Author Topic: 181st Imperial Discussion Group: The Courtship of Princess Leia!
DarthIktomi  1380 posts
Registered: May '09
19073_Luke and Mara Family
Date Posted: 7/3 8:13pm Subject: 181st Imperial Discussion Group: The Courtship of Princess Leia!
Steering it back on-topic:

Liliedhe posted:
But Vader is her father. He is who she agonizes about. If she fell, her ROLE might be more like Palpatine (see the Empress vision in Planet of Twilight), but the power she fears, and the desire and rage, she would attribute to Vader.

Very true. But I don't know if she blames Vader for Alderaan; people forget that Tarkin gave the order.

Vader did torture her, though. Only Luke was ever deliberately tortured by both Sith.

 

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Liliedhe  493 posts
Registered: Feb '09
14356_Depa Billaba
Date Posted: 7/4 2:40am Subject: 181st Imperial Discussion Group: The Courtship of Princess Leia!
No, it seems to be Tarkin most whom she blames. She's afraid of Vader in her, of having the same powers and the same flaws that made him a monster. This is has less to do with anything Vader did to her, and more with what Anakin had become - if Anakin, who supposedly was a good person once, could be come such a monster, then she - who considers herself to be far less good - could go that road with ease.

 

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DarthIktomi  1380 posts
Registered: May '09
19073_Luke and Mara Family
Date Posted: 7/4 5:35am Subject: 181st Imperial Discussion Group: The Courtship of Princess Leia! - Date Edited: 7/4 5:35am (1 edits total) Edited By: DarthIktomi
I don't know how she feels about herself compared to Anakin. I really have trouble comparing Leia to Anakin. Slave who came from out of nowhere to defeat the Separatists v. princess who dedicated the best years of her life to fighting for democracy.

 

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JediAlly  3332 posts
Registered: Oct '00
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Date Posted: 7/4 1:36pm Subject: 181st Imperial Discussion Group: The Courtship of Princess Leia! - Date Edited: 7/4 1:48pm (1 edits total) Edited By: JediAlly
I remember reading this novel, and at the time, I didn't know about the Glove of Vader/Jedi Prince series. This novel did a much better job detailing their marriage than that series.

Now let's consider the main story - Han's and Leia's marriage. Or more precisely, the unexpected wrinkle - an arranged marriage with Prince Isolder. Now, overall, none of us can really consider Isolder to be the bad guy. He fell in love with Leia at first sight. Who can blame him for that? And in his mind, this marriage would be mutually benefitial - he would be with the woman he had fallen in love with, and the New Republic would gain a powerful ally.

If the blame for this entire situation can be placed on anyone's shoulders, it would be Leia. Or at least primarily Leia. I'll get back to her in a minute, but first Mon Mothma and NR council should also deserve some of the blame as well. They're intent on gaining new allies and new fundings, since The Krytos Trap had established that the NR was bankrupt. After everything Han and Leia have done for the NR, they should respect them and their wishes. But instead, they seem to brush aside Han's feelings for Leia. This gave birth to a resentment in Han towards the leaders. That resentment was resolved in Tatooine Ghost, but it reappeared in the Thrawn Trilogy and the Jedi Academy Trilogy. He wants to have as much as a normal life as possible with Leia - marriage and raising a family - yet they keep interfering. The issue was rendered somewhat academic in the Champions of the Force when Leia became Chief of State.

Now back to Leia. I think it was who said that she was willing to risk her life to serve the Rebellion, and later the New Republic. It had become something of an obsession for her. How much of it is to bring down the Empire and how much of it is to somehow "atone" for her father's role in the formation of the Empire, I don't know. But there should have been a point where she had a few moments for herself. She looked at her life, and she began defining the line. What is she willing to do to help the New Republic? How much of her personal life and affairs will she allow the New Republic to compromise? Luke more or less made those choices after Mindor. He got tired of being in the military, and he no longer wanted to be in a position where he would lead so many good soldiers to their deaths. And he still had Master Yoda's last command - Pass on what you have learned. He was charged with reestablishing the Jedi Order. He knew he could help the New Republic best by reestablishing the Jedi Order, just as Corran knew in I, Jedi he could help the New Republic best by being in Rogue Squadron. Leia, on the other hand, never drew the line. She never sat down with Mon Mothma and established some personal guidelines as to what she would be willing to do and what she wouldn't be willing to do. That created a lot of problems for her for years to come. This scenario, her pregnancy (Han saying in no uncertain terms at the beginning of The Last Command that she's making time to see the med people once they get back to Coruscant), her Jedi training (though that's a separate issue), and her children. Jaina harbored resentment, as we've seen in Balance Point and Dark Journey, and though that seemed to have dissipated in the Enemy Lines duology, I think it still lingers in her. Jacen had a little, as we've seen in that one scene in Conquest. Anakin didn't seem to have any, but he had a lot on his plate as it was with his namesake.

I could see Leia entering a political marriage, but she wouldn't have been happy. More importantly, she wouldn't have lived long afterwards. She would have had to tell Isolder the truth about her heritage. It was obvious he didn't know, given his reaction when he saw how close Luke and Leia were. And it's reasonable to believe Ta'a Chume didn't know as well. Given how Ta'a Chume was, I'm certain she tried to have Leia assassinated, and had Leia married Isolder, she would have made another attempt. I'll get back to Ta'a Chume later.

I think Han had had enough with Leia being a princess and savior of the NR all the time. He wanted Leia to be a woman for a change. To make her decisions as a woman would, rather than a politician or famous hero would. I think that was one of the main reasons why he did what he did. Incidentally, I have to say we've seen him get into schemes before, but this time, he outdid himself big time. He got himself in WAY over his head. I wouldn't have blamed Chewie if he decided to knock Han around a little for kidnapping Leia. I also think Leia got a little bit of revenge on Han by leaving him with the other male slaves and wrangle the whuffa, and by conspiring with Augwynne Djo on relinquishing his claim on Dathomir. Though in all honesty, I think Han's the kind of guy who believes in "possession being 9/10 the law". Meaning he would evict Zsinj's forces and the Nightsisters, but not the Witches. However, he wouldn't have just given them the deed for free. He gambled a lot of credits to get it, so he deserved to be compensated financially for it. If the Witches had been slaves themselves, however, then yes, he would have given it to them for free.

Meanwhile, Luke's off searching for any Jedi records to further his own training. He's innocent of the entire affair. If he had been there from the beginning, I think he could have gotten Han, Leia, and Mon Mothma together, and help Leia define the line. Unfortunately, by the time he finds out, it's too late to stop Han, so all he could do was figuratively shake his head in exasperation, and then go to find the wayward lovebirds.

Luke finding out about Dathomir - I don't know if it was convenient, but it was good fortune. As he said to Isolder, "Han would never knowingly put Leia's life in danger." Han might have learned about Dathomir being in Zsinj's territory too late (as in after he won the sabacc game), but he sure didn't know about the Witches or the Nightsisters.

Now let's bring up Ta'a Chume and Luke's meeting with her. He might have been curious about how she looked. And I have to say she's definitely an example of aging gracefully. However, he could tell right away that she was cut from the cloth as Palpatine and Borsk Fey'lya. Though she and Fey'lya shared the same saving grace - neither were Force-sensitive - she definitely shared Palpatine's view toward the Jedi. Those of you who watched Everybody Loves Raymond, remember Doris Roberts' role Marie - the meddling mother-in-law? Ta'a Chume was much worse than she was. She wants to insure that her successor was worthy of her, and she went to extremes to do that. Arranging her son's death and the death of Isolder's first fiancé. Trying to manipulate Tenel Ka's upbringing. Arranging Teneniel Djo's assassination. Forcing Tenel Ka to become Queen Mother and leave the Jedi. The final straw was threatening the life of Tenel Ka's and Jacen's daughter Allana. I want to go off topic for a moment here. I know what Jacen did to Ta'a Chume in The Unseen Queen, and under the circumstances, Jacen did the right thing. When Jacen confronted her, Ta'a Chume dictated the rules of the engagement and the consequences should she be killed or jailed. Jacen did the only thing he could think of that would put Ta'a Chume permanently "out of play" without killing her or imprisoning her, while making certain Allana's life wouldn't be threatened. It might not have been proper justice, but it was definitely a case of "taking what one could get in war".

Isolder, on the hand, I had no problem with. He might have grown up like an aristocrat, but he stepped outside that life and lived as a pirate while searching for the supposed killer of his brother. He learned what life was really like "outside the palace", so as to speak, and he remembered those lessons for the rest of his life.

Anyway, back to the story. Luke "training" Isolder while they traveled across Dathomir - at first, I thought that was strange. But when you consider the current Clone Wars Cartoon, especially the episode Ambush, where Yoda offered counsel to the clone troopers, it's not that strange.

I view Dathomir as I do Dantooine and Maridun - worlds where the inhabitants - Dathomiri Witches, Dantari, and Lurmen respectively - live in harmony with the world.

Now one cannot talk about Luke's and Isolder's trek without mentioning Luke's encounter with Teneniel Djo. When you read how she captured Luke and what her intentions were towards Luke - you cannot help but laugh at that. That encounter was enough to make Tenel Ka blush madly and even laugh in embarrasment. I'm certain a lot of women would actually hold Teneniel in high regard considering how ambitious she was. I have to wonder if Mara and Teneniel Djo ever met. If they had, I'm certain Teneniel would have told Mara about that moment and even give Mara a few suggestions. blush wink laugh grin I also wonder if Tenel Ka told this story to Jacen, Jaina, Lowie, and M-TD in Lightsabers. Not only would they have been shocked, but they might have gooten a good laugh out of it. And I'm certain when they met Teneniel Djo for the first time, they definitely didn't view her like they would view Lowie's or Raynar's mothers.

I have wonder if Dave Wolverton decided to do a gender-bender spin on a preconception in this novel. In real life, and perhaps most novel, we often see and hear of men treating women as sex objects. Considering that Hapes and Dathomir were matriarchal societies, and given how they apparently treat men, you have to wonder if Wolverton decided to have the women in those societies treat men as sex objects. laugh

The attraction between Luke and Teneniel was good, and a part of me often wondered how things could have been if Luke and Teneniel got married. But then we wouldn't have Tenel Ka.

The showdown between Han and Isolder in the Falcon - Isolder was able to get a measure of Han's character, just as he did when he offered Han several Hapan ships if Han would back off. But I know he wanted to knock Han's head off. I'm certain Luke would have wanted to literally knock some sense into Han. But getting back to Isolder, he knew about Chewie, and that's what kept him in check. I think in cases like this, Chewie wouldn't have gotten involved. This was a personal matter between Han and Isolder, and he had no right to interfere. As a side benefit, Isolder would give Han the knocking around Chewie probably would have wanted to give to Han in the first place.

As for the Witches and Nightsisters, I see them as Force adepts trained in their own ways, but lacking the formal training Jedi Knights receive. Some of the witches might have been powerful in their own right, and only they could have measured up against Luke. Someone earlier said that Palpatine feared Gethzerion. That's not exactly correct. If we had Gethzerion vs. Palpatine, Palpatine would have won because he was much more powerful. But if it were Palpatine vs. all the Nightsisters, that would have gone the other way. Leia said that Palpatine feared the Nightsisters, and I think it's more of a case of fearing their collective power, rather than individual Nightsisters. And yet, Palpatine knew about them. He knew about the Chu'unthor. He also knew that Sai Sircu and her group joined Dooku and the Separatists in the Jedi Alliance game. I think he was content to leaving the Witches and Nightsisters on Dathomir, cut off from the rest of the galaxy. None of them would pose a threat to him. Once Zsinj or whomever it was set up that prison on the planet, Palpatine was faced with the possibility of the Nightsisters escaping and causing havoc to his orderly Empire, so he dealt with the problem before it began.

The battles were nicely done, and there were two major highlights. The first was when Han offered to surrender himself in order to save the prisoners. This is when Leia realized that this was what she loved about Han. What she had forgotten about Han. And why she knew she couldn't marry Isolder. The second was how Luke recovered. It wasn't him using the Force to heal himself. And it wasn't him using the Force to heal another, like he did to Teneniel. It was almost as if the Force itself healed Luke. Was this a hint of "the Force having a will"? The thing Anakin pledged himself to in Conquest while attuning the lambent to his lightsaber? Or is this the first indication that Luke's power and control of the Force was beginning to approach those of a Master's. There's ample evidence of the latter when he flew the Falcon single-handedly, using the Force to help him do so.

I also liked how Isolder and Teneniel put Ta'a Chume in her place when they announced their plans to get married and to join the New Republic. And here I was hoping Ta'a Chume would disappear into EU limbo.

Last minute thoughts

Chu'unthor - this was one of the main reasons why Luke eventually planned on coming to Dathomir in the first place. A mobile academy made sense. Yet despite all its importance, the wreckage has gone into EU limbo. I think it only got a mention in Shadow Academy and one of WotC's RPG adventures - Nightsaber or Rebel Jedi.

Dathomir vs. Hapes - We got a good description of Dathomir in this novel, while Hapes' was postponed until Lightsabers. Yet Hapes got more "on-screen" time than Dathomir. After this novel, Dathomir appeared in one of the RPG adventures I mentioned above and Shadow Academy. Hapes was seen in Lightsabers, Jedi Eclipse, Dark Journey, the Dark Nest Trilogy, and in the LOTF. Also, when you compare the societies, I think we can all understand why Tenel Ka preferred the rugged honesty of Dathomir to the veiled political-machinations of Hapes. Sometimes I wonder if Teneniel ever felt that as much as she loved Isolder, if she had to do it over again, she would have chosen Dathomir over Hapes. I'm only saying that because of how she was portrayed in Jedi Eclipse and Dark Journey - something akin to how Padmé lost the will to live at the end of ROTS. However, I do think both societies would share one thing in common - if the women and girls on both planets were to ever hear The Cheetah Girls song Girl Power, they would love it. They would even join in and sing with them. If you don't know that song, look it up on YouTube.

Overall - while there were some disturbing scenes in this book - scenes that would warrant a PG-13 rating, it was definitely a good read and a major milestone in H/L relationship and in Luke's journey to rebuild the Jedi Order.

Question - why did you decide to make Hero's Trial the next book to discuss. If we were to get into the NJO, I would think we'd start at the beginning - Vector Prime?

 

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beccatoria  1923 posts
Title: Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group
Registered: Dec '06
43404_Luke & Leia
Date Posted: 7/4 1:43pm Subject: 181st Imperial Discussion Group: The Courtship of Princess Leia!
DarthIktomi posted:
I don't know how she feels about herself compared to Anakin. I really have trouble comparing Leia to Anakin. Slave who came from out of nowhere to defeat the Separatists v. princess who dedicated the best years of her life to fighting for democracy.


Well...I think that a discussion on Leia's personality, since her characterisation in this novel is under debate, still qualifies as on-topic. So! happy

You aren't the first person who I've seen view the issue this way and certainly the canonical view often seems to fall in line with Leia=Padme and Luke=Anakin in terms of personality; an assumption I think comes from the way they break down in terms of physical resemblance and chosen profession.

However, I very much think that in terms of personality, you have it the wrong way around.

Padme is the one who is patient, passive, loving and unwavering in her belief that there is good in everything, and everything is worth saving. I think this is very much like Luke who, despite decades of training and dedication turning him into an extraordinary warrior, is first and foremost a farmboy, someone who would rather a peaceful solution and who sees the good in everyone.

Anakin has a temper, is easily frustrated, extremely passionate and slow to forgive. I see Leia as very much like this. Her cause and passion is justice and she was raised with democracy as an ethical model, unlike Anakin who was raised as a slave and in a non-democratic warrior-monk society. But Anakin's frustration that they can't just have a government that MAKES everyone do the right thing, is the same as Leia's. She just has a much, much more sophisticated understanding of the ethical complexities of governance. The same way it's Luke's training and innate strength in the Force that makes him an incredible warrior, not an instinctive love of fighting such as you might find in Mace Windu or Anakin Skywalker, it's Leia's years of training in politics that have left her with the ability to be patient and see all sides of the issue. And in fact we frequently get snippets from her perspective about how frustrated she is with the political system and the red tape, even though she forces herself to abide by it.

The only real difference between Leia and Anakin in terms of personality is that Leia has the self-control to mute her impulses that Anakin always lacked.

 

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JediAlly  3332 posts
Registered: Oct '00
6537_Green Lightsaber
Date Posted: 7/4 1:59pm Subject: 181st Imperial Discussion Group: The Courtship of Princess Leia!
beccatoria posted:
DarthIktomi posted:
I don't know how she feels about herself compared to Anakin. I really have trouble comparing Leia to Anakin. Slave who came from out of nowhere to defeat the Separatists v. princess who dedicated the best years of her life to fighting for democracy.


Well...I think that a discussion on Leia's personality, since her characterisation in this novel is under debate, still qualifies as on-topic. So! happy

You aren't the first person who I've seen view the issue this way and certainly the canonical view often seems to fall in line with Leia=Padme and Luke=Anakin in terms of personality; an assumption I think comes from the way they break down in terms of physical resemblance and chosen profession.

However, I very much think that in terms of personality, you have it the wrong way around.

Padme is the one who is patient, passive, loving and unwavering in her belief that there is good in everything, and everything is worth saving. I think this is very much like Luke who, despite decades of training and dedication turning him into an extraordinary warrior, is first and foremost a farmboy, someone who would rather a peaceful solution and who sees the good in everyone.

Anakin has a temper, is easily frustrated, extremely passionate and slow to forgive. I see Leia as very much like this. Her cause and passion is justice and she was raised with democracy as an ethical model, unlike Anakin who was raised as a slave and in a non-democratic warrior-monk society. But Anakin's frustration that they can't just have a government that MAKES everyone do the right thing, is the same as Leia's. She just has a much, much more sophisticated understanding of the ethical complexities of governance. The same way it's Luke's training and innate strength in the Force that makes him an incredible warrior, not an instinctive love of fighting such as you might find in Mace Windu or Anakin Skywalker, it's Leia's years of training in politics that have left her with the ability to be patient and see all sides of the issue. And in fact we frequently get snippets from her perspective about how frustrated she is with the political system and the red tape, even though she forces herself to abide by it.

The only real difference between Leia and Anakin in terms of personality is that Leia has the self-control to mute her impulses that Anakin always lacked.



I see what you're saying about Leia taking after Anakin terms of being frustrated with politics. She's definitely a merging of Padmé and Bail, in that they have an understanding of politics, and Anakin, in that he's often frustrated with politics - be it Republic or Jedi Council. Yet Anakin's desire to have a government that made everyone do the right thing is like asking for a dictatorship. Leia's frustration with politics reaches the climax in Star By Star, where she effectively turned her back on the government and on the New Republic. I think she also got that from her parents. Padmé got sick of the bureaucratic mire in the Senate when Naboo was invaded, so she called for a vote of no-confidence, hoping that someone new would be able to "clean house" and went home to deal with the invasion personally. Bail eventually helped form the Rebellion to overthrow Palpatine. And Anakin helped Palpatine sieze power because he no longer believed in democracy since it wasn't the kind of government that made everyone do the right thing.

However, there was very little politics in the novel, aside from the proposed Leia/Isolder political marriage. So I don't see how this train of thoughts have anything to do with the novel. In a book like Star By Star, that's a different matter.

 

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beccatoria  1923 posts
Title: Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group
Registered: Dec '06
43404_Luke & Leia
Date Posted: 7/4 4:20pm Subject: 181st Imperial Discussion Group: The Courtship of Princess Leia!
JediAlly posted:
However, there was very little politics in the novel, aside from the proposed Leia/Isolder political marriage. So I don't see how this train of thoughts have anything to do with the novel. In a book like Star By Star, that's a different matter.


You make some interesting points about Padme's vote of no confidence, and certainly I'm not trying to suggest there's no influence from her mother in terms of her personality, nor am I trying to draw an identical comparison between Anakin and Leia - I think it's very much a case of similar personalities molded by distinctly different upbringings and value systems.

You're also right that the link to the novel is tenuous and I don't want to derail the conversation entirely, but I do feel it's still relevant since one of the chief complaints against the novel seems to be turning Leia into a rather wishy-washy Harlequin Romance Heroine stereotype, so establishing what exactly her character is bears some relevance.

I do wish, however, that there'd been more discussion on Leia's views on a ruling monarchy. While royalty herself, Alderaan was still a democracy that elected political leaders while Hapes functions in an autocratic fashion. I was always under the impression that her opposition to the Empire was not simply due to the fact it committed attrocities, but also because she felt an Empire was an unjust system of government (if only because there were no safeguards such attrocities, if an Emperor chose to commit them). Being confronted with an ostensibly peaceful and constructive autocracy might have been an opportunity to delve into her political views on the subject, especially in terms of her own title.

 

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RK_Striker_JK_5  20169 posts
Registered: Jul '03
49046_Tenel Ka (81109)
Date Posted: 7/4 4:42pm Subject: 181st Imperial Discussion Group: The Courtship of Princess Leia!
I loved Isolder in the book. Dashing, daring, a man of morals raised in a pit of vipers. It would've been interesting to see him and Leia ending up together.

Luke and Teneniel together... well, Tenel Ka would've still been around. Simply Luke's kid and no J/TK... so, yeah. Good thing he ended up with... someone else. wink

I dunno. I think Gethzerion would've given Palps a run for his money, at least. I've never believed he was the most powerful Dark Sider of all time. Besides, his feelings for her and mad passion would've clouded his judgment and stymied his attacks.

"I can't fight you! I... I love you! You have as many wrinkles as I do, and lovely yellow eyes-like me!"

Of course, either Palps or Gethzerion could be saying that... laugh

 

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Arawn_Fenn  10409 posts
Registered: Jul '04
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Date Posted: 7/4 5:01pm Subject: 181st Imperial Discussion Group: The Courtship of Princess Leia!
RK_Striker_JK_5 posted:
I loved Isolder in the book. Dashing, daring, a man of morals raised in a pit of vipers.


In Children of Dune his character was called Farad'n Corrino. Or Harq al-Ada if you like.

 

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RK_Striker_JK_5  20169 posts
Registered: Jul '03
49046_Tenel Ka (81109)
Date Posted: 7/4 5:10pm Subject: 181st Imperial Discussion Group: The Courtship of Princess Leia!
Arawn_Fenn posted:
RK_Striker_JK_5 posted:
I loved Isolder in the book. Dashing, daring, a man of morals raised in a pit of vipers.


In Children of Dune his character was called Farad'n Corrino. Or Harq al-Ada if you like.


Hmm, never read any Dune novels. Although it is kinda a common archetype-the one noble, the white sheep of the family.

 

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Xicer  788 posts
Registered: Aug '08
48419_Imperial Sentinel (51209)
Date Posted: 7/4 5:58pm Subject: 181st Imperial Discussion Group: The Courtship of Princess Leia!
Huh, now that I think about it Farad'n does share a lot of similarities with Isolder, except Farad'n ended up living a pretty good life as Harq al-Ada after Leto's rise. After Jacen's rise, Isolder didn't exactly meet a very good end.

Heh, now I'm surprised that later on T'aa Chume never went after the Solo twins like Wensicia did with Leto and Ghanima. It certainly would've fit Bantam's theme of kidnapping the Solo children.

 

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DarthIktomi  1380 posts
Registered: May '09
19073_Luke and Mara Family
Date Posted: 7/5 9:16am Subject: 181st Imperial Discussion Group: The Courtship of Princess Leia! - Date Edited: 7/5 11:00am (1 edits total) Edited By: Havac
beccatoria:
I was thinking in terms of background, not personality. In personality, yes, Leia is more like her father and Luke's more like his mother. Look at how Leia was all GTKO in The Truce at Bakura, while Luke's pretty much convinced everyone's good.

I told you.

 

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Charlemagne19  26817 posts
Registered: Jul '00
6408_Jedi Outcast
Date Posted: 7/5 1:58pm Subject: 181st Imperial Discussion Group: The Courtship of Princess Leia!
The Courtship of Princess Leia

STAR WARS AMAZONS!

Evil Witches!

The Marriage of Han Solo and Princess Leia!

Prince Fabio!

King Han of Solo!

The Courtship of Princess Leia is a tremendously fun book that I salute for being extremely difficult to take seriously. This is one of those qualities that I miss about Bantam and Marvel comics, is that the new Star Wars books are such a tedious bore in their attempts to portray themselves as a consistent and coherent universe. Linkara from Atop the Fourth Wall comic book reviews had a good comment that there was a time when you could have Superman fight twin clones of Hitler and it would be awesome. Instead, we've got stuff that I can't really write about on this page, which is so awful.

However, I do have some complaints. I should warn you, this review is going to touch on some uncomfortable topics but I'll try and keep it clean.

*WARNING - PG POST AHEAD FOR A FREUDIAN INTERPRETATION*

1. The Original Cover



Amusingly, I do remember buying this book and my biggest reaction was "I've seen much more of Carrie Fisher thanks to Return of the Jedi but I've got to admit that I'm a trifle embarrassed by the fact that the entire book cover seems designed to draw attention to our heroine's neckline."

The second cover with Leia in her ROTJ commando outfit was much better.

2. The Mixed Sexism Messages

The Amazons have been a male fantasy since the Ancient Greeks. If anyone doubts what the purpose behind the Amazons was from the very beginning, take note that they were always about the Queen of the Amazons falling into the arms of a Greek male hero whenever we see them mentioned in the stories. Some somewhat randier possibilities have been explored with polyamorous exploits across various adaptations across the whole of human history. However, even Wonder Woman started with Steve Trevor landing on the island and meeting the beautiful Princess Diana.

The dischordant thing about Star Wars is the fact that the book is Post-Feminism, so the entire thing touches on the psycho-sexual themes of female empowerment and males' stimulated response to it but doesn't exactly do much with it. The hero usually exists either to tame one of the local women or avail themselves to sexually forward females---which was a shocking breach of gender roles until very recently but is acceptable due to the Amazon's 'unnatural' assumption of masculine attributes including being the seducer.

In this case, we have two Amazon societies with the Danthomir Witches and the Hapan Star Cluster.

Here, our only sexually available male hero is Luke Skywalker. Luke Skywalker is treated as strikingly celibate throughout this entire storyline. This is one of a few books which attempts to have Luke be a Chaste Hero (see TV tropes). The other storyline is Crystal Star with Han Solo commenting during both of these stories that he should make an effort to become sexually active. Han Solo, as the archetypal rogue and more traditional masculine hero as compared to the Galahad comparison of Luke Skywalker, is also neutered during the storyline from partaking in the Amazon's role of sexually aggressive women by being the ardent pursuer of Princess Leia.

Prince Isolder has an interesting name that is obviously based on Isolde from Tristan and Isolde. He's a peculiar figure in Star Wars fiction because he's a feminized male in a story with masculinized women. However, while the masculinized women retain their female sexual desirability, Isolder simultaneously is allowed to keep his macho dignity. Isolder is not sissified but treated as an object of female sexual desirability, as expressed by Leia and even Mon Mothma's expressions of desire for him. Yet, he is fundamentally the Princess. The figure that exists to be won by slaying Dragons and a mighty warrior. Isolder is a reverse image of Leia really in that he's a capable Prince (he's a former pirate) but he's still defined by his station and his role to be the love interest.

For a story so utterly soaked in classic mythological sex tropes, I don't think any actual sex occurs in the story either implied or otherwise. A failed seduction occurs with the Hapan Queen Mother's older woman feminine wiles failing to win over Luke Skywalker the Chaste Night but the most shocking thing is Han admitting that he and Leia have already had sex.

Really, if you're going to create such a story charged with sexuality, you should probably do better than treat the entire thing as the giant tease that it is.

3. Evil Witches

L. Frank Baum is largely responsible for our modern 20th century conception of the Evil Witch. A well loved children's author with a serious problem with Native Americans (Lakota Indians to be precise), he created The Wizard of Oz that forms the basis for much of American modern mythology. Evil Witches have always existed in mythology but they've actually only recently been distinguishable from magic using women. There has always been a sharp divide between the myth of the Ogress with a woman capable of using sorcery. The Catholic Church ultimately had something to do with mixing it up a bit but even before then, there were a variety of creatures responsible for various type of feminine dangers.

The Ogress is the typical evil fairy who is a hideous (usually old) female spirit. Baba Yaga is the most famous of these hostile female entities. The Finnish Louhi occupies a role in society similiar to Baba Yaga, though she is also a somewhat nurturing figure as she possesses three beautiful daughters that heroes are capable of rescuing the evil hag's clutches. The Ogress is rarely used in modern cinema and the Wicked Witch of the West is one of the last few uses of it in major cinema. This is largely due to the media's hatred of acknowleging that people grow old.

It's noteworthy that there's a strong vibe of "Beauty=Goodness" in this work. Ta Chume, being the major subversion of this work but otherwise standing out in a sea of sexy female flesh. The Nightsisters are Hags and Ogresses to the man. By delving deep into the Dark of the Force, they sacrifice their beauty for power. There's a small element of repulsion that our male readers are supposed to pick up on that the Nightsisters are going to mate with their Imperial prisoners in the same manner as the other Singing Mountain Witches but are hideously diseased leper women versus the beautiful athletic amazons.

A certain level of implied consent is expected to exist in the bondage (and we mean that in both the literal and sexual meaning of the word) that the males of the Singing Mountain Witches live under. Miss Djo even comments that males are not help in true slavery, subject to rape, but instead merely live in a peculiar second-class citizen state where they are subject to welcome amorous intentions of their female captors or they are traded. The Nightsisters keep their men in no such conditions and instead use them as brood mares with their diseased and ravaged bodies.

Yeah, you could write a book on this craziness.

There's a lot to be aghast at in this work.

Ultimately, I don't think the work should be taken nearly so serious as that. The work is a proper Pulp Adventure tale that has been stripped of its mainstream sexual elements so everyone is on their good behavior and it only hints at titilation rather than actually goes as far as it could have. Certainly, Luke Skywalker could have found himself a small to extremely large harem on Danthomir that would have contributed back to the restoration of the Jedi but he remains sexually reserved the entire time.

Note this is different from sexually impotent. Sexually reserved is something that has long been a feature in male stories. Sexually impotent is in an individual who is fundamentally incapable of performance and considered less than a man. As subject to ridicule as it may be, the scene with Doctor Strangelove or How I learned to quit worrying and love the bomb's General Jack Ripper is clear. He is capable of functioning but chooses to mate only when he feels like doing so, in full control of himself but still sexually virile.

Bruce Lee gave a much more serious discussion of this and commented on it in his philosophy treatise on Kung Fu while demonstrating it in Enter the Dragon where his hero is still sexually desirable to women but chooses to forego prostitutes and channel his energy into personal strength/integrity. Thus not demeaning himself or become weaker.

Because Luke Skywalker doesn't do anything sleazy, it comes off as a perfectly normal Star Wars book but it is all lurking back in the basis of our consciousness.

On a final note, I actually liked Warlord Zsinj.

 

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Liliedhe  493 posts
Registered: Feb '09
14356_Depa Billaba
Date Posted: 7/5 2:58pm Subject: 181st Imperial Discussion Group: The Courtship of Princess Leia!
I basically agree with your exploration of the Freudian themes of this story - just one little addition^^: I also didn't find Warlord Zsinj to be so especially ridiculous. Certainly not more than the Warlords Daala executes in Darksaber.

 

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beccatoria  1923 posts
Title: Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group
Registered: Dec '06
43404_Luke & Leia
Date Posted: 7/6 5:20am Subject: 181st Imperial Discussion Group: The Courtship of Princess Leia!
Okay! Time to play a bit of catch up.

Ally - the first thing that strikes me about your post is that we can perhaps trace some of Han's resentment to him and Leia not getting a normal life to the NR rulers in this novel. Perhaps, to my shame, my inability to really look at this novel with the seriousness I usually try to give, means I missed that. I did think that a more complex examination of Leia's motives in agreeing to an arranged, political marriage would make interesting reading, but I hadn't considered that in the context of Han's character we might actually be able to tie it in retrospectively to his feelings in TTT, etc. It also fits well with his underlying resentment towards the Jedi after Anakin's death - not something he wants to act on; something he subconsciously represses, but still there. A deep feeling that means he can never quite trust them the way he used to, no matter how embroiled he is in the organisation (Jedi or NR).

I also agree with what you're saying about Leia never really firmly delineating her personal and professional lives. But again that's something that I think this novel would have been improved by discussing, instead of conflating a political marriage with a whirlwind romance in the face of her previous characterisation?

I'm fairly certain that yes, Dave Wolverton gender-bent everything deliberately, but as Charlie notes below, that's not really all that unusual in fiction. In many ways Amazons aren't really that subversive but more a case of titilating subversion in an afternoon fantasy?

I think that explaining that Palpatine feared ALL the Nightsisters rather than simply Gethzerion is a better way of explaining Leia's comments than many but I still have a problem with it. I honestly don't think that Palpatine WOULD fear them. I mean, there was only ever him and his current apprentice, and he didn't fear 10,000 Jedi. With the entire might of the Empire behind him, not to mention, during later years, his own dark side force-users like his Hands, etc., the Nightsisters would not have proved a significant challenge to him. They were technologically comparatively primitive and confined to a single planet. He could have just firebombed it from orbit and solved his problem. I really wasn't a fan of that particular line from Leia; it really felt like Wolverton was trying to inflate Gethzerion's importance beyond sustainable levels and thus I couldn't take it seriously.

Ally posted:
It was almost as if the Force itself healed Luke. Was this a hint of "the Force having a will"?


That's how I took it? I mean, essentially whenever Luke does anything with the Force he's acting as an extension of his will, so when he's healing himself it's always for that reason, but in this instance, the Force was simply more...pro-active in its role?

Ally posted:
Question - why did you decide to make Hero's Trial the next book to discuss. If we were to get into the NJO, I would think we'd start at the beginning - Vector Prime?


Well, the remit of the 181st is to look at books that don't independently get that much discussion on the boards. The more overlooked EU. Obviously that's a continuum, and we're discussing more well-known and less-known things and also, should this carry on for long enough we'll run out of novels that aren't more recent/discussed. As a result, I'm not really focusing in on the NJO/LOTF-era that much. But of the NJO books, the Agents of Chaos duology don't get that much attention, and were put forward as a suggestion a few times. Vector Prime, on the other hand, gets quite a lot of face-time on the boards in only because of Chewie's death. And the fact we all know that the entire Vong War was the Mayor of Sernpidal's grand scheme... wink

Charlie - I have to say I'm amused by and also really understand your analogy with regards to Superman fighting a pair of Hitler clones. I don't really have a strong rebuttal of that either since Star Wars was, well, based on Flash Gordon. At the same time, it's been a while since the novels were really written like that, and I also firmly believe that a pulpy ethos is no excuse for a poorly told tale (see the Daley Solo novels for good pulp), so....I'm inclined to say that I'm the kind of person who, while entertained by the idea of Superman fighting twin Hitlers, would probably not enjoy actually reading through an entire comic about that.

Though DUDE yes that cover. I actually didn't get around to reading this novel until I'd read all the other Bantam novels because I was embarassed by that cover and just...thought I'd never be comfortable being seen in public with it... o_O

I do like your comments on Isolder. I hadn't considered it so much in that light, but you're right, despite Wolverton's real failure to do anything interesting with the gender politics in terms of the women, in Isolder he managed to create a man both feminised but not "camp". The only other example of such a character in modern media that I can think of is probably Lee Adama from the remake of Battlestar Galactica, when they made him the feminised counterpart to Starbuck's masculinised (gender-swapped) female hot-shot. Unfortunately (or entertainingly), having put themselves in that position it's fairly obvious the show didn't know what to do with him and flip-flopped between making him "emo" (since the two feminised male stereotypes are "emo" or "camp", something that Isolder interestingly avoids entirely) or trying very hard to put him back into the alpha male, aggressive role which didn't really work either since Starbuck showed him up at every turn.

So yes, Isolder is definitely one of the more interesting upshots of the novel.

Charlie posted:
Because Luke Skywalker doesn't do anything sleazy, it comes off as a perfectly normal Star Wars book but it is all lurking back in the basis of our consciousness.


This I agree with. Although I suppose I'm less forgiving than you. I do feel that yes, the fact it's written in very PG tones means that the novel itself avoids some of the more horrifying pitfalls it might otherwise fall to (in particular, I think your comparison of the physical attractiveness of the various groups and how that's almost the defining factor in whether or not it's horrifying bondage or *nudge nudge wink wink* fantasy for the men involved, with no real consideration either of how a man would genuinely feel in sexual slavery, or how this reflects some rather unpleasant realworld views on women, is perceptive and interesting). However, as you say, it's all there and not very deep under the surface either.

Which means that attempting to view this novel as anything OTHER than a pulp adventure novel on the surface goes to some rather eyebrown raising ORLY? places fairly swiftly.

It's not that this novel lacks layers, it's just that I'm not sure the layers say very nice things about it?

 

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