Author Topic: The Official Fate of the Jedi: Omen Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)
ChildOfWinds  6253 posts
Registered: Apr '01
14696_Luke Skywalker
Date Posted: 7/3 12:19pm Subject: The Official Fate of the Jedi: Omen Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)
S1thari See, I just don't feel anything when it comes to Ben. There's nothing there, unlike Anakin.

I think part of the problem is that until LotF, we really didn't see much of Ben. He was an infant in a couple of the NJO books and then he was pushed into the maw. He had a slightly bigger role in the DN trilogy, and then, wouldn't you know, they would made him a Gorog Joiner at age 7. rolling_eyes sad This was really the readers' first glimpse into Ben and he wasn't made all that appealing right from the start.

Then, he was under the terrible influence of Darth Jacen who had him going on GAG patrols; assassinating heads of state; and trying to get the Falcon shot down at the age of THIRTEEN in LotF! sad We didn't get all that much that was positive about Ben like we did with Anakin, who had his own Junior Jedi series and Jacen and Jaina, who had the Young Jedi Knight series to establish their characters and show them as appealing, heroic characters. Ben got none of that. We got mostly negative portrayals until we finally saw a more positive side of Ben when he investigated his mother's death and when he helped redeem Tahiri.

Right now, he's still sort of an apprentice with his father. But I'm glad to see the two Skywalkers traveling together and working together because we didn't get much Luke/Ben interaction before, and most of what we did get was Ben's rift with Luke early in LotF.

At sixteen, Ben is finally old enough to be a believable hero, and I'm hoping to see an heroic Ben in FotJ.

But I disagree that Ben is Luke 2.0. I don't think they're that much alike. If anything, I would say that Ben is more like Mara than like Luke.




Darth-Ghost : Originally, originally, the NJO was going to start with Luke and Mara's children already grown up, and then have Jacen die in VECTOR PRIME and Troy Denning was originally planned to kill off Luke in STAR BY STAR,

Hmmm... That's different than what I heard. I did hear that originally Luke and Mara were supposed to have children at the beginning of Vector Prime, but they would have been very young. I guess they weren't sure what to do with young children during a massive war ( Probably the idea of the maw as a place of safety came to them later.), and they felt they already had enough characters, so the idea of little Skycrawlers was scrubbed for the beginning of the series.

I also heard that Luke was supposed to die in Vector Prime, and when Lucas vetoed that, Chewie was sacrificed instead. Jacen was supposed to die instead of Anakin. But I heard the same thing about Kathy Tyers lobbying to give Luke and Mara a child in BP as the planning team wasn't sure they were going to give Luke a child at all anymore, unless they did so at the very end of the NJO. But that was by no means a certainty. If not for Kathy Tyers, it's very possible that Luke would have had no children at all.

 

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Rouge77  7450 posts
Registered: May '05
6464_Anakin Solo
Date Posted: 7/3 1:09pm Subject: The Official Fate of the Jedi: Omen Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed) - Date Edited: 7/3 1:42pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Rouge77
DR clearly wants to make Ben the new hero, but the fact that DR is so eager in this may well backfire. I dislike the character already because other characters have been killed to make way for him, but there's also very much, perhaps too much, effort to make him interesting and the center of things, first in the form of a 13-14 -year old antihero in LotF and now in a more heroic form in FotJ, and it can work against the character. As is him going through very similar experiences as other central characters have done before (Ben often succeeding better than they did), which looks like they would be going through a checklist. Too much effort and it all starts looking like force-feeding him to the readers as the new stereotypical Star Wars hero.

 

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S1thari  675 posts
Registered: Oct '08
48853_Darth Caedus (711092)
Date Posted: 7/3 1:33pm Subject: The Official Fate of the Jedi: Omen Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)
ChildOfWinds posted:
At sixteen, Ben is finally old enough to be a believable hero, and I'm hoping to see an heroic Ben in FotJ.

But I disagree that Ben is Luke 2.0. I don't think they're that much alike. If anything, I would say that Ben is more like Mara than like Luke.


See, I'm just not interested in any of that. There are plenty of heroes in the SWU; too many, even. The Jedi Order is full of "heroes." I'm not saying that I'd prefer him to be a villain, or a Sith. I'm just not very impressed with where I see his character going... his path is too similar to Luke's own for my taste, and I'm sorry to say, but it feels like they're just setting him up to take his father's place. That's just... boring to me. plain

Rouge77 posted:
DR clearly wants to make Ben the new hero, put the fact that DR is so eager in this may well backfire. I dislike the character already because other characters have been killed to make way for him, but there's also very much, perhaps too much, effort to make him interesting and the center of things, first in the form of a 13-14 -year old antihero in LotF and now in a more heroic form in FotJ, and it can work against the character. As is him going through very similar experiences as other central characters, often better than they before, which looks like they would be going through a checklist. Too much effort and it all starts looking like force-feeding him to the readers as the new stereotypical Star Wars hero.


Exactly.

 

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ChildOfWinds  6253 posts
Registered: Apr '01
14696_Luke Skywalker
Date Posted: 7/3 1:37pm Subject: The Official Fate of the Jedi: Omen Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed) - Date Edited: 7/3 1:38pm (1 edits total) Edited By: ChildOfWinds
S1thari : I'm just not interested in any of that. There are plenty of heroes in the SWU; too many, even. The Jedi Order is full of "heroes." I'm not saying that I'd prefer him to be a villain, or a Sith. I'm just not very impressed with where I see his character going...his path is too similar to Luke's own for my taste,

I guess I really disagree that Ben's path has been like Luke's.


So what WOULD you have liked to have seen for Ben's character?

 

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Lord_Onveh  51 posts
Registered: Mar '09
Date Posted: 7/3 2:06pm Subject: The Official Fate of the Jedi: Omen Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)
Now that is the question, isn't it Child of Winds?

I say I want him to be a hero. But that doesn't answer your question. That's a very HARD question to answer, because noone knows what they want with Ben. Do they want him to become the next Grand Master? Probably not. Do they want him to become a good Jedi Master? Probably. It's just so hard to come up with a PLAN for him because he's coming after the solo family. Everything laid out for him was already laid out for them. So we want something new. . .but. . .okay? See. Hard to tell.

 

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Rouge77  7450 posts
Registered: May '05
6464_Anakin Solo
Date Posted: 7/3 2:10pm Subject: The Official Fate of the Jedi: Omen Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed) - Date Edited: 7/3 2:12pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Rouge77
Lord_Onveh posted:
I say I want him to be a hero. But that doesn't answer your question. That's a very HARD question to answer, because noone knows what they want with Ben. Do they want him to become the next Grand Master? Probably not. Do they want him to become a good Jedi Master? Probably. It's just so hard to come up with a PLAN for him because he's coming after the solo family. Everything laid out for him was already laid out for them. So we want something new. . .but. . .okay? See. Hard to tell.


But the Solo kid were discarded in favour to Ben, to make room for him, which gives possibility for different kind of stories about Ben in the not so distanty future. Of course, for the duration of FotJ he will be in a very similar situation as they were (and in case of Jaina, still is) from the beginning of NJO, but after the next time jump beyond FotJ he might well be made the youngest Jedi Master ever and then a member of the Jedi Council and have his own apprentice(s), all things which the Solo kids never achieved. (Jaina might get to be Jedi Master yet, but based on Legacy, her future lies beyond the Jedi Order.)

 

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S1thari  675 posts
Registered: Oct '08
48853_Darth Caedus (711092)
Date Posted: 7/3 2:12pm Subject: The Official Fate of the Jedi: Omen Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed) - Date Edited: 7/3 3:02pm (2 edits total) Edited By: S1thari
ChildOfWinds posted:
I guess I really disagree that Ben's path has been like Luke's.


So what WOULD you have liked to have seen for Ben's character?


Having been secretly practicing the flow-walking technique he learned from the Aing-Tii without Luke's knowledge, Ben grows more and more fixated with the prospect of flow-walking into the past in order to stop Jacen from turning dark and killing his Mother. Although he'd seemingly learned his lesson the first time he traveled back to visit Jacen in the Kathol Rift, seeing his Mother's Force-ghost in the Maw (as described in the blurb for ABYSS) weighed heavily on his heart, and all of the grief and hatred for what his cousin did to him and his father comes rushing back to him as intensely as it had when it originally happened. As Jedi continue to go Mad on Coruscant, the possibility of changing everything -- possibly even preventing his father from being exiled and the Jedi from going Mad -- becomes too much for Ben to bear after flow-walking into the future and seeing nothing but darkness surrounding the Jedi's fate (Fate of the Jedi). He'll come to the realization that if he doesn't do something immediately -- Ben and Luke's journey to retrace Jacen's steps will continue to prove futile in their efforts to learn why Jacen fell -- he leaves Luke and sets off on his own journey to retrace Jacen's steps, but not in the way Luke had originally intended. Knowing that his father can't and won't understand, Ben decides to flow-walk into the past starting with Jacen's return from his sojourn in an effort to collect as much intelligence on every event leading up to Mara's death on Kavan as possible in order to decide on a course of action.

Of course, not everything will go according to plan. Driven by his grief and determination to "fix" the past (of course, the fact that the past cannot be altered or changed as established in INVINCIBLE will somehow need to be called into question at some point in order for Ben to believe that changing the past is an actual possibility), Ben embarks on his own journey through time, failing to stop Jacen at every turn. Luke pursues Ben across the galaxy, determined to stop him from meddling with the past. Eventually, he'll have to travel back to the Kathol Rift and learn how to flow-walk in order to confront Ben and reason with him. This will ultimately create a rift in their relationship, with Ben on one side determined to do anyting in order to stop Jacen, and Luke on the other, determined to stop Ben.

Ultimately, I'd like the result of this plot to help Ben see that following in his father's footsteps isn't the fate he wants for himself. Ben won't fall to the dark side per se, but he'll come to believe that finding his own path to destiny is the only way to give his life any real meaning. This way, he won't be burdened with following in Luke's footsteps and he won't feel obligated to lead the Jedi Order when or if his father is no longer in the picture. The PTB would be free to explore Ben's character in a way that won't necessarily make it seem like they're trying to force him down Luke's path -- something I feel they've already started to do.

And if he ends up finding that leading the Jedi into the next generation is his destiny, at least it won't feel so forced and constrained....

 

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Lord_Onveh  51 posts
Registered: Mar '09
Date Posted: 7/3 3:42pm Subject: The Official Fate of the Jedi: Omen Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed) - Date Edited: 7/3 3:44pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Lord_Onveh
. . .

Brilliant.

Wow. So when do you start working for Del Ray? They need you. Badly.

Rogue77: Yes the solo kids were discarded for Ben. The reason being because you can't have Ben doing the same thing as the other kids, because of the difference in age the solos should always be doing it better, so they kill off the solos to allow Ben to do what the solos would've done. That's my take on it.

 

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Havac  14251 posts
Title: Lit Mod of War
Registered: Sep '05
23735_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 7/3 4:07pm Subject: The Official Fate of the Jedi: Omen Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)
Anakin's unique and Ben is just like Luke? I think that's completely backwards. Anakin was always Luke 2.0. The brash, good-hearted, earnest kid who never really struggled with darkness. Heck, right down to the Anakin-Skywalker's-legacy issues. What distinguishes Anakin from Luke, other than getting his training started earlier? When did young Anakin act like young Luke never would have acted?

Look at Ben, though. He's got a good heart, yes, but that's after struggling with the ideas of pure utilitarianism that Jacen instilled in him; he had to rediscover his own moral center, as it were. He was trained for years by a dark-leaning Jedi; for a year, he was the Jedi apprentice to a Sith Lord. He's got a pragmatic streak left over from that, though he's still got his idealism. He's got investigative training that's a large part of that pragmatic streak. He's got a sarcastic, somewhat skeptical personality. As has been said, he's much more like his mother than his father in terms of personality; it's only his father's idealism and good intentions that he's inherited. Young Ben has and does act at times like young Luke wouldn't have. I think he's much more distinct than, say, Kol, who basically fits the Luke Skywalker mold of "Powerful, moral, good Jedi." Sure, he's not Cade or Nat, who are interested in actively rejecting Luke's legacy, but Ben's personality is far from being a carbon copy of Luke Skywalker.

 

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S1thari  675 posts
Registered: Oct '08
48853_Darth Caedus (711092)
Date Posted: 7/3 4:37pm Subject: The Official Fate of the Jedi: Omen Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed) - Date Edited: 7/3 4:52pm (4 edits total) Edited By: S1thari
I think you guys are somewhat missing my point, or maybe I couldn't convey it as cleary as I intended. I'm not saying that Ben's personality or abilities are exactly the same as Luke's, I'm saying his path -- what he's being set up to become in LOTF, FOTJ, and any other series or novel that might come next -- is Luke's heir. Can you honestly say that the probability of Ben not becoming the next Jedi Grand Master, or the next SW "hero," is higher than the possibility of him becoming just that? I can't. That's mostly what I'm trying to get at. I'd like to see Ben's character take a different direction other than the one that most fans have been predicting for him since he was born. I'd like to see him take another path, rather than continue to read about the stereotypical Skywalker hero's ascension. It bores me. That's all really.

 

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Darth-Ghost  5691 posts
Registered: Oct '03
48129_Anakin Skywalker (42109)
Date Posted: 7/3 5:19pm Subject: The Official Fate of the Jedi: Omen Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed) - Date Edited: 7/3 5:20pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Darth-Ghost
S1thari posted:
I think you guys are somewhat missing my point, or maybe I couldn't convey it as cleary as I intended. I'm not saying that Ben's personality or abilities are exactly the same as Luke's, I'm saying his path -- what he's being set up to become in LOTF, FOTJ, and any other series or novel that might come next -- is Luke's heir. Can you honestly say that the probability of Ben not becoming the next Jedi Grand Master, or the next SW "hero," is higher than the possibility of him becoming just that? I can't. That's mostly what I'm trying to get at. I'd like to see Ben's character take a different direction other than the one that most fans have been predicting for him since he was born. I'd like to see him take another path, rather than continue to read about the stereotypical Skywalker hero's ascension. It bores me. That's all really.


But isn't that what everyone wanted Anakin Solo to be, on the path to be the next Luke Skywalker, the next big hero, the stereotypical hero's ascension? Del Rey surprised everyone, clearly and decisively showeing that would not be the case.

And even Luke Skywalker isn't that decisive, or always that good-hearted, anymore



I hope to think that the authors are planning a different path for Ben Skywalker too, there's no evidence to say they aren't. Ben is just the first person to really live with the "Skywalker legacy," which Nat and Cade later find to be crushing with too-high expectations.

 

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Havac  14251 posts
Title: Lit Mod of War
Registered: Sep '05
23735_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 7/3 8:31pm Subject: The Official Fate of the Jedi: Omen Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed) - Date Edited: 7/3 8:33pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Havac
Yeah, Anakin Solo was right on Luke's path. Ben might be too, or the authors might go elsewhere with it. I would agree Ben's on the path to becoming the next big Jedi hero . . . but so were Anakin and then Jacen. That's not a "Luke 2.0" thing . . . it's a "main character" thing. Ben might be the next leading Jedi Master, but as Kol Skywalker showed, you can be the leading Jedi Master without being Luke Skywalker. Kol rejected politics and moved away from front-line training to embrace his love of teaching. That's not a role we've really seen Luke in as Grand Master. Ben could very well likewise do something different. With Luke likely to last a rather long time as "the leader", we may see Ben on the front lines as an active young Jedi most of his career, and not "the big leader" at all.

If being "Luke 2.0" were as simple as being the big leader of the Jedi, the main Jedi character, or the primary hero, then Yoda, Mace, Obi-Wan, and Qui-Gon were all Luke 2.0. Heck, so was Nomi Sunrider. They'd all be "sterotypical Skywalker heroes" if that was all it took. The difference is in the personality, the abilities, the little personal inclinations.

I certainly wouldn't complain if Ben became a Master, but not a Grand Master and not the leading Master. If he were more different from Luke than just being a Grand Master with different inclinations and personality. I'd love it. But I also don't think that having Ben become a leading Jedi (and I'm not convinced that's necessarily the path he has to be on right now) is as simple as his becoming Luke 2.0, or that it makes him less creative or exciting than the various other leading Jedi characters we've seen. It certainly doesn't put him at any kind of advantage or disadvantage in regard to Anakin Solo.

 

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killfire  1821 posts
Registered: Jan '01
42092_Darth Talon
Date Posted: 7/4 1:13am Subject: The Official Fate of the Jedi: Omen Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)
I guess what it boils down to is the LFL/DelRey fixation on the Skywalker name.

IMHO it would have worked better if Ben had been a Jedi in the temple, learning, with force powers above everage, but not special, in LOTF, and his part had been taken by, say, Valin Horn. Jacen would have killed Corran instead of Mara, with Jaina bringing Jacen down in the end of LOTF as she did. Ben could grow up to be wise Jedi as a sideline, eventually marry and have a son named Kol. But the main Jedi focus would be non-Skywalker Jedi for a while.

But of course your marketing team would advise against it.

 

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NelanisGhost  2169 posts
Registered: Jun '06
14535_Yuuzhan Vong High Priestess
Date Posted: 7/4 2:17am Subject: The Official Fate of the Jedi: Omen Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)
killfire posted:
I guess what it boils down to is the LFL/DelRey fixation on the Skywalker name.

IMHO it would have worked better if Ben had been a Jedi in the temple, learning, with force powers above everage, but not special, in LOTF, and his part had been taken by, say, Valin Horn. Jacen would have killed Corran instead of Mara, with Jaina bringing Jacen down in the end of LOTF as she did. Ben could grow up to be wise Jedi as a sideline, eventually marry and have a son named Kol. But the main Jedi focus would be non-Skywalker Jedi for a while.

But of course your marketing team would advise against it.


I agree. The main thing with Ben is he wasn't likable as others have said, for the longest time. Now he's "OK", IMO. He was a spoiled brat that didn't even have the Solo's impeccable manners. He was disrespectful of his parents and is already a killer. He is still rude and doesn't respect his elders. He has no purity. He is a good person but a tainted one. It was an unfair start to his character. Now, Ben has little history and the overall feeling is that he hasn't earned anything. He never was with the other students, and has never studied the force the way he was supposed to. Luke can correct some of that, but it seems like special privilege to me and he's not that skilled of a force user. I do feel him being with Luke is a good thing because he seems to need a steadying hand. The bad part of it is, that Luke is blinded by love, and Ben is somewhat secretive. Still I think Ben will turn out to be a good man but he starts out with a disadvantage.

 

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Darth-Ghost  5691 posts
Registered: Oct '03
48129_Anakin Skywalker (42109)
Date Posted: 7/4 10:50am Subject: The Official Fate of the Jedi: Omen Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed) - Date Edited: 7/4 10:56am (1 edits total) Edited By: Darth-Ghost
killfire posted:
I guess what it boils down to is the LFL/DelRey fixation on the Skywalker name.

IMHO it would have worked better if Ben had been a Jedi in the temple, learning, with force powers above everage, but not special, in LOTF, and his part had been taken by, say, Valin Horn. Jacen would have killed Corran instead of Mara, with Jaina bringing Jacen down in the end of LOTF as she did. Ben could grow up to be wise Jedi as a sideline, eventually marry and have a son named Kol. But the main Jedi focus would be non-Skywalker Jedi for a while.

But of course your marketing team would advise against it.


That would have been a very bad idea, IMO.

LOTF set up how Ben will be DIFFERENT from Luke, while still being a Skywalker (redeeming Tahiri).

NelanisGhost posted:
killfire posted:
I guess what it boils down to is the LFL/DelRey fixation on the Skywalker name.

IMHO it would have worked better if Ben had been a Jedi in the temple, learning, with force powers above everage, but not special, in LOTF, and his part had been taken by, say, Valin Horn. Jacen would have killed Corran instead of Mara, with Jaina bringing Jacen down in the end of LOTF as she did. Ben could grow up to be wise Jedi as a sideline, eventually marry and have a son named Kol. But the main Jedi focus would be non-Skywalker Jedi for a while.

But of course your marketing team would advise against it.


I agree. The main thing with Ben is he wasn't likable as others have said, for the longest time. Now he's "OK", IMO. He was a spoiled brat that didn't even have the Solo's impeccable manners. He was disrespectful of his parents and is already a killer. He is still rude and doesn't respect his elders. He has no purity. He is a good person but a tainted one. It was an unfair start to his character. Now, Ben has little history and the overall feeling is that he hasn't earned anything. He never was with the other students, and has never studied the force the way he was supposed to. Luke can correct some of that, but it seems like special privilege to me and he's not that skilled of a force user. I do feel him being with Luke is a good thing because he seems to need a steadying hand. The bad part of it is, that Luke is blinded by love, and Ben is somewhat secretive. Still I think Ben will turn out to be a good man but he starts out with a disadvantage.


Ben is a KID!

Having impeccable manners, especially as a kid (and as son of Mara), is not only unrealistic but boring!

He was saved from the dark, and now has the motivation to try to give others a chance to be redeemed as well. He now abhors the dark side and the imperial way, when before he was questioning how it could have been that bad, as long as it works.

I agree he should have more friends his own age.

Of course he needs to have weaknesses, and it's great that it's a different weakness than Luke's.

 

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