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Author	Topic: The galaxy, hyperpspace and relativity...
johnthejedi24 Registered: Oct '04	Date Posted: 7/26 1:25am Subject: The galaxy, hyperpspace and relativity...
	I have a few questions and conundrums. Here it states the Star Wars galaxy is 120,000 light years across. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_galaxy The speed of light is 186,282.397 miles per second. Light takes along time to get here from distant stars of course. If the Star wars galaxy uses the same type of physics that we do than what has happened at one side of the galaxy is OLD news to the other side, possibly hundreds of thousands of years for the light from one side to reach the other. Say it takes a few days on a VERY fast x1 hyperdrive to reach from one dies to the other. When you get back even with so called "relativistic shielding" hundreds of years should have taken place, not a few days. time does not stand still in one place over the entire universe. One second occuring right now is not one second of the same time in another galaxy far away, nor even in the same galaxy. The same way with information news/information broadcasts in the galaxy. How can events happen in near real time THOUSANDS of light years away? Although even with most news broadcasts, by the time it reaches the outer systems it is weeks or months old. Maybe I am just confused. I just do not see how it would work? By the time the light from a star reaches use from even the closest neighbor Alpha Centauri, 4.4 years would have passed on that planet. Wouldn't for every year that passes here, 4.4 years pass on Alpha Centauri? The same should go for the GFFA. -----signature----- All hail the Imperial Remnant.
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Zorrixor Registered: Sep '04	Date Posted: 7/26 2:31am Subject: The galaxy, hyperpspace and relativity... - Date Edited: 7/26 2:34am (2 edits total) Edited By: Zorrixor
	Magic. The explanation for hyperspace travel is a long and complex one, full of plot holes and continuity clashes. Spectre of the Past talks of two weeks to reach Imperial Space; Revenge of the Sith talks of more like two minutes to reach Mustafar. To address relativity and speed of light problems though is a more simple matter: hyperspace travel is faster than light travel. That means it is Ludicrous Speed of a power far beyond that which real physics can currently make sense of. Physics would speculate on going backwards through time, Star Wars throws out "relativistic shielding" to just play sci-fi-pseudo-science. (But then, even in real life we're arguably into pseudo-science land as none of us really completely "know" what happens once you pass the lightspeed barrier... if it's even possible.) As far as broadcasts on the HoloNet go? Again: Ludicrous Speed. The HoloNet use hyperwave transceivers, so broadcasts apply the same faster than light science as hyperdrives. This does, however, highlight a very interesting issue that few books dwell on: that the HoloNet is actually described as rather expensive and not as accessible as the stories frequently make out. Many Outer Rim worlds probably have very limited connections with the HoloNet (and could quite easily be cut off if pirates went and took out the local relays... opening up for some interesting stories where a world gets put into a total HoloNet blackspot that means pirates could invade before the Republic or GA have even been alerted). The average household probably doesn't have its own hyperwave transceiver, which I always imagine means that there are probably a lot of local media stations relaying the information. If you're on Tatooine for example, maybe Jabba's Palace had one installed, but Mos Eisley? They might have to rely on word of mouth, or what the local radio stations relayed from the reports picked up at head office, etc. It creates a rather more complex image than just every single household in the galaxy tuning into HoloNet News each night... and makes for a rather interesting setup as far as independent planetary propaganda goes. If the government cuts off the central HoloNet link? Kiss goodbye to knowing what's happening on Coruscant unless you want to invest in your own personal hyperwave transceiver, probably costing millions. It also shows why it's so easy for the central government to control information: few people probably can just log into the HoloNet to download all the information and resources they need. Unless you're one of the lucky, rich few... you probably don't actually have access to the wealth of the "Galaxy Internet" that the HoloNet represents. It's further interesting when you consider that not even all spacecraft have hyperwave transceivers; if you go strictly by the RPG stats, it's only the big ships usually, or the expensively modified ones. That probably means aside from the Falcon, there are probably few YT-1300s that have the capacity to just phone someone on Coruscant while out in the middle of deep space. But, having sidetracked a little, returning to the original point: It's magic.
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Zardi Registered: Jun '08	Date Posted: 7/26 3:13am Subject: The galaxy, hyperpspace and relativity... - Date Edited: 7/26 3:16am (1 edits total) Edited By: Zardi
	Wouldn't for every year that passes here, 4.4 years pass on Alpha Centauri? The same should go for the GFFA. What? Why would time go faster on Alpha Centauri? It takes light waves 4.4 years to travel from Alpha Centauri to Earth, because light has an actual speed, which you put near the beginning of your post. It doesn't travel instantaneously. This is how it works as I understand it, so someone please correct me if I'm wrong. There is the principle of gravitational time dilation, which has something to do with clocks running more slowly closer to objects of greater mass. Based on reading I've done to try to answer your question, this occurs because gravity causes objects to accelerate towards the center of mass of the object. And since traveling faster causes time to go slower (see the twin paradox), then being in a stronger gravitational field will cause time to move more slowly for you. However, this seems to be mostly relevant for speeds near the speed of light, and therefore, gravitational fields near black holes, which are much stronger than what the sun or Alpha Centauri produce. I'm sure that the gravity wells of the sun and Alpha Centauri are different from each other, but probably not different enough to cause noticeable time dilation such as what you suggest. This is all magically fixed in the GFFA through hyperspace travel and relativistic shielding, futuristic technologies that we unfortunately do not possess here in the real world. They evidently can also get electromagnetic waves into hyperspace so that people can get news fairly quickly, even "live" if close enough to the point of broadcast. (Technically, there's no such thing as a "live" broadcast, even if you're standing two feet away from the action. But that's just being picky ) That makes me wonder about something: the Maw Installation (or the Jedi Shelter) was protected from gravitational time dilation by being placed right in the center, where it was balanced between all the black holes and was not accelerating in any direction (right?) relative to the black holes. However, during travel to the Shelter, a space ship must be subjected to some gravitational pull from the black holes, right? So I wonder if the ship would be far enough from the black holes that the pull just isn't very strong, or if relativistic shielding functions even at sublight speeds. Or maybe I'm just taking this all too seriously. Cuz it's all just space magic. Edit: ...and what Zorrixor said. Cuz it took me an hour to write this post and I didn't see his. -----signature----- "Son, go beat her up." "Sir?" "Go on up there and knock her down a few times." "Yes, sir."
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 7/26 3:22am Subject: The galaxy, hyperpspace and relativity...
	This is how it works as I understand it, so someone please correct me if I'm wrong. It's the oddity of physics. Space and Time are actually the same thing. Ergo, physically traveling across the galaxy will more or less actually bring you back in time. Places in certain sections of the universe are much younger than other sections of the universe. For example, there's 20,000 years of human history on planet X. Yet if you go to Planet Y then it's only got 5,000 years of human history.
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johnthejedi24 Registered: Oct '04	Date Posted: 7/26 3:26am Subject: The galaxy, hyperpspace and relativity...
	What I meant is that since Alpha Centauri is 4.4 light years away. That it takes 4.4 years for that light to reach here. If you take a look at alpha centauri through an ultra powerful telescope or sensor you are seeing the planet in the past tense not at the same moment in time as yourself. Or are you seeing it as it is 4.4 years from now? If you go through hyperspace with relativistc shielding to Alpha Centauri and it only takes a couple of minutes if not less to get their, would only a couple of minutes have passed on Alpha Centauri as well? Without the shielding and traveling through hyperspace how much time would have passed outside the ship? Maybe I just need some refresher physics courses! -----signature----- All hail the Imperial Remnant.
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Excellence Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 7/26 4:18am Subject: The galaxy, hyperpspace and relativity...
	Oh, don't complexify this, Johnny. This isn't Sean Williams or Alastair Reynolds. The first page of Hamiliton's Reality Dysfunction had so much hard diction I returned it to the shelf. This series is easy reading. Still, you bring up one of my pet topics: hyperspace. Hyperfast acceleration, is what the ship guides call it, essentially. So what if you turn off the "interial field?" Does the ship crush on entry? How did Skywalker and Katarn comlink in Jedi Outcast whilst in hyperspace? What if you turn off a ship's field in subspace and jump up, will you be thrown into a bulkhead? I try not to think of these things. It's like trying to beat Zelda's Marathon Man... -----signature----- Rock-a-by baby, on the treetop, Beaming with pride, the filth they hold, But when the wind blows, my temper implodes, High above a pit, filled with sharkticons, Down will come hardcover addicts, beaming no more. ©
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Zorrixor Registered: Sep '04	Date Posted: 7/26 4:38am Subject: The galaxy, hyperpspace and relativity... - Date Edited: 7/26 4:52am (5 edits total) Edited By: Zorrixor
	johnthejedi24 posted: What I meant is that since Alpha Centauri is 4.4 light years away. That it takes 4.4 years for that light to reach here. If you take a look at alpha centauri through an ultra powerful telescope or sensor you are seeing the planet in the past tense not at the same moment in time as yourself. Or are you seeing it as it is 4.4 years from now? Well, you're still seeing it 4.4 years in the past (i.e. it may have blown up in a super nova by now or been destroyed by a Martian Death Star but we won't know for another 4.4 years). Hyperspace is just silly speeds, but whatever is actually happening at a fixed point in time is still happening, so if Alpha Centauri just went boom and you could magically fly there in an instant, free of all relativistic phenomena, then you'd find a wasteland. Which actually raises a rather interesting concept of parallels to what we have with "Eclipse Hunters" but, in Star Wars, people such as "Alderaan Hunters", i.e. groups who travel the galaxy to keep ahead of the light that came from Alderaan's sun before it was blown up. If the galaxy is 120,000 light years across, then in theory you could travel to the outskirts of Wild Space, pull out a giant telescope, and still look back and see Alderaan. Such strange, strange little men they would be... travelling the galaxy to watch the Death Star blowing up Alderaan again and again and again... "The Empire did it!" "You have no proof!" flies to Tatooine, pulls out telescope, hits record, flies back to Coruscant "Yes I do!" Hmm... you know, this opens a whole new world of storytelling. "Who are the Celestials?" physicist smacks historian on the head "If you got off your ass you could fly to the edge of the galaxy and look back and find out." Voren Na'al has no excuse for continuity mistakes! Of course, this is also the galaxy where just because you can't find Kamino in a database it apparently is impossible to pull out a telescope and go: "Look at it you idiot. Just karking look at it!" Then again, I suppose it's possible Jocasta could have turned around and gone: "It must have been destroyed at some point in the last 60,000 years."
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Cynical Registered: Oct '04	Date Posted: 7/26 6:59am Subject: The galaxy, hyperpspace and relativity...
	The OP might have a point about different locations in the galaxy experiencing time dilation. The orbital velocity around the galaxy's center is slower for stars at the edge of the galaxy compared to those near the center. This is nothing you'd notice in a local reference frame since at any given point in the galaxy, all natural objects within dozens of light years' distance would have a nearly identical orbital velocity, making it look like they are not moving at all. Taking the entire galaxy as a reference frame however, there might be a noticable difference, such as a person in the outer rim communicating in real-time with someone on coruscant might find that the coruscanti is talking slightly slower than normally.
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VadersLaMent Registered: Apr '02	Date Posted: 7/26 7:13am Subject: The galaxy, hyperpspace and relativity...
	When you look at real models for FTL, warp bubbles and wormholes, relativity is gone. Realtivity only occurs for conventional-approaching the speed of light propulsion. I relize you see the Falcon leaving the area fast but once it enters hyperspace it will no longer be reflecting light so no one is going to be following the phantom light trail of the Falcon as it races far ahead. -----signature----- Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic-Arthur C. Clarke Any sufficiently advanced extraterrestrial intelligence is indistinguishable from God-Michael Shermer I'm a sexy shoeless GOD OF WAR! #347 on SLG's List Of Sexy Men
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DarthIktomi Registered: May '09	Date Posted: 7/26 7:17am Subject: The galaxy, hyperpspace and relativity...
	Zorrixor posted: To address relativity and speed of light problems though is a more simple matter: hyperspace travel is faster than light travel. That means it is Ludicrous Speed of a power far beyond that which real physics can currently make sense of. Physics would speculate on going backwards through time, Star Wars throws out "relativistic shielding" to just play sci-fi-pseudo-science. (But then, even in real life we're arguably into pseudo-science land as none of us really completely "know" what happens once you pass the lightspeed barrier... if it's even possible.) That's an interesting debate. Considering it's possible to alter the speed of individual photons, who knows? But of course, physics has produced more and more fun stuff over the past half-century than I care for. And by "fun stuff" I mean stuff that really doesn't have math behind it but is "just because" (e.g., imaginary mass).
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Zorrixor Registered: Sep '04	Date Posted: 7/26 7:35am Subject: The galaxy, hyperpspace and relativity... - Date Edited: 7/26 7:40am (1 edits total) Edited By: Zorrixor
	Ah, yes... slowing photons down. That makes for some amusing experiments too. Didn't they do something with superconductors a little while back where people stood one end of a block of some substance, then ran around to the other side and could still see themselves standing on the other side of the block? Or something along those lines. It may be the actual "man running around to see himself" was just the theory and that all they've physically done are some microscopic lab tests... but I'm sure I recall reading something along those lines not too long ago. I imagine it's made for some interesting debates about our understanding of the maximum speed of light in respect of our ultimately rather fixed position in space (i.e. how we ultimately can only ever test anything in Earth conditions, so are in a bit of a "the world is flat" dilemma again).
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blackmyron Registered: Oct '05	Date Posted: 7/26 9:46am Subject: The galaxy, hyperpspace and relativity...
	Let's take a look at relativity first. Not surprisingly, relativity deals with 'relative motion' - the most well-known form is 'special relativity', which just deals with objects moving in different inertial reference frames with respect to each other (i.e. constant velocities). If the difference in velocities is small, it's traditional Newtonian physics. If the difference is large (say, between someone standing on a planet and someone on a spaceship traveling at near the speed of light), that's where relativity kicks in. Relativity actually has a very simple premise. All experimental data showed (defying 'common sense' of how things were supposed to work) that light traveled at the same speed regardless of the relative speed of the observer. Einstein decided to make the assumption that it was true (instead of trying to come up with one more explanation on how it might seem that way but really wasn't). One of the results is that you can't 'accelerate' to the speed of light - the closer you get, the more energy it takes to accelerate further, until it takes an infinite amount of energy. Light only travels at the speed of light. 'General relativity' brought in the objects in relative reference frames that were accelerating, and that's where our fun friend 'time dilation' - and the twin paradox - comes into play. Special relativity states there is no 'preferred' reference for velocity - for a spaceship traveling at constant speed towards a planet, the physics is the same if you treat it as the spaceship standing still and the planet is rushing towards the ship. However, because only the spaceship accelerates and de-accelerates, someone on spaceship ages at a much slower pace than someone on the planet - the closer they were going to the speed of light (relative to the planet), the greater the time disparity. Confused? Well, throw all of this out of the window. It generally doesn't come into play in Star Wars - it would matter for 'sublight speeds' if they were going close to 'c', but an HNN article mentioned the hand-waving 'relativistic shielding' that apparently stops these effects (and had a story about a guy who had his fail and endure a traditional 'trip into the future') No, like many sci-fi stories Star Wars uses 'hyperspace'. The most common interpretation of 'hyperspace' is another physical dimension that we can't normally access. Think about how the surface of the Earth is approximately two-dimensional as far as travel goes - and how air flight, going through our 'third' dimension, radically altered our ability to get from place to place. Something similar goes on here - ships enter this additional direction and use it as a 'shortcut'. And it doesn't violate relativity because you're 'traveling' in another spacial dimension where you won't exceed 'c' but can still effectively travel 'faster' virtually. Communications work the same way - hyperspace signals travel through hyperspace and thus manage to go around the light barrier. Now, throw this out as well. While many Star Wars authors seem to follow this traditional approach (K-Mac especially), the resident technical expert - Dr. Curtis Saxton - chose a different route. See, there's another solution to Einstein's modifications to Newton's equations of motion for special relativity - that objects already moving faster than the speed of light are okay, they just can never go 'below' the light barrier. Oh, and they travel backwards in time relative to 'normal' matter. Yes, it's 'tachyons', which over in Star Trek can do everything and anything. 'Hyperspace' is just the normal universe as it appears to objects in the 'tachyonic' universe. (Of course, with the no preferred reference frame the 'normal' universe appears to be going faster than the speed of light - and going backwards in time - to the 'tachyonic' universe, but I digress) I understand why a physicist went with this approach - tachyons are a 'known' (if only theoretical) phenomenon, whereas there's no evidence of another accessible spacial dimension (string theory posits a number of them, but they are 'curled up' and therefore useless for these purposes). However, the nature of tachyons themselves just, as Hermes Conrad once said 'raises further questions'. For all the strictly technical approach was supposed to do, there's hand-waving a'plenty, especially with the resident 'mysterious substance' hypermatter - which is doubly confusing, as the term actually has a pre-existing meaning in physics, matter that is made from one of the other two families of basic particles. It's a huge mess, frankly, and instead of settling the issue it's just led authors to use the term 'hyperspace' in whatever manner they want with little or no consistency. Frankly, I think they should've just gone with Professor Farnsworth's 'Dark Matter Engine' explanation - 'the spaceship stands still, the engine moves the universe around the spaceship'. -----signature----- Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. "Come on Dave, you're taking this stuff too seriously." - George Lucas "Reality can rarely be explained without contradictions." - Karnak
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ZanderSolo Registered: May '07	Date Posted: 7/26 10:53am Subject: The galaxy, hyperpspace and relativity...
	This thread has given me a headache. Lol. Im going with the "Magic" answer. Probably because the field of Physics bores me though. -----signature----- Make a move and ill stab your jugular. I dont have a jugular. Then ill keep stabbing you until i find someplace that bleeds copiously.
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MistrX Registered: Jun '06	Date Posted: 7/26 11:19am Subject: The galaxy, hyperpspace and relativity...
	I always figured ships in hyperspace were jumping into some other dimension where physics didn't apply anyway. No relativistic speeds to worry about. -----signature----- We are well and truly forked
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Zardi Registered: Jun '08	Date Posted: 7/26 7:26pm Subject: The galaxy, hyperpspace and relativity...
	Charlemagne19: Space and Time are actually the same thing. Ergo, physically traveling across the galaxy will more or less actually bring you back in time. This sounds backwards to me. If you're traveling quickly relative to the rest of the galaxy, (without Star Wars magic) then it should look as if you traveled forward in time, since time is moving more slowly for you than for everyone else. That's the twin paradox: one twin stays on Earth. The other twin goes on a thrill ride near the speed of light. For the twin on Earth, decades have gone by. For the traveling twin, it may have been only a few days, but he is arriving back on Earth years and years later. In the future, not the past. Of course, the traveling twin didn't really time travel, but it might seem like he did for him and for his twin back on Earth. If you look across the galaxy through a telescope, the reason you see into the past is because the light from across the galaxy has been traveling for millions of years. It's not really still millions of years in the past on the other side of the galaxy. Now...if you're a physicist or something and you know that I'm wrong, please correct me, but you'll have to explain why the rest of the galaxy is stuck in the past. johnthejedi24: What I meant is that since Alpha Centauri is 4.4 light years away. That it takes 4.4 years for that light to reach here. If you take a look at alpha centauri through an ultra powerful telescope or sensor you are seeing the planet in the past tense not at the same moment in time as yourself. Or are you seeing it as it is 4.4 years from now? Think of it like this: it is the year 1820, and Sarah has just moved to Oregon. Her sister, Rachel, still lives back home in Boston. Rachel writes a letter to Sarah in March, and Sarah finally receives it in August when the next wagon train comes into town. By reading the letter, Sarah finds out what her sister Rachel was doing back in March. Is it still March in Boston? No, of course not. It's August just like it is in Oregon. Since then, Rachel could have gotten pregnant, or she could have planted a new crop, or she could even have died. But Sarah won't find out until the next letter arrives, months after the event occurs. It's the same thing for us and Alpha Centauri. The light from Alpha Centauri is like the letter traveling from Rachel to Sarah, in that it gives us a little window into the past due to the amount of time it takes to travel. Alpha Centauri is not still stuck in the past. It is "now" on Alpha Centauri, but we won't know what's happening there until the next "letter" (light waves) arrives. -----signature----- "Son, go beat her up." "Sir?" "Go on up there and knock her down a few times." "Yes, sir."
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Arawn_Fenn Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 7/26 8:14pm Subject: The galaxy, hyperpspace and relativity...
	Excellence posted: How did Skywalker and Katarn comlink in Jedi Outcast whilst in hyperspace? Or, for that matter, Dooku and Grievous in the Malevolence saga. Excellence posted: It's like trying to beat Zelda's Marathon Man... Ugh. Don't remind me. -----signature----- "Just when you think the amount of fail cannot possibly increase, the Internet keeps on giving." - SalvorHardin "Let's see them argue with nature and persuade the nonexistent polar bears not to eat them." - crownarmourer
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