Author Topic: Should Karen Traviss Write A Mandalorian War Novel?
Jedi Merkurian  11636 posts
Registered: May '00
6372_Mace Windu
Date Posted: 7/8 6:46am Subject: Should Karen Traviss Write A Mandalorian War Novel?
Callina posted:
In terms of talent, Karen Traviss is one of the better SW authors. She writes well; I have found her books to be exciting and sometimes even moving. But her writing on the Mandalorians makes me crazy. It's a puff piece in novel form. She cuts down the real giants of Star Wars, both good and bad, so that no one will be bigger than her Mandalorians. Her books are filled with little asides that are the literary equivalent of admiring glances. She regales us with incessant homages to the Mandalorians - their fascinating culture, their scariness, their salt-of-the-earth wonderfulness, their sheer awesomeness - and let's not forget their family values. The hero-worship oozes into the story, and leaves whole passages sticky.

You really, really, REALLY should read Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor. Stover's take on the Mandolorians as expressed by Han & Lando will leave you in stitches.

 

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DarthKuriboh  308 posts
Registered: Aug '07
Date Posted: 7/8 10:12am Subject: Should Karen Traviss Write A Mandalorian War Novel? - Date Edited: 7/8 10:44am (1 edits total) Edited By: Lord_Hydronium
Personal attacks are not acceptable.


Karen's the only one who has the interest, talent and knowledge to write Mandos properly. Please, bring on whole series involving Mandos. SHE makes them interesting.

 

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GoA  335 posts
Registered: Dec '07
41206_Anakin Skywalker
Date Posted: 7/8 10:33am Subject: Should Karen Traviss Write A Mandalorian War Novel? - Date Edited: 7/8 10:45am (1 edits total) Edited By: Lord_Hydronium
DarthKuriboh posted:
It's gone.

Karen's the only one who has the interest, talent and knowledge to write Mandos properly. Please, bring on whole series involving Mandos. SHE makes them interesting.


Was the personal attack on SergeantDante necessary? I'm pretty sure he didn't make that quote. If you disagree with his point of view, how about offer proof that he's wrong, rather than just miss-quote him and make a generic statement.

 

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Ulicus  7359 posts
Registered: Jul '05
41990_Duron Qel-Droma
Date Posted: 7/8 11:40am Subject: Should Karen Traviss Write A Mandalorian War Novel? - Date Edited: 7/8 11:52am (5 edits total) Edited By: Ulicus
Dawud786 posted:

All of which are obviously non-canon even in the games. The man is Mandalore in the next game

At the behest of Revan (this is still implicit even with the dialog that outright states it having been cut), for the purpose of battling against the True Sith when/if they show up.

Not Revan's best idea, granted.

Not sure where you get off on saying dialog isn't canon, though. Maybe Candy was talking smack... but what he said was canon. End of story.

Dawud786 posted:

and furthermore... he dark side aligned in both games.

More accurately, he stays the same alignment in both games. His shift away from the "rape and pillage" mindset began long before Revan came on the scene -- he was likely far futher down the scale at one point. All that happens over the course of KotOR I is that he finally *accepts* that he's a different Mandalorian to the one he was in the Mandalorian Wars.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think Canderous ever became a fluffy paragon of virtue... or even a "nice man", but he's not your typical "kill for fun and honour alone" Mandalorian (any more) and he's likely a far nobler Mandalore than MtU.

Put simply, the Mandalorian Clans - whilst he's in charge - aren't going to be comitting genocide any time soon. (And they wouldn't if they could)

Heh. One could argue that it's Canderous' "mellower" influence that causes the Mandalorians to "die a death that will last a thousand years".

The core of what it means to be a Mandalorian *WAS* "destroy and butcher for kicks while calling it honour", after all, so, when you take that away, all you're left with are shells. tongue

(Though my favourite interpretation is still shell of their armour = clonetrooper armour and shell of a man = Jangoclones)

 

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yoda4982  1952 posts
Registered: Jul '02
42321_Mandalore the Ultimate
Date Posted: 7/8 4:27pm Subject: Should Karen Traviss Write A Mandalorian War Novel?
I personally like KT's view of the Mando's, for a number of reasons

Generally we want to look at them as nothing more than Robots with cool armor, no emotion. But they are humans.

I don't feel she down plays the killer, murderer aspect of them, just shows who they are besides being just mercs.

Now, as one could say that Jedi are Good, Mandos are evil, i think its just as easy to flip it around, as Obi-Wan says "From a certain point of view". I would like more detail as to the hatred between the Mandos and the Jedi form, how the Mandos become very distrusting of Force users and the reasons for the Mando wars. I think She could do a good job with, now in Lucas's world the view is Jedi=Good, everything else=bad.

But i would like to see a series were there are no sides taken, Good and Evil are left to the reader to decide and point of views are established. I've always felt the Mando's are fully aware of the Havoc they unleash, they know they are murderers, they are like Spartans at one point, warriors first. But from their perspective the Jedi are evil, as from the Jedi perspective the Mando's are evil.

Let KT write from the MAndo perspective, let someone else write the Republic perspective and Sith Perspective.

 

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MercenaryAce  2804 posts
Registered: Aug '05
8117_Y-Wing Pilot
Date Posted: 7/9 11:10am Subject: Should Karen Traviss Write A Mandalorian War Novel?
DarthKuriboh posted:
Personal attacks are not acceptable.


Karen's the only one who has the interest, talent and knowledge to write Mandos properly. Please, bring on whole series involving Mandos. SHE makes them interesting.

I disagree. I think Abel G. Peña created a much more interesting and nuanced version of the Mandolorians.

 

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Dougie_Five  73 posts
Registered: Aug '03
8140_Yoda
Date Posted: 7/9 12:40pm Subject: Should Karen Traviss Write A Mandalorian War Novel? - Date Edited: 7/9 12:41pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Dougie_Five
yoda4982 posted:
Let KT write from the MAndo perspective, let someone else write the Republic perspective and Sith Perspective.


Problem is, KT's novels feel like they were written from the Mando perspective quite literally, as in a Mandalorian *literally* sat down and wrote some fiction; right down to the dumbed-down mischaracterisations of Jedi characters almost to the point of parody and farce. I'm all for novels where the point-of-view is something other than the traditional good-guy perspective, but the authors of such novels need to do it without ruining the immersion by moving the bias outside of the thoughts of the protagonists and into the behaviour and actions of the other characters.

I want to read a novel where I can believe the dialogue and the behaviour of the characters would be identical if someone else wrote about the same story from the Republic/Jedi p.o.v., instead of wanting to shout at the page because of all the straw men the author has made out of established characters and the rubbish that comes out of their mouths. Until Traviss can pull this off she does not deserve such a responsibility.

 

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Robimus  3703 posts
Registered: Jul '07
13691_HK-47
Date Posted: 7/9 12:52pm Subject: Should Karen Traviss Write A Mandalorian War Novel?
MercenaryAce posted:
DarthKuriboh posted:
Personal attacks are not acceptable.


Karen's the only one who has the interest, talent and knowledge to write Mandos properly. Please, bring on whole series involving Mandos. SHE makes them interesting.

I disagree. I think Abel G. Peña created a much more interesting and nuanced version of the Mandolorians.


Based only on his Insider Article? Or has he done more work that I'm not aware of?

 

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Beej 
Registered: Jun '09
Date Posted: 7/9 12:56pm Subject: Should Karen Traviss Write A Mandalorian War Novel?
I think Traviss should write one or more Mando War novels. As somone else said she had the time, talent and interest for it. Everyone is tied up with FotJ and whatnot, so why not?

I'll admit, I'm a Mando fan. But I find it intersting that there was so much flap about how people hate Mandos being elevating as there is now about the 'anti-jedi' kick of FotJ.
The Vong alos seemed to have caused a lot of flap as well. Somehow if the Jedi and/or Sith are not longer the big fish in the pond, everyone is thrown in fits of nashing their teeth and rending their garments. "There's somone who doesn't have the Force that can challenge our Jedi?! Oh no, the galaxy as we know it is imploding!"

Does Traviss put the Mandolorians in a more favorable light? Yes. What was the common image of mandalorieans up until maybe the Vong War and beyond? Cold, effecient, ruthless super commandos, bounty hunters and mercanaries; warmachines that gave Jedi and Sith pause. Either Traviss could write them as blood thristy war criminals who will do anythign for cash or write them they way she did. For me personaly, the way she wrote them explains how their culture survived the extiction of the Taung and endured thousands and thousands of years of war. As we all seen the Sith are throughly evil (except that cuddly wuddly Tribe) and as such could could not endure as a society for any significant length of time (dont' say Legacy comics because you know what I mean when I say significant length of time). The Mandos had to have some very good qualities and aspects for them to last.

As for Fett, I like his character. Do I think he's a swell guy...no, he's scary as hell. However he is not running around commiting murder and whatnot willy nilly like Sith do. He and his Mandalorians slide more into the 'neutral neaturl' category...kind of like the Chiss. They have their goals and motivations, that largely do not depend on the most high Jedi/Sith/Republic/Empire/GA. They are not something to be tred upon lightly and are generally avoided.

 

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Tricky  5356 posts
Registered: Jul '01
43253_Boba Fett
Date Posted: 7/9 2:10pm Subject: Should Karen Traviss Write A Mandalorian War Novel?
MercenaryAce posted:
DarthKuriboh posted:
Personal attacks are not acceptable.


Karen's the only one who has the interest, talent and knowledge to write Mandos properly. Please, bring on whole series involving Mandos. SHE makes them interesting.

I disagree. I think Abel G. Peña created a much more interesting and nuanced version of the Mandolorians.


I also think he created AN interesting version of the Mandalorians, but he didn't create the only version of Mandos. On top of that, it's too bad Pena can't/didn't write a novel or comic about Spar, Fenn Shysa, Tobbi Dala & Fett. I probably would've liked it. The HoM article in SWInsider was good, but it's really nothing more than footnotes, a Mandalorian article in a magazine. Plenty of writers have had a chance to expand on the whole Mando culture from Pena to Jeter, Luceno, Keyes, Lucas, the writers of the Marvel & KOTOR comics, Stover & Denning; instead they wrote tiny stories here & there that leave the Mandos as scattered & different from each other as the vast number of alien species in all of SW.

I'd love to see a solid SW novel that deals with the Mandalorian civil wars in the OJO, or one dealing with the Imperial occupation of Mandalore in the NJO. No one's AFAIK would even want to write anything like that, except for Karen Traviss. Prove me wrong! Look here, in this thread it seems like almost everyone would want to read a Mandalorian War novel, as long as KT doesn't write it, yeah? Then lets all work together to convince Sue Rostoni & LFL that we want this book, under the condition that Traviss either doesn't go overboard on Mando nationalism or that someone else gets to write it.

Can we work together to make it happen?

 

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Tricky  5356 posts
Registered: Jul '01
43253_Boba Fett
Date Posted: 7/9 8:00pm Subject: Should Karen Traviss Write A Mandalorian War Novel?
Tricky posted:
MercenaryAce posted:
DarthKuriboh posted:
Personal attacks are not acceptable.


Karen's the only one who has the interest, talent and knowledge to write Mandos properly. Please, bring on whole series involving Mandos. SHE makes them interesting.

I disagree. I think Abel G. Peña created a much more interesting and nuanced version of the Mandolorians.


I also think he created AN interesting version of the Mandalorians, but he didn't create the only version of Mandos. On top of that, it's too bad Pena can't/didn't write a novel or comic about Spar, Fenn Shysa, Tobbi Dala & Fett. I probably would've liked it. The HoM article in SWInsider was good, but it's really nothing more than footnotes, a Mandalorian article in a magazine. Plenty of writers have had a chance to expand on the whole Mando culture from Pena to Jeter, Luceno, Keyes, Lucas, the writers of the Marvel & KOTOR comics, Stover & Denning; instead they wrote tiny stories here & there that leave the Mandos as scattered & different from each other as the vast number of alien species in all of SW.

I'd love to see a solid SW novel that deals with the Mandalorian civil wars in the OJO, or one dealing with the Imperial occupation of Mandalore in the NJO. No one's AFAIK would even want to write anything like that, except for Karen Traviss. Prove me wrong! Look here, in this thread it seems like almost everyone would want to read a Mandalorian War novel, as long as KT doesn't write it, yeah? Then lets all work together to convince Sue Rostoni & LFL that we want this book, under the condition that Traviss either doesn't go overboard on Mando nationalism or that someone else gets to write it.

Can we work together to make it happen?


Holy crap, I threadkiller'ed. I stumped everyone, raised_brow .

 

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yoda4982  1952 posts
Registered: Jul '02
42321_Mandalore the Ultimate
Date Posted: 7/10 12:24am Subject: Should Karen Traviss Write A Mandalorian War Novel?
Dougie_Five posted:
yoda4982 posted:
Let KT write from the MAndo perspective, let someone else write the Republic perspective and Sith Perspective.


Problem is, KT's novels feel like they were written from the Mando perspective quite literally, as in a Mandalorian *literally* sat down and wrote some fiction; right down to the dumbed-down mischaracterisations of Jedi characters almost to the point of parody and farce. I'm all for novels where the point-of-view is something other than the traditional good-guy perspective, but the authors of such novels need to do it without ruining the immersion by moving the bias outside of the thoughts of the protagonists and into the behaviour and actions of the other characters.

I want to read a novel where I can believe the dialogue and the behaviour of the characters would be identical if someone else wrote about the same story from the Republic/Jedi p.o.v., instead of wanting to shout at the page because of all the straw men the author has made out of established characters and the rubbish that comes out of their mouths. Until Traviss can pull this off she does not deserve such a responsibility.


Yet, we always get a very Jedi version of the galaxy with alot of other writers.

My point is that let them be styled in a war journal short of way. I think the complaint should be on her style not that she loves mandos. What people don't like is she likes the action, the narration and the plot to flow from her characters not some all knowing 3rd person view that is common. (not saying that style is bad, just more common).

Look i love a novel that paints the Jedi in a favorable light and one that does so for mando, smugglers, imperials, etc.

That is the positive aspect of the EU, its not hindered by Lucas's story, The Good v Evil/ Jedi v Sith is perfect for the movies and the EU, but the reality is in a galaxy of trillions, there are various points of view and i'd like to read some of them.

I've always felt that yes the Jedi are highly more scrutinized in KT's work, but everyone else in the Galaxy is viewed under the Jedi microscope in those other novels.

The last statement you made, i keep hearing this alot, but really can't place where is comes from...could you elaborate more on it for me so i can better understand. (i'm not be sarcastic, i'm just trying to understand better)



 

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Robal_Krahl  9404 posts
Registered: Dec '03
49122_Ulic Qel-Droma (83109)
Date Posted: 7/10 1:03am Subject: Should Karen Traviss Write A Mandalorian War Novel? - Date Edited: 7/10 1:09am (1 edits total) Edited By: Robal_Krahl
yoda4982 posted:


The last statement you made, i keep hearing this alot, but really can't place where is comes from...could you elaborate more on it for me so i can better understand. (i'm not be sarcastic, i'm just trying to understand better)






A straw man is a form of argument that misrepresents another's position. Traviss tends to write this into virtually all of her characters when it comes to discussing Jedi. You may have noticed the anti-Jedi bias in many of her books. Many of her characters show disdain for Jedi, but the reasoning they often produce is a gross misrepresentation of what the Jedi actually are.

There's a formula for it:

Person 1 presents their position (Position A).

Person 2 ignores key elements of Position A and presents Position A as something else entirely (Position B).

Person 2 attacks Position B, coming to the conclusion that Position A is wrong.

 

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Beej 
Registered: Jun '09
Date Posted: 7/10 9:17am Subject: Should Karen Traviss Write A Mandalorian War Novel?

A straw man is a form of argument that misrepresents another's position. Traviss tends to write this into virtually all of her characters when it comes to discussing Jedi. You may have noticed the anti-Jedi bias in many of her books. Many of her characters show disdain for Jedi, but the reasoning they often produce is a gross misrepresentation of what the Jedi actually are. posted:




So? Alot of her characters, especially in LotF, had no reason to like the Jedi. The Mandos in particular have been blood enemies for thousands of years. Why would they have anything but a heavily biased position? Its been brought up in this threat repeatedly and ignore side stepped by the anti-traviss readers that beyond the Jedi, those who personally know the Jedi or have benefited by their actions have no reason to care for the Jedi at all. If you talk to Imperials, Mandos, the people who backed the CIS, the Vahl, the Krath, the Sith, the Hutts or the Chiss they wwould give you biased to grossly unrepesentitve descriptoins/narratives of the Jedi.
Most Chiss would consider them meddlesome troublemakers sticking their noses into the affairs of others because of some salf-apponited mandate of greatness, as well as being spec-ops soldiers for the Republic/GA. Imperial, even Remnant Imperials see them as boogy-men. The ordinary citizens of the CIS see the Jedi as corrupt power hungery servants or dupes of a corrupt government. The Hutts see them as velvet lined weapon used by the human dominated galaxy governments to impose order.

People in the real world do this as well, why should the star wars universe be any different? What is so bad about having biased anti-jedi characters and groups? I honestly do not understand the violent dislike of the woman or her style. I personal tend to dislike Denning because I feel Aaron Karen had a better grasp on development of characters and galactic events/politcs outside of the Jedi. However I'm no where near the point of demnding that he never write another book or demand someone needs to rein in what he writes.

 

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MercenaryAce  2804 posts
Registered: Aug '05
8117_Y-Wing Pilot
Date Posted: 7/10 10:14am Subject: Should Karen Traviss Write A Mandalorian War Novel?
Tricky posted:
MercenaryAce posted:
DarthKuriboh posted:
Personal attacks are not acceptable.


Karen's the only one who has the interest, talent and knowledge to write Mandos properly. Please, bring on whole series involving Mandos. SHE makes them interesting.

I disagree. I think Abel G. Peña created a much more interesting and nuanced version of the Mandolorians.


I also think he created AN interesting version of the Mandalorians, but he didn't create the only version of Mandos. On top of that, it's too bad Pena can't/didn't write a novel or comic about Spar, Fenn Shysa, Tobbi Dala & Fett. I probably would've liked it. The HoM article in SWInsider was good, but it's really nothing more than footnotes, a Mandalorian article in a magazine. Plenty of writers have had a chance to expand on the whole Mando culture from Pena to Jeter, Luceno, Keyes, Lucas, the writers of the Marvel & KOTOR comics, Stover & Denning; instead they wrote tiny stories here & there that leave the Mandos as scattered & different from each other as the vast number of alien species in all of SW.

I'd love to see a solid SW novel that deals with the Mandalorian civil wars in the OJO, or one dealing with the Imperial occupation of Mandalore in the NJO. No one's AFAIK would even want to write anything like that, except for Karen Traviss. Prove me wrong! Look here, in this thread it seems like almost everyone would want to read a Mandalorian War novel, as long as KT doesn't write it, yeah? Then lets all work together to convince Sue Rostoni & LFL that we want this book, under the condition that Traviss either doesn't go overboard on Mando nationalism or that someone else gets to write it.

Can we work together to make it happen?

That isn't what I was saying. I was responding to someone else who clearly said that Karen Travis is the only one "with the interest, knowledge and talent to write Mandolorians properly" and"she makes them interesting". This implies, if not outright states that no one else besides Karen Travis produced an interesting take on the Mandolorians. I am bringing attention to another author who produced a lot of Mandolorian lore and helped flesh them out without many of the problems people here have charged KT with.

And in general I am kind of sad that Mandolorians are now inseparable from KT in the minds of the fandom, whether her and/or their supporters and detractors, when other people such as Abel, or the KOTOR team, JJM and the early Marvel writers have all brought a good deal to the Mandolorian table.

 

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