Author Topic: Should Karen Traviss Write A Mandalorian War Novel?
QuentinGeorge  4763 posts
Registered: Dec '03
48582_Kaan (60609)
Date Posted: 7/3 8:44pm Subject: Should Karen Traviss Write A Mandalorian War Novel?
Adjustments that involved removing fallibility and ambiguity from any Mandalorian character.

So Alpha's no longer delusional and insane, he's just generic Traviss Mando #3456 who was fakin' it.

 

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_Catherine_  1038 posts
Registered: Jun '07
23521_Handmaiden
Date Posted: 7/3 9:00pm Subject: Should Karen Traviss Write A Mandalorian War Novel?
DarthUr posted:
And this is why I see Traviss' handling of Mandalorians as a constant unending process of Mary Sue-ification. Anything that other writers insert into the Mandalorians that make them less than perfect -- the fact that, for instance, they were mistaken about something once in their lives, that they were vulnerable to the same kind of personality-cult religious manipulation that basically all cultures have been at some point in time -- has to be retconned away.

The Mandalorians are this kind of ideal for Traviss, the ultimate goodhearted badass pragmatists who basically don't make mistakes, are morally correct about everything and admired by everyone.

And I just find that really annoying. It's especially annoying because it makes her Mando characters *all the same*.

Spar as a deluded madman whose delusions nevertheless push him to heroic heights and reignite the Mando culture -- that was pretty awesome. That's a very interesting character arc that doesn't have a clear parallel in current SW canon. The implications having to do with religion and legitimacy and historical vs. spiritual truth and the nature of mental illness and identity -- it was chock full of potential. Abel is very good at writing hooks like that. That was *really cool*.

Compare it to what we've got now. More pragmatic Mando politics. More smartass Mandos who come up with grand plans that work out perfectly. Actively *mocking* Abel's article and the much-more-interesting culturally-atavistic-madman version of Spar with Spar's sarcastic jokes about "voices in his head".

It seems like nothing can ever happen on Mandalore except canny political manipulators doing the difficult-yet-pragmatically-correct thing to preserve Mando culture and cracking black-humor jokes about killing people while doing it.

Seriously, I cannot express how disappointing and annoying it is to have the charismatic genius Spar was presented as turn out to be JUST ANOTHER MANDALORIAN who has the exact same character voice and motivations as EVERY OTHER MANDALORIAN.

 

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Havac  14311 posts
Title: Lit Mod of War
Registered: Sep '05
23735_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 7/3 9:23pm Subject: Should Karen Traviss Write A Mandalorian War Novel?
That's the problem we've seen with the latest "improving" retcons from Traviss, Karpyshyn, and others of the same school. Replacing unique, interesting, thought-provoking, original characterizations and scenarios with "better" "more interesting" or "more realistic" thoroughly genericized versions indistinguishable from every other instance. Spar as an instance of a mad clone with identity issues who becomes a charismatic leader? Boring. Silly. Let's take away every individual characteristic the source originating him gave him, let's take away his whole story hook, and just make him another clone who wanted to get out of the Kamino/Republic military/industrial complex of abuse and then went off to be a Mandalorian bounty hunter. Why even include him if all you're going to do is say "Every single thing about him was wrong, he never did any of that stuff, and also he's much more boring than you were led to believe. But here he is sitting around and . . . being Sull 2.0"?

 

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patchworkz7  3187 posts
Registered: Mar '04
41675_Mandalorian Father and Son
Date Posted: 7/3 9:33pm Subject: Should Karen Traviss Write A Mandalorian War Novel?
Dirk_Loechel posted:
patchworkz7 posted:
I think we just disagree on this at a basic level, so fair enough, it's not something that bothers me, but I respect that it's an issue that bothers you. Thanks for the discussion.

Yes, it is my personal view after all, doesn't have to be yours. It's not the most grating point I have with her wrting either. You're welcome.


I just want to state that I was referring to the overall issue of politics and fantasy that you raised and not just the point in Traviss' writing. It's an interesting point, and I can see where it'd be a bugbear for someone as I have a similar problem when people slip religion into omniscient narrator voices; third person objective POV should not be going on about how lovely god is, as that's obviously authorial insert, so I can sorta understand your position. Flagging up "politics of the day" vs an overall worldview helped clarify what you were talking about. I hope you didn't take my tone as dismissive; I was simply pointing out a personal difference of taste between us on a macro level of the craft of writing.

 

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DarthIktomi  1380 posts
Registered: May '09
19073_Luke and Mara Family
Date Posted: 7/3 9:41pm Subject: Should Karen Traviss Write A Mandalorian War Novel?
Yeah, it's funny, because the Mandos we see are only motivated by self-interest. They're not heroes. They're not necessarily bad guys either. They're just mercenaries. Good mercenaries, but mercenaries nonetheless.

It's like if you've ever seen the old Westerns. The Pawnee are the good guys and the Sioux are the bad guys. Some time in the 70s, the Sioux did a collective heel face turn and the Pawnee did a collective face heel turn. Since then, the Sioux have been Mary Sueified by anything set in the 19th century West, usually adopting the more traditional Mary Sues like John Dunbar.

 

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CadderlySoaring  121 posts
Registered: Jul '08
39851_Obi-Wan
Date Posted: 7/3 9:55pm Subject: Should Karen Traviss Write A Mandalorian War Novel? - Date Edited: 7/3 9:59pm (3 edits total) Edited By: CadderlySoaring
Havac posted:
That's the problem we've seen with the latest "improving" retcons from Traviss, Karpyshyn, and others of the same school. Replacing unique, interesting, thought-provoking, original characterizations and scenarios with "better" "more interesting" or "more realistic" thoroughly genericized versions indistinguishable from every other instance. Spar as an instance of a mad clone with identity issues who becomes a charismatic leader? Boring. Silly. Let's take away every individual characteristic the source originating him gave him, let's take away his whole story hook, and just make him another clone who wanted to get out of the Kamino/Republic military/industrial complex of abuse and then went off to be a Mandalorian bounty hunter. Why even include him if all you're going to do is say "Every single thing about him was wrong, he never did any of that stuff, and also he's much more boring than you were led to believe. But here he is sitting around and . . . being Sull 2.0"?


Havac has basically owned this discussion for me personally. I've been reading EU since Zaun's Heir to the Empire novel was first announced and my main beef centers on "improving" previous established canon by the whims of authors who want to dictate the moral ambiguity of our times.

It's way too easy to say "This is 2009, let's write with those morals" while ignoring the canon from previous authors like Timothy Zaun.

But more appreciation would go towards authors who can keep the belief that I've always held for Star Wars since the late 70s.

That Star Wars is timeless.

Timeless....

I don't want a new author coming in at 2018 and saying which previous works are worth referencing and which should be ignored. Thank you very much.

 

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Robimus  3703 posts
Registered: Jul '07
13691_HK-47
Date Posted: 7/3 10:34pm Subject: Should Karen Traviss Write A Mandalorian War Novel?
Just a general question because I don't know the answer. Has History of the Mandalorians ever appeared beyond the Insider Article?

 

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blackmyron  2522 posts
Registered: Oct '05
Date Posted: 7/3 10:47pm Subject: Should Karen Traviss Write A Mandalorian War Novel?
As far as continuity goes, I can deal with the small stuff. It's the nightmare of the CWAS that keeps me up at night. Well, not really but it does bother me much, much more than anything else.
I've always found the complete destruction of the 'Story of General Grievous' to much more... well, grievous. wink
In general, I've found Traviss' work to be more accomodating than dismissive of other authors. While I can't speak for personal motivations, I doubt Traviss was actively mocking Abel in print like DarthUr seemed to suggest.
As far as Spar, I thought that he's still insane by the NR era.

 

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patchworkz7  3187 posts
Registered: Mar '04
41675_Mandalorian Father and Son
Date Posted: 7/3 11:29pm Subject: Should Karen Traviss Write A Mandalorian War Novel?
Robimus posted:
Just a general question because I don't know the answer. Has History of the Mandalorians ever appeared beyond the Insider Article?


Considering the content was a compilation of material that's a rather broad question. If you're asking whether the retconned aspects were, I believe one of the NEG's had some stuff about the retcon's in it, but I'm actually unsure what came first, the NEG or the article.

 

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CadderlySoaring  121 posts
Registered: Jul '08
39851_Obi-Wan
Date Posted: 7/3 11:30pm Subject: Should Karen Traviss Write A Mandalorian War Novel?
blackmyron posted:
As far as continuity goes, I can deal with the small stuff. It's the nightmare of the CWAS that keeps me up at night. Well, not really but it does bother me much, much more than anything else.
I've always found the complete destruction of the 'Story of General Grievous' to much more... well, grievous. wink
In general, I've found Traviss' work to be more accomodating than dismissive of other authors. While I can't speak for personal motivations, I doubt Traviss was actively mocking Abel in print like DarthUr seemed to suggest.
As far as Spar, I thought that he's still insane by the NR era.


Blacymyron, How has Traviss been more accommodating towards other authors? Her own blog has said how she shouldn't read previous history/fiction of the EU. She focuses on what she desires to pass to readers out the present context of our world/morals.

And since she churns out novels very quickly, Del Rey eats it up.

I'm curious on your thoughts here. I'd like to know how Traviss can be considered more accommodating given her own thoughts on previous fictional canon in the Star Wars universe.

 

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blackmyron  2522 posts
Registered: Oct '05
Date Posted: 7/4 12:05am Subject: Should Karen Traviss Write A Mandalorian War Novel?
CadderlySoaring posted:
Blacymyron, How has Traviss been more accommodating towards other authors? Her own blog has said how she shouldn't read previous history/fiction of the EU. She focuses on what she desires to pass to readers out the present context of our world/morals.
Making references to characters from Children of the Jedi in her last book hardly bears this out, by way of example. Or the strong linkage with the Republic Commando game in the first two RC novels. Or the Dark Forces reference in "Odds". Or numerous other small details that came from other works. One wonders where she gets them from... actually, not really. She derives them from the Holocron and discussion with other authors.

 

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CadderlySoaring  121 posts
Registered: Jul '08
39851_Obi-Wan
Date Posted: 7/4 12:17am Subject: Should Karen Traviss Write A Mandalorian War Novel?
[quote]Making references to characters from Children of the Jedi in her last book hardly bears this out, by way of example. Or the strong linkage with the Republic Commando game in the first two RC novels. Or the Dark Forces reference in "Odds". Or numerous other small details that came from other works. One wonders where she gets them from... actually, not really. She derives them from the Holocron and discussion with other authors.
[/quote]

She writes Republic Commando novels so of course she's going to focus on RC canon. How about the point where she veers off course of established canon for characters such as Jaina Solo, Jacen Solo (aka The New Jedi Order altogether), Boba Fett (Lucas Canon through New Jedi Order EU), Luke (Lucas Canon through New Jedi Order EU), Mara Jade (The New Republic Canon through The New Jedi Order EU) or any other previously established mythology?

This is an author who seld admits to ignoring previous canon because she doesn't "like" reading fiction. She may have overcame her dislike to read Children of the Jedi and Republic Commando but she has ignored the character traits brought up by quite a few EU authors before hand on Jaina, Jacen, Boba Fett, Luke, Leia, Pelly, Mara, etc...

In one single series, she killed Mara, Pelly and turned Jacen into a joke while propping Daala, the Mandos and Fett into near-gods. She's biased. She references only what she likes while ignoring what Star Wars fans have loved the past 20+ years.

 

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Havac  14311 posts
Title: Lit Mod of War
Registered: Sep '05
23735_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 7/4 12:18am Subject: Should Karen Traviss Write A Mandalorian War Novel? - Date Edited: 7/4 12:26am (1 edits total) Edited By: Havac
blackmyron posted:
As far as continuity goes, I can deal with the small stuff. It's the nightmare of the CWAS that keeps me up at night. Well, not really but it does bother me much, much more than anything else.
I've always found the complete destruction of the 'Story of General Grievous' to much more... well, grievous. wink
In general, I've found Traviss' work to be more accomodating than dismissive of other authors. While I can't speak for personal motivations, I doubt Traviss was actively mocking Abel in print like DarthUr seemed to suggest.
As far as Spar, I thought that he's still insane by the NR era.

Well, he was supposed to still be. But because Spar being insane apparently didn't tickle Traviss, Order 66 suggests being crazy was just something he faked. Once. To get out of Kamino. And it wasn't even what actually got him out of Kamino. So while it's possible to ignore the implications, and insist, "Yes, Spar actually was nuts, and his reference about voices and whatnot doesn't mean he wasn't actually insane," Order 66 basically lives in a world wholly separate from The History of the Mandalorians. Spar isn't crazy; he's just a dude who pulled an insanity plea once. And Spar was never Mandalore; he refused to be Mandalore, and just let Shysa lie and say he was Jango's son and use him as a symbol. The Mandalorian Protectors are nonexistent; Spar and Shysa just hang out on Mandalore -- Spar's a bounty hunter and Shysa moans about how terrible it is that the Mandalorians have no leadership and agitates domestically.

Order 66 is pretty much the definition of dismissive and not accommodating. Despite the fact that Mandalore's political situation, or its status as having a Mandalore, has no actual impact on the main characters, Order 66 goes out of its way to basically invalidate every single thing The History of Mandalorians established about . . . the history of the Mandalorians . . . during the Clone Wars. I think the only possible impact it has on the story is the fact that, per the rules for Mando society Traviss made up, if Spar actually were the Mandalore during the Clone Wars, and was fighting for the Separatists, Kal would be a bad Mandalorian for not following Mandalore. But rather than build on that conflict and explore it, or show Kal as flawed, or even politely ignore the issue, the canon is run over roughshod to accommodate The Much Better And More Interesting Story I Would Like To Tell, By Which I Mean It's Much More Boring And Generic But It Makes Things Easier On Me. The "Well, I don't like it so I'll go out of my way to contradict it" attitude is as far from accommodating as it gets.

EDIT: Myron, come on. Simple Holocron-spurred namedrops are not "accommodating" previous canon. They reference the fact that such a thing as a Sepan Civil War exists. They're not extra-special-embracing of canon in a way any other author isn't. She's tied in some things she likes, yes. She's also gone out of her way to throw out things she doesn't like. That's not accommodating; it's picking and choosing and being dismissive of canon as a whole in favor of "accommodating" only what suits specific purposes. It's, you know, the thing that upsets you about Saxton. If that's "accommodating", why, then I can be really "accommodating" of other people's points of view in Lit by editing out all of the posts except the ones I agree with anyway!

 

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DarthIktomi  1380 posts
Registered: May '09
19073_Luke and Mara Family
Date Posted: 7/4 5:55am Subject: Should Karen Traviss Write A Mandalorian War Novel?
blackmyron posted:
Making references to characters from Children of the Jedi in her last book hardly bears this out, by way of example. Or the strong linkage with the Republic Commando game in the first two RC novels. Or the Dark Forces reference in "Odds". Or numerous other small details that came from other works. One wonders where she gets them from... actually, not really. She derives them from the Holocron and discussion with other authors.


I noticed that. Her Ben was really weird in LOTF. He seemed like an angsty loner, totally different than Denning and Allston's Ben. If all you knew is "Ben Skywalker is Luke Skywalker and Mara Jade Skywalker's son. He was mind-wiped by his cousin Jacen Solo after discovering Jacen and Tenel Ka had an illegitimate daughter. Now he is Jacen's apprentice.", and you knew that Jacen was the new Sith Lord, you would really not have much to work with: Ben was nosy when he was 8? But the Sith…Given what we saw of Palpatine and Luke in ROTJ (You will pay the price for your lack of vision!), it's easy to assume that Jacen abuses Ben. And indeed Jacen does torture Ben. Repeatedly. It's easy to see Ben as an angsty loner, therefore, at least within the plot. It's a stereotype, but for Ben it's a stereotype that makes sense.

Tragically, it's diametrically opposed to Ben's characterization.

 

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Drewton  316 posts
Registered: Jan '09
49174_Darth Malak (91109)
Date Posted: 7/4 6:39am Subject: Should Karen Traviss Write A Mandalorian War Novel? - Date Edited: 7/4 6:41am (1 edits total) Edited By: Drewton
Also with Mara Jade's character in Sacrifice. She turned her characters from a Jedi into an assassin again. She acted almost like a Dark Jedi at times.

 

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