Author Topic: The Official Imperial Commando: 501st Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)
wheressev 
Registered: Nov '09
42049_Kal Skirata
Date Posted: 11/7 3:02pm Subject: The Official Imperial Commando: 501st Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)
i'd have put money on that happening.thanks applause

 

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Havac  14342 posts
Title: Lit Mod of War
Registered: Sep '05
23735_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 11/7 3:19pm Subject: The Official Imperial Commando: 501st Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)
Robimus posted:
Darman: At first I didn't take to his bitter hatred of the Jedi, but as I thought about it I came to the conclusion that it did fit nicely. A Jedi did kill his wife and thats something that some people would never be able to let go, Darman is clearly one of them.

Except, the thing that's never touched on, is that his wife was a Jedi. It's like hating Brazilians because a Brazilian killed your Brazilian wife (when your Brazilian wife threw herself in front of the other Brazilian's Brazilsaber, completely at random and with no maliciousness from the Brazilian, who was defending himself from someone else entirely).

Robimus posted:
Rory Melusar: In being Anti-Force User he is kinda the typical Karen Traviss character, and yet I found myself thinking constantly about how much he would have enjoyed the Empire under Pellaeon. His views actually are not that different from Pellaeon's back in the day as presented throughout the Thrawn Trilogy and its Source Books.

I must have missed the part where Pellaeon was a raving, slobbering lunatic who thought anyone with powers he didn't have was the most dangerous maniac in the galaxy. Or where he advocated genocide. Or where he threw formality out the window in favor of being buddy-buddy with his boys. Or where he subverted the chain of command to pursue a personal vendetta against an entire broad swath of people because of their genes.

Robimus posted:
Kal Skirata: His hypocrisy has always shone through, just now we even have characters pointing it out. I don't see how that makes it any more important. Kal is Kal, he wants to save people that he feels need saving, even if they don't want to be saved. He's always been a big talker that doesn't back up his words.

No, we have people thinking about pointing it out, but there's never any actual confrontation. There are maybe one or two lines at a time of people going, "Hey, Kal, you're taking in a Jedi, hyaah!" And then it's just kind of ignored. It's like having Valkyrie be a movie about Tom Cruise going around monologuing in his head occasionally about how he reckons that Hitler fellow isn't quite all he's cracked up to be, and maybe a little dangerous, even though he loves him anyway. It's the most limp-wristed, halfassed, weaksauce pointing out of hypocrisy I've ever seen.

Robimus posted:
Maze: Maze was simply awesome in this book and was a much needed POV that really showed the Skirata Clan they weren't all they thought they were.

Yeah, he grouses for like a paragraph in-between begging them for help and having everyone else rip on him for being a jackass who doesn't think Jedi are Satan incarnate.

Robimus posted:
Kina Ha: She didn't really have much of a place in the story and her epigraph about Etain was just silly. She never knew Etain and presumably had all knowledge of Etain(all of which she learned at Kyrimorut) wiped by Jusik before she joined Altis. It just made no sense to me.

We agree!

Robimus posted:
Dr. Uthan: I liked how she was more greatly included in the story by the destruction of her world. Though I admit I find it a little silly that she believes that Palpatine has only one chemical weapon to unleash of the galaxy......

I liked that too. Captain Superweapon only has one plague and without it he's powerless? Sure . . .

Robimus posted:
Dred Priest: There was no point to his character really except for maybe a future book or story about Isabet seeking revenge. The Death Watch was set up without him as was the Imperial presence on Mandalore. Though he has been touched upon in previous books as being disliked by Gilamar, he didn't really have the role I thought he would here. Maybe there will be more in IC2

I figured it was IC2 setup, though with the series being cut short I'm not sure if every hanging thread in this book is going to get closure.

 

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Robimus  3717 posts
Registered: Jul '07
13691_HK-47
Date Posted: 11/7 9:41pm Subject: The Official Imperial Commando: 501st Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed) - Date Edited: 11/7 9:41pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Robimus
Accidental post. I'll be back. happy

 

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Robimus  3717 posts
Registered: Jul '07
13691_HK-47
Date Posted: 11/7 10:37pm Subject: The Official Imperial Commando: 501st Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)
Havac posted:
I must have missed the part where Pellaeon was a raving, slobbering lunatic who thought anyone with powers he didn't have was the most dangerous maniac in the galaxy. Or where he advocated genocide. Or where he threw formality out the window in favor of being buddy-buddy with his boys. Or where he subverted the chain of command to pursue a personal vendetta against an entire broad swath of people because of their genes.

Rory's general views about wanting an Empire without Force Users is more what I was thinking of. Pellaeon clearly feared Vader, clearly feared C'baoth. He wasn't anti-Force User in the way Melusar is, but based upon the individuals running the Imperial Remnant I think he greatly believed in an Empire run by normal folk.

This struck me as very similar to Melusar's take of loyalty to the Empire but not the darksiders running it. Melusar wants an Empire free form Dark Siders. Pellaeon's Empire was ruled without the influence of Force Users. Yes, Miat Temm advised, Marek Stele was around somewhere, but they were not running the Government and not in prominate positions what so-ever.

Melusar's fear of Force Users is very clearly much greater than Pellaeon's, but I still think there is a comparison there and that Holy Rory would have really enjoyed the Imperial Remnant.

Havac posted:
Except, the thing that's never touched on, is that his wife was a Jedi. It's like hating Brazilians because a Brazilian killed your Brazilian wife (when your Brazilian wife threw herself in front of the other Brazilian's Brazilsaber, completely at random and with no maliciousness from the Brazilian, who was defending himself from someone else entirely).

Still, a Jedi killed his wife. No matter how many ways you try to slice it, this is a way that racism works in society. A person belonging to group x does something to a person. That person goes onto view everyone that looks like a group x person in a certain way.

Certainly not all people operate this way but look toward who Darman's role models are. Is he racist(if thats the right term), yes he is. He hates the Jedi, but at least he has a reason for his hate. He blames the Jedi Order for ruining his life and legitimately thinks they want to steal his kid. It may be an ignorant view, but it is what he believes.

Is it a rational view? No it isn't but based upon Darman's life experience its what he's come up with. Keep in mind he seems at least part way insane in the latter portions of the book.

People hate for much less than what happened to Etain, heck some hate over blog comments they don't agree with wink . While I don't agree that Darman should hate the Jedi, I can understand why he does, particularly in his fragile state of mind.

Havac posted:
No, we have people thinking about pointing it out, but there's never any actual confrontation. There are maybe one or two lines at a time of people going, "Hey, Kal, you're taking in a Jedi, hyaah!" And then it's just kind of ignored.

Darman doesn't ignore it, in fact he changes his whole view in the novel about it. He no longer trusts Kal with his child, no longer trusts Kal's judgement.

I really thought Maze made his point quite well.

"He'll(Zey) will get you killed"-Skirata

"So? It'll be my choice. I'm not one of your poor dumb victim clones. You didn't free them from the Jedi. You just brainwashed them for Mandalore. When are you going to let them think for themselves?" - Maze

If that not confrontation then I don't know what is. Kal gets called on this over and over again in the book. Called by Maze, called by Darman, called by Ny...its a central theme to the book-this idea that Kal is soft on the Jedi despite his words, that he talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk.

I'm simply not sure what you want done with that whole theme. It pointed to repeatedly but there is nothing any character can really do about it. Maze is willing to fight over it but really the Jedi themselves are depending upon Kal for their lives. In the end Kal does contact Altis to send Zey and Kina to him, so some action is taken? I'm not sure what else there is that could have been done.

Havac posted:
Yeah, he grouses for like a paragraph in-between begging them for help and having everyone else rip on him for being a jackass who doesn't think Jedi are Satan incarnate.

I assume you can give me quotes of everyone who ripped on him?

"Zey's here," Maze snarled. "I'm responsible for that, the wars over, and you need to change the recording Sergeant, because its getting kind of Monotonous."

The only reason Maze and Ordo didn't come to blows was Jedi intervention. And I strangly don't recall any character except Skirata ripping Maze, nevermind all of them. And Maze's response is:

"Well it looks like Jedi night at Kal's, if you don't mind me saying so. And a Kaminoan? Going soft Sergeant? So your going to lecture me on on consorting with the enemy, are you?"

Maze doesn't have a big role in the story, but what role he does have is very solid. He's a complete and unadulterated anti-Skirata POV.......and in Kal's face no less. Your going to have to show me something more than you have to make me view that any other way.

 

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S1thari  683 posts
Registered: Oct '08
48853_Darth Caedus (711092)
Date Posted: 11/7 11:10pm Subject: The Official Imperial Commando: 501st Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed) - Date Edited: 11/7 11:11pm (1 edits total) Edited By: S1thari
Robimus posted:
Certainly not all people operate this way but look toward who Darman's role models are. Is he racist(if thats the right term), yes he is. He hates the Jedi, but at least he has a reason for his hate. He blames the Jedi Order for ruining his life and legitimately thinks they want to steal his kid. It may be an ignorant view, but it is what he believes.

Is it a rational view? No it isn't but based upon Darman's life experience its what he's come up with. Keep in mind he seems at least part way insane in the latter portions of the book.


It all goes to show you how naive Darman truly is. Before, during the series, he was surrounded by clones his age and knew nothing but combat and war, and although they were all sort of different in their own ways, there were mostly the same -- same routines, same lingo, same friends/family, etc. Now that it's only Darman and Niner, it's easy to see how far off the reservation Darman has gone. Niner has always been the level-headed one, and is even more so in 501st because he knows Darman's having a tough time. As you said above, he's borderline insane (maybe insane is too harsh of a word, but I'll use it anyway) with rage and grief, and hating the Jedi is the only thing he has left now. He wasn't flash-trained with any skills or emotions to deal with losing a wife and a son. All he knows is war and combat, and now that's just about the only thing that's keeping him from losing it completely or lashing out like Ennen did.

With that said, it seems sort of obvious to me now that Darman is going to die charging headlong into a lightsaber with his bare fists or something similar. It's really the only way I can see his particular plot ending. Getting Kad and leaving Mandalore to live happily ever after on some farm world never really crossed my mind.

 

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Havac  14342 posts
Title: Lit Mod of War
Registered: Sep '05
23735_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 11/8 1:36am Subject: The Official Imperial Commando: 501st Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed) - Date Edited: 11/8 1:38am (1 edits total) Edited By: Havac
Rob, that's not criticism. That's lip service. Ny thinks about saying to Kal that he's a giant hypocrite, but doesn't. Maze mouths off to Kal once. Darman feels grumpy. But does anyone ever really give it to Kal? Is there ever a sustained conversation in which someone's really hard on him, and he's really forced to explore his issues? Does Ny stop thinking that Kal's just such a loveable sweetie anyway? No.

The tone of drooling adulation is slightly less than before, it's true. But it's never seriously challenged. There is not genuine, narratively-important followup on the criticisms the book occasionally and halfheartedly raises before stuffing them back into the Kal'buir Mantooth Is A Saint! box again.

"Well, Kal's not perfect," says the book. "But he means so well. His raging hypocrisy allows him to occasionally, grudgingly, do the right thing against all his conscious desires, which is so cute! He's vaguely aware of the fact that he's brainwashed his kids into a cult and is just as bad as those he hates, but doesn't let it bother him too much and never really considers not doing it! His slavering racist rhetoric masks an adorably soft heart for his children. Isn't he just so wonderful?"

 

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Darth_Zandalor  224 posts
Registered: Aug '09
42321_Mandalore the Ultimate
Date Posted: 11/8 7:41am Subject: The Official Imperial Commando: 501st Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)
Well, the sarcasm is coming out in full force isn't it? I love cynics, so much fun to listen to.

Still, haven't picked up the book yet, looking forward to it though.

 

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MercenaryAce  2816 posts
Registered: Aug '05
8117_Y-Wing Pilot
Date Posted: 11/8 10:08am Subject: The Official Imperial Commando: 501st Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)
Havac...I think your standards are too high. You only seem to want people go on long tirades supporting your point of view...the exact kind of thing you complain about Travis doing.

Personally, even in Triple Zero I saw the text basically calling out on Kal being a hypocrite. He flat out admits that to himself, and recognizes that the people he hangs out with are too messed to see it for themselves.

 

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Volderon  279 posts
Registered: Jul '07
40039_Luke Skywalker
Date Posted: 11/8 12:22pm Subject: The Official Imperial Commando: 501st Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)
Finished the book and loved it. When I read the RC and IC books I don't expect or even want them to have action. I like how it is character driven, and I feel for the characters. I'm all for a good story and the fact that one author has written all 5 books is amazing. Probably one of the few book series where I could read it again and enjoy them in a totally different way. Can't wait for the next one...too bad it's the last!

 

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Robimus  3717 posts
Registered: Jul '07
13691_HK-47
Date Posted: 11/8 7:52pm Subject: The Official Imperial Commando: 501st Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)
Havac posted:
Rob, that's not criticism. That's lip service. Ny thinks about saying to Kal that he's a giant hypocrite, but doesn't. Maze mouths off to Kal once. Darman feels grumpy. But does anyone ever really give it to Kal? Is there ever a sustained conversation in which someone's really hard on him, and he's really forced to explore his issues? Does Ny stop thinking that Kal's just such a loveable sweetie anyway? No.



I don't disagree about Ny, or that many characters in the book are soft on Kal even while pointing out his hypocrisy. But there are characters there calling him out, Maze being most prominate and unforgiving of the bunch.

The confrontation with Maze lasts from page 308 to 312, it isn't one line or one paragraph. It is significant enough for me.

Clearly Kal is held up on a pedestal by his followers and it does get repetitive, sure. But the Maze situation is a very different one from the others and for me very welcome. Even Darman losing his faith in Kal is a very different turn for the series.

Kal is the type of individual thats never going to really accept his own flaws, because he believes what he's doing is right....kinda like the Jedi. Karen really trys to draw a similarity there and for me it worked. Kal's doing what he thinks is right and nothing else matters. It smacks of being very similar to the Clone Wars era Jedi Order to me.

Volderon Posted:
Finished the book and loved it. When I read the RC and IC books I don't expect or even want them to have action. I like how it is character driven, and I feel for the characters. I'm all for a good story and the fact that one author has written all 5 books is amazing.

Thats what really makes it work for me as well. It's all about the journey the characters are taking. Whoever compared the story to the Godfather a few pages back really nailed it.

It's about family, its not about a Super Hero rushing to confront a Super Villian, it doesn't have an Epic scale to it, there are no space battles, no real lightsaber duels, the fate of the galaxy isn't on the line......and yet its still an incredible interesting and moving story.

And it hasn't always worked for me either(see Order 66), but the positive far outweighes the negative in general as far as my enjoyment of the series goes. It's something incredibly different and individualistic when compared to other stories in the Star Wars Universe.

And thats not to say that I think its better than everything else, just an interesting addition and side story in a galaxy far, far away.

 

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Havac  14342 posts
Title: Lit Mod of War
Registered: Sep '05
23735_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 11/8 11:17pm Subject: The Official Imperial Commando: 501st Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)
MercenaryAce posted:
Havac...I think your standards are too high. You only seem to want people go on long tirades supporting your point of view...the exact kind of thing you complain about Travis doing.

Personally, even in Triple Zero I saw the text basically calling out on Kal being a hypocrite. He flat out admits that to himself, and recognizes that the people he hangs out with are too messed to see it for themselves.

Yes, you're right. I should be happy with 99% Kal love and 1% swept-under-the-rug criticism, because how could I expect more? Anything more than that would be exactly what I'm complaining about!

I'm looking for something vaguely representing balance, or serious consideration of the opposite view that has some impact on the story. Currently we have nothing even remotely approaching either, though people are trying to sell that notion.

 

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QuentinGeorge  4769 posts
Registered: Dec '03
48582_Kaan (60609)
Date Posted: 11/8 11:28pm Subject: The Official Imperial Commando: 501st Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)
Damn you Havac, you know that you should accept mediocrity.

 

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JediWampa  604 posts
Registered: Feb '00
7397_Wampa
Date Posted: 11/9 6:07am Subject: The Official Imperial Commando: 501st Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)
Havac posted:
Personally, even in Triple Zero I saw the text basically calling out on Kal being a hypocrite. He flat out admits that to himself, and recognizes that the people he hangs out with are too messed to see it for themselves.

Yes, you're right. I should be happy with 99% Kal love and 1% swept-under-the-rug criticism, because how could I expect more? Anything more than that would be exactly what I'm complaining about!

I'm looking for something vaguely representing balance, or serious consideration of the opposite view that has some impact on the story. Currently we have nothing even remotely approaching either, though people are trying to sell that notion.[/quote]

Or it's possible that others are reading objectively with no hidden hatred or agenda and you're seeing what you want to see instead.....


...not saying that's the case, just saying it's possible.

 

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Robimus  3717 posts
Registered: Jul '07
13691_HK-47
Date Posted: 11/9 8:05am Subject: The Official Imperial Commando: 501st Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)
Havac Posted:
I'm looking for something vaguely representing balance, or serious consideration of the opposite view that has some impact on the story. Currently we have nothing even remotely approaching either, though people are trying to sell that notion.

I'm selling nothing, you don't need to have the same take on the book/series that I do. I think it would be good form though not to make claims about "everyone ripping Maze" when that clearly doesn't happen or writing a fake "quote" and attributing it to being what the book says.

As fun as it is to mock my quotes I'm sure, mine actually are taken from the book. wink

Now I'm sure your "fake quote" is meant as sarcasm or comedy or something, as are your comparisons of Kal to Hitler(despite the fact that Kal has commited no genocide).

Kal's family doesn't hate him, they accept his faults like they always have. This is nothing new, and if I recall correctly he has actually done good for these people in general. The story is about his self made Clan, and yes nearly every POV in the book is from those Clan members.

To me the book really isn't intended as a debate about Kal's actions/motives, thats not the focus of the story. There is a lot of anti-Jedi POV from Kal and company(as always), while at the same time they are helping every single Jedi they come across escape the purge. Kind of a double message there to me.

I personally can't condemn Kal Skirata for the thoughts floating around his head, when his actions are the exact opposite of his thoughts.

Chapter 12 is filled with that type of stuff and is the critical chapter in the book in my opinion. Without it the book would be a lot less, but I feel like its addition was very significant for numerous reasons.

Zey's arrival is a critical point in the plot, a point at which all Skirata's big talk is tested. And yes once again its shown that he lacks the courage of his convictions. I even loved Zey's scenes in the book, like this exchange:

"What did we ever do to you, Bardan? What did I do to drive you away like this? It's not just a pricipled stand about the degeneration of the Jedi Order-much as I respect all that."-Zey

"I'm still working it out" - Bardan.

Jusik didn't even have an answer for Zey and to me it was a strong scene. Bardan didn't know what Zey had done to him to make him hate/distrust him, he just simply didn't have an answer to the question.

QuentinGeorge Posted:
Damn you Havac, you know that you should accept mediocrity.

No, by all means don't. Just understand that mediocrity is a subjective word. wink


 

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wheressev 
Registered: Nov '09
42049_Kal Skirata
Date Posted: 11/9 10:04am Subject: The Official Imperial Commando: 501st Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)
haven't actually got book yet ordered it though.Are there any appearances by yayax squad, levet or tay'haai?

 

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