There seems to be a distinct shift in your mood here: you're describing feeling "hate" for one character as a result of an action, and apparently taking pleasure in both that experience and the idea of punishing that character; but then you're not showing any real emotional reaction to the comparable actions of other characters, and merely finding it potentially "fascinating" that they could be treated in a similar way. See Twar Vatok above. Thrawn posted: What is it that makes Tahiri different for you from Ben Skywalker, or Jaina Solo, or Boba Fett, or Rukh, or Darth Vader, in the list of characters who've assassinated senior officers aboard Star Destroyer flagships? My attachment to Pellaeon of course, I think this has been obvious, it's not like I'm hiding it. I'm not trying to. Add to that the way she killed Shevu, the reasons she killed Shevu. Again, there is no reason I have to break this all down in an impartial manner, nor do you. You want Tahiri absolved of her crimes, I want her head on a platter. Its all about our own personal perspectives on the issue. Thrawn posted: As to Jaina, she was clearly and knowingly going along with an assassination mission, whether out of a macho posturing she should have grown out of in [i]Dark Tide: Ruin[/i] She never went on an assassination mission. The point for Jaina was to go after Tahiri and draw out Jacen. She had no knowledge of Daala's orders to Fett. She was doing what she felt was right, how the law might look at the issue doesn't matter to me. Maybe you can point out why you feel Jaina was knowingly going on an assassination mission, because I don't see that at all. Even the Madalorians didn't know what their role would be until Daala sent the word. And yes, you will enjoy the Anakin Solo talk But he's still not going to get flow walked back to life. At least I hope not -----signature----- I am forever seeking the damutek of Hooley Krekk Oh, woe! Oh, misery! Oh, unhappiness. Hooley Krekk where are you? . http://www.cccomiccon.com http://www.actionfigurenews.ca
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ZanderSolo Registered: May '07	Date Posted: 7/5 3:59pm Subject: The Official Fate of the Jedi: Omen Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)
	Thrawn McEwok posted: I can't think of one character in "Legacy of the Force" who wasn't complicit in assassination and treason. To Act is to Betray....Not to Act is to Betray.... Makes a whole lot of sense now.....in a weird, creepy way. Allston pegged the whole series in one line. -----signature----- Make a move and ill stab your jugular. I dont have a jugular. Then ill keep stabbing you until i find someplace that bleeds copiously.
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Darth-Stoic Registered: Aug '08	Date Posted: 7/5 4:12pm Subject: The Official Fate of the Jedi: Omen Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed) - Date Edited: 7/5 4:26pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Darth-Stoic
	I just want some crazy lightsaber duels and non stop action and a lot of questions answered in Abyss... Give us an Inferno -----signature----- I believe in everything until it's disproved. So I believe in fairies, the myths, dragons. It all exists, even if it's in your mind. Who's to say that dreams and nightmares aren't as real as the here and now?
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GoA Registered: Dec '07	Date Posted: 7/5 4:30pm Subject: The Official Fate of the Jedi: Omen Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)
	Manisphere posted: Interesting. Omen made number 4 on the NYT Bestseller list. Seems we don't know what the hell we're talking about. FOTJ is just plain selling. It's got Star Wars on the cover. A book would have to be up against a host of other top sellers to not sell well so long as it has Star Wars on the cover. -----signature----- Everything I tell you is a lie
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S1thari Registered: Oct '08	Date Posted: 7/5 4:31pm Subject: The Official Fate of the Jedi: Omen Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)
	Darth-Stoic posted: I just want some crazy lightsaber duels and non stop action and a lot of questions answered in Abyss... Give us an Inferno Yeah, that's sort of what I'm hoping for. I don't need a ton of answers per se, as it's only the 3rd novel. But some INFERNO-esque battles and quality would be a huge relief, especially after the general mundanity of OUTCAST and OMEN.
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Darth-Stoic Registered: Aug '08	Date Posted: 7/5 5:33pm Subject: The Official Fate of the Jedi: Omen Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed) - Date Edited: 7/5 5:55pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Darth-Stoic
	yeah i guess i dont need to many answers either but however i would like it to clear out the cluster @!#$ of all these things going on in my mind that can happen and maybe just narrow it down to a few things -----signature----- I believe in everything until it's disproved. So I believe in fairies, the myths, dragons. It all exists, even if it's in your mind. Who's to say that dreams and nightmares aren't as real as the here and now?
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JediAlly Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 7/5 5:50pm Subject: The Official Fate of the Jedi: Omen Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)
	Darth-Stoic, you better get back here and edit your above post for language. -----signature----- A Gathering of Light - new site: http://boards.theforce.net/Beyond_the_Saga/b10477/15798221 Liberty and Custody: http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=14219579 Solo Rogue Jedi: http://boards.theforce.net/Beyond_the_Saga/b10477/15798533
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Manisphere Registered: Aug '07	Date Posted: 7/5 5:53pm Subject: The Official Fate of the Jedi: Omen Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)
	How is it the filters even let that word through? -----signature----- "Head of State, a Sith is just a Jedi who's gone off his meds."-Natasi Daala
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