Author Topic: Should Karen Traviss Write A Mandalorian War Novel?
Robimus  3654 posts
Registered: Jul '07
13691_HK-47
Date Posted: 7/2 10:23pm Subject: Should Karen Traviss Write A Mandalorian War Novel?
Short version: No. She should be off this franchise entirely. Her work is just damaging it.

This is a fairly bold statement. How many of her Star Wars novels have you read?

Long version: Having read through a couple of her novels, I get the impression she just does not get the world. At all. And instead of doing what anyaspiring writer (and, indeed, a Journalist) should do - research the matter - she prefers to force her own views onto the universe of George Lucas. Needless to say, this just does not work out.

I've had this discussion many a time. Karen doesn't force her views through Obi-Wan or Mace Windu, she does voice these views through characters whom often have no love for the Jedi in the form of original characters. It can get a little much at times but I've never found it all that overpowering.

There must have been people in the galaxy that didn't like the Jedi, and even the Jedi themselves were divided over the Clone Wars.


Her glaring disinterest in a shared universe, going so far as to publically state her ignoring or retconning most of it except the parts she likes, which she then rewrites so they are “more logical” to her.

Karen has in no way retconned "most of it".

Her writing is not in any way connected to what has been established, and what is is distorted to preach what she wants to say. Research? Retcon! Yes, she actually says so in an interview, that she loves to retcon. Never mind that this shows only her unprofessional attitude towards her work.

Is it unprofessional? And of course her writing is connected to what has been established, its just we don't have a lot this Mandalorian generation in print to tie to. There was the Marvel stuff(Which I think Order 66 tied to very well) and the History of the Mandalorians article(to which she made some adjustments).


This refers both to the Mandaloreans - they are no shiny heroes, no matter how much she wants them to be, and neither are they invincible - and her treatment of the Jedi. And really every other character, who gets distorted to get her message across (poor Scout).

I just find balance here when compared to other books in the Star Wars Universe in reguards to the Jedi. As to the Mandalorians, they are not portrayed individually as heroes though their culture is held on a pedestal a little bit.

Kal Skirata is a thug and killer, a failed parent and pretty much morally bankrupt except when it comes to the Clones. He latched onto the one good thing he could do in life, helping those Clone children, and makes the most of it.


I don't know where she got her ideas on writing as expressed in her interviews from, but an author should read first. She stated (publically, in an interview on her site) she dislikes to read books. Little wonder her writing is lacking as it is.

I'm sorry you don't like her work but aren't you going a bit too far here? Karen has published 17 novels plus short stories with many more in the works. Just because you don't like her work doesn't mean that she doesn't know her trade. Everyone looks for differnet things in novels, there is no mold that must be followed.

Yes, she tries to introduce character drama to make up for it. But either it ends up retelling Daily Soaps from the 80s

I like her quieter take on story telling. Some Star Wars novels simply take us from one action scene to the next with no development to be seen. Look at the relationship between Darman and Etain, then compare it to Jag and Jaina's. To me the Etain/Darman love story was so much more well handled. It was central to the story in the books, not a single line in one book, then a paragraph in another and a whole page in the next. peace


Also, why is everyone in awe about the Mando in her work? It’s like writing an espionage novel set in the Western world and everybody, without exception, is looking up to Al Quaida as shining examples of humanity. More logical, of course. Less logical is what came out.

As opposed to looking up to the Republic and Palaptine I guess thinking . Of course I never looked up to her Mandalorian characters as you suggest, they are far to flawed to be heroes.

It's just different, thats all. To each their own.

And what does any of this have to do with the thread title. Absolutly nothing tongue

 

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Ulicus  7359 posts
Registered: Jul '05
41990_Duron Qel-Droma
Date Posted: 7/2 10:40pm Subject: Should Karen Traviss Write A Mandalorian War Novel?
I don't mind politics in fantasy.

The "Jacen Blair" soundbites were a bit much, mind you. Though I imagine that wasn't a huge problem for the majority of the American audience. tongue

 

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patchworkz7  3179 posts
Registered: Mar '04
41675_Mandalorian Father and Son
Date Posted: 7/2 10:41pm Subject: Should Karen Traviss Write A Mandalorian War Novel?
Robimus posted:

It's just different, thats all. To each their own.

And what does any of this have to do with the thread title. Absolutly nothing tongue



To be fair; he addresses what he sees as problems that would make him not want what the thread title asks people if they want...so, regardless of how wide-ranging he got, it pretty much is on topic.
Otherwise it's just "yes" or "no" without discussion...although I would be mildly interested in that I don't think Karen's view of the Mandos of the past match her view of the Mandos of the 'present' in that she makes a clear distinction between Imperial Mandalore, which her OC's tend to talk smack about, and Mandalore in decline as a power and instead as a post-Imperial culture in decline and solidifying itself as a distinct culture that allows itself to be spread by the memetic properties of its allure rather than the sword.

If I were still inclined to play at being an English major I'd probably point out an undertone of the British experience of coming to terms with the fall of Empire and the cultural revolution of the British invasion with the years of poverty that followed.

 

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Dawud786  2654 posts
Registered: Dec '06
42320_Luke Skywalker
Date Posted: 7/2 10:48pm Subject: Should Karen Traviss Write A Mandalorian War Novel?
Zorrixor posted:
I'd say the general sentiment has far more to do with people not wanting to infringe the work of the comics than anything to do with Traviss. And at least Uli and Dawud, along with myself, have all said we're looking forward to the Imperial Commando series. I also said in my original post that I actually like her work, I just don't feel an author from a hard sci-fi background in military fiction is what I'd want in the more mythical historic era.

So, this thread is not an "everyone hating on Traviss" thread. If anything, I'd say its more the case of its an "everyone loving on JJM" thread and not wanting anyone to step on his toes. There's ample unexplored territory (i.e. Dark Times) for other authors to focus on, rather than the EU throwing all its got at just one short time period.

If anything, I'd far rather see her do a Great Sith War or Great Hyperspace War novel than two series set during the Mandalorian Wars. Or better yet, the Jedi Civil War, which we currently know next to nothing about other than that Malak "killed" Revan, other than that it's a blank canvass for whichever author gets around to writing about it.

For the major war in the time period, it really is amazing that the main chapter is still untold. At the end of the day, the Mandalorians are the small fries compared to the carnage the Civil War and ensuing Dark Wars caused. But all we know can be summed up in a paragraph.


I just wanted to point out that I said nothing about Imperial Commando. I could, honestly, not really care any less about that particular title. I'm not fond of what Traviss did in LOTF and her general IU and OOU perspective on Jedi and Force-users and thus I don't read her stuff unless it's part of a major series. Mercifully I'm not particularly interested in any of the new Clone Wars novels nor have I had any great love for RC... I liked Hard Contact as a tie-in to the RC game, but I didn't bother reading the other three in the series. I'm not going to sit here and rag on her, because I know there's stuff that fans absolutely love about her material and frankly there's alot about her stuff that really really really grates on my nerves. Particularly as a Jedi fan.

Which is why I suggest that anything she ever did in the Mandalorian Wars period would have to be balanced out by a novel or series of novels establishing the Jedi/Republic perspective on the Mandalorians absolutely directly and in the thick of it. I still don't think that KOTOR is going to get right into the thick of the MW any time soon. Zayne and Co are going to be skirting the edges of the conflict for a while. A series that actually deals directly with Revan and Malak and their crusade and the early cooperation and eventual tensions with the Jedi Council going against these horrifically barbaric Mandalorians would be good. I would say it should be coordinated strongly with JJM of course, as he's kind of THE voice of that era right now what with the KOTOR comics and sourcebook.

 

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blackmyron  2496 posts
Registered: Oct '05
Date Posted: 7/2 10:57pm Subject: Should Karen Traviss Write A Mandalorian War Novel?
Robimus posted:
And what does any of this have to do with the thread title. Absolutly nothing tongue
Pretty much... wink

 

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patchworkz7  3179 posts
Registered: Mar '04
41675_Mandalorian Father and Son
Date Posted: 7/2 11:18pm Subject: Should Karen Traviss Write A Mandalorian War Novel?
Zorrixor posted:
I'd say the general sentiment has far more to do with people not wanting to infringe the work of the comics than anything to do with Traviss.

So, this thread is not an "everyone hating on Traviss" thread. If anything, I'd say its more the case of its an "everyone loving on JJM" thread


FWIW; Traviss loves JJM as well, and the three of us had a lovely lunch a few SDCC's ago. She's pimped the KoToR comic at length on her old NG, and she still enjoys his work and thinks he should be writing novels. I just wanted to add that in case anyone thought that there was any sort of competition between them on the Mandos. She was more than happy to reference Demagol (and, iirc, she might have referenced a few other things in from JJM in O66), so she certainly respects and loves what he's done with the Mandos and KoToR.

 

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blackmyron  2496 posts
Registered: Oct '05
Date Posted: 7/2 11:41pm Subject: Should Karen Traviss Write A Mandalorian War Novel?
I don't even think it's that, Patch - like I said, anyone writing a novel set in the Mandalorian Wars would cause complications for the KOTOR comic until it passes into the Jedi Civil War era.

 

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patchworkz7  3179 posts
Registered: Mar '04
41675_Mandalorian Father and Son
Date Posted: 7/2 11:47pm Subject: Should Karen Traviss Write A Mandalorian War Novel?
blackmyron posted:
I don't even think it's that, Patch - like I said, anyone writing a novel set in the Mandalorian Wars would cause complications for the KOTOR comic until it passes into the Jedi Civil War era.


Oh, yeah, I don't disagree, and if anyone were to write a KoToR era ANYTHING novel, I think it should be JJM. Cracking good writer. Oddly, KT's never even expressed any interest in the era (to be fair, her fans have, obv), so I'm not sure why this is a real discussion, but even I think that JJM should be the one handling that era.

I just didn't want anyone thinking there was some sort of custody battle over KoToR Mandos, eh? ;p

As said, I also think her view of Imperial Mandalorians is a far cry from midlands...err...post-civil war Mandos.

 

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Zorrixor  4304 posts
Registered: Sep '04
42757_Prince Xizor
Date Posted: 7/2 11:50pm Subject: Should Karen Traviss Write A Mandalorian War Novel?
Dawud786 posted:
I just wanted to point out that I said nothing about Imperial Commando.

Ah yes, my bad. I meant blackmyron, your posts were next to each other so I guess I looked at the wrong name.

 

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QuentinGeorge  4759 posts
Registered: Dec '03
48582_Kaan (60609)
Date Posted: 7/2 11:52pm Subject: Should Karen Traviss Write A Mandalorian War Novel?
I support a Traviss/Karpyshyn/Davids collaboration for fun and profit.

 

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blackmyron  2496 posts
Registered: Oct '05
Date Posted: 7/3 12:33am Subject: Should Karen Traviss Write A Mandalorian War Novel?
Wouldn't work without Saxton being on board as well.

 

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DarthIktomi  1380 posts
Registered: May '09
19073_Luke and Mara Family
Date Posted: 7/3 12:50am Subject: Should Karen Traviss Write A Mandalorian War Novel?
Might as well add Wong on board. Basically Saxton with the added hypocritical humor of attacking Trek for its technobabble.

 

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Dirk_Loechel  124 posts
Registered: Jun '09
20050_Ackbar
Date Posted: 7/3 2:17am Subject: Should Karen Traviss Write A Mandalorian War Novel? - Date Edited: 7/3 2:39am (2 edits total) Edited By: Dirk_Loechel
patchworkz7:
Uhhh...all else aside...seriously? And I mean just in general; do you read much outside SW? Ursula le Guin? Octavia Butler? Gene Wolfe? Harlan Ellison? Anybody? (...) I want to stress this is nothing personal, but politics has been in literature and even escapist fantasy for as long as it has been around. I'm rather gobsmacked at the blanket statement.


Did any of those comment of the politics of the day? I would not be aware of that. Cannot speak for Le Guin or Wolfe, and it's been a while since I read Ellison's short stories. But I would not remember them making statements about whatever was in the news when they wrote the books. Nothing's deader than yesterday's news, or something. Don't get me wrong, politics in escapist fiction is fine if it is kept on a more general level; but if the book wants to talk to me about the situation in Basra in 2005, or about Tony Blair's internal politics, it shoots itself in the knee, since this will be the past and cease to be interesting probably before the book makes it to the printers.

That's what I was getting at. If writing a novel, you need to take into account it's long production/product cycle. You can comment whatever the PM did wrong yesterday in a newspaper, since it is printed daily, and will likely still be relevant when it hits the street. You better should not in a book, lest you want to have your views invalidated. With daily politics, that is very likely after about a year.

That's where the 'cardinal sin' is. You shoot your own fiction with this (with some, very few, exceptions to truely iconic events, which can make good backdrop for SciFi/Fantasy writing). Not a good thing to do by any means.

Robinus:
I've had this discussion many a time. Karen doesn't force her views through Obi-Wan or Mace Windu, she does voice these views through characters whom often have no love for the Jedi in the form of original characters. It can get a little much at times but I've never found it all that overpowering.

There must have been people in the galaxy that didn't like the Jedi, and even the Jedi themselves were divided over the Clone Wars.


Similarily, there must be people who like the Jedi. People who appreciate them for what they are accoding to the vision of the man who invented them. And this vision did not include a couple of things Traviss claims; among those being living off the taxpayer's money ("I can't help thinking of the Jedi as self-serving unelected elitist spoon-benders making whoopee on Republic taxpayers' credits." Now where did she get that from?) or stealing force-sensitive babies to bolster their numbers. Where are those in her books, I wonder?

And don't tell me she wasn't writing like this because of her own, real-world, political issues. She said so herself: "Fuelled by class outrage and righteous loathing for those elitist, spoon-bending, lightsaber-wielding, funded-by-the-taxpayer Jedi bastards, I wrote from the gut". Links to the interviews I quote are on her own page.

Oh, and she does force her views through established characters, too. Like Yoda, Mace, or Obi-Wan and the rape undertones towards Ventress.

Robinus:

Karen has in no way retconned "most of it".

She said so herself:"my whole Mandalorian culture and language strand was a result of having to fix something that came from the movies but didn't work so well in a book."

She also retconned the clones a lot according to what she imagines clones to be like in her own original fiction ("Outside the Lucas universe, I’d have done my hard SF thing and shown what a disaster cloning was — high failure rates, developmental difficulties and all the problems inherent in cloning and raising a human army.") - the premature aging, for instance, is never mentioned int he clone was cartoons, or the movies, just in her books. Quotes are again taken from the interviews linked to on her own homepage. Yes, in the interview, she says she was not allowed to do this. She did anyway. Does that qualify her for writing in a shared universe?

Robinus
I'm sorry you don't like her work but aren't you going a bit too far here? Karen has published 17 novels plus short stories with many more in the works. Just because you don't like her work doesn't mean that she doesn't know her trade. Everyone looks for differnet things in novels, there is no mold that must be followed.

Production volume does not equal product quality. You can mass-produce flawed products as well as quality products. Sure, everyone looks for different things in books, but this comment is ultimatly about what I look for, so I do not feel obliged to take into account what everyone may or may not want.

Robinus
I like her quieter take on story telling. Some Star Wars novels simply take us from one action scene to the next with no development to be seen. Look at the relationship between Darman and Etain, then compare it to Jag and Jaina's. To me the Etain/Darman love story was so much more well handled. It was central to the story in the books, not a single line in one book, then a paragraph in another and a whole page in the next.

It was central to the story, yes, as in "humbling" Etain and making her see the light of the Mando'ade. It was a vessel for that, nothing else.

patchworkz7
Mandalore in decline as a power and instead as a post-Imperial culture in decline and solidifying itself as a distinct culture that allows itself to be spread by the memetic properties of its allure rather than the sword.

Which allure? The one she makes up? Mandaloreans being wonderful parents despite throwing their kids into war at the age of 8? Mandaloreans being a fantasy version of a futurist fascist society? And not to forget the innate racism and xenophobia of mandalorean culture. It's quite a stretch to claim this is considered the finest culture in the galaxy.

patchworkz7
If I were still inclined to play at being an English major I'd probably point out an undertone of the British experience of coming to terms with the fall of Empire and the cultural revolution of the British invasion with the years of poverty that followed.

I agree on her Mando culture playing at the past, but disagree on the time period. I will go into greater detail when I finally finish my review of Order 66.

 

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patchworkz7  3179 posts
Registered: Mar '04
41675_Mandalorian Father and Son
Date Posted: 7/3 2:37am Subject: Should Karen Traviss Write A Mandalorian War Novel?
Dirk_Loechel posted:
patchworkz7:
Uhhh...all else aside...seriously? And I mean just in general; do you read much outside SW? Ursula le Guin? Octavia Butler? Gene Wolfe? Harlan Ellison? Anybody? (...) I want to stress this is nothing personal, but politics has been in literature and even escapist fantasy for as long as it has been around. I'm rather gobsmacked at the blanket statement.

Did any of those comment of the politics of the day? I would not be aware of that. Cannot speak for Le Guin or Wolfe, and it's been a while since I read Ellison's short stories. But I would not remember them making statements about whatever was in the news when they wrote the books. Nothing's deader than yesterday's news, or something. Don't get me wrong, politics in escapist fition is fine if it is kept on a more general level; but if the book wantss to talk to me about the situation in Basra in 2005, or about Tony Blair's internal politics, it shoots itself in the knee, since this will be the past and cease to be interesting probably before the book makes it to the printers.

That's what I was getting at. If writing a novel, you neet to take into account it's long production/product cycle. You can comment whatever Blair did wrong in a newspaper, since it is printed daily, and will very likely be relevant when it hits the street. You better should not in a book, lest you want to have your views invalidated. With daily politics, that is very likely after about a year.

That's where the 'cardinal sin' is. You shoot your own fiction with this (with some, very few, exceptions to truely iconic events, which can make good backdrop for SciFi/Fantasy writing).



Ellison was pretty much nothing but "the politics of the day", as was Le Guinn and to a lesser extent Wolfe. That's not to mention plenty other fantasy writers going all the way back to Tolkien (loads of papers have been written on his supposed politics, sometimes contradictory) and that's not to mention people who try to shoe-horn politics into THE WIZARD OF OZ (the usual one is the gold vs silver standard).

I don't really understand how a view can be invalidated by the production cycle, as fantasy as commentary on history is rather quite common (which is one reason we had scores of alt-history books, and that's just the tip of the iceberg). Blair's legacy lives on in his party which inherited his policies, in the same way that neo-conservatism wars with the more center elements of our Republican party. Also, it's meaningless to the people who didn't catch it, and in truth it's hardly something that hijacks the narrative, imo. An epigraph that echos something Blair said and Jacen echoing the quote about sensing the hand of history are small things in the grand scheme of things (and GL has his own moments of this with things like the "with or against" speech and several other moments that clearly echo what was happening at the time).

History continues to be relevant, so commentary on someone creating a watchdog culture where people turn on their neighbors and and become nationalistic could easily refer to something that is happening today or something that happened in many countries in the past, and megalomania in leaders is hardly anything new.

I'm afraid I just don't see where it's a "cardinal sin" to make commentary on society and politics in a narrative, and Jacen was obviously far more than a Blair stand-in (since I don't remember Blair manning up and flying the front lines...), so it becomes a small touch and nothing more. Considering how many authors fill their works with their politics, religion, and personal beliefs, I just have to wonder where you draw the line to where it becomes a "cardinal sin" that invalidates a book, and I include all books in that, not just SW books or Karen's books. At best it becomes a game of; "Well, I noticed it and didn't like it...", which is fair enough, but if the mere mention of anything remotely political ruins a book for you, then I honestly wonder how many books or writers that leaves you with.

 

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CadderlySoaring  121 posts
Registered: Jul '08
39851_Obi-Wan
Date Posted: 7/3 2:44am Subject: Should Karen Traviss Write A Mandalorian War Novel?
In reply to the topic title,

No, Karen Traviss shouldn't write a Mandalorian War Novel. Karen is the worse (and biased) author to enter the Star Wars Expanded Universe since Kevin J. Anderson. My opinion only.

 

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