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Havac Title: Lit Mod of War Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 10/27 12:49pm Subject: The JC Lit Reviews Special: IMPERIAL COMMANDO: 501st (Spoilers) - Date Edited: 10/27 12:49pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Havac
	Imperial Commando: 501st, Karen Traviss's second-last contribution to the EU, is out and taking the Republic Commando crew into the Dark Times! Some rules: rate 501st on a scale of 1 to 10, supplementing your rating with a review, if you want to (It's not necessary but is highly encouraged). However, please do not rate or review the book until after you've read the whole thing. Thanks. Go for it. Some previous review threads: Republic Commando: Hard Contact, by Karen Traviss Shatterpoint, by Matthew Stover The Cestus Deception, by Steven Barnes Medstar I: Battle Surgeons, by Michael Reaves and Steve Perry Medstar II: Jedi Healer, by Michael Reaves and Steve Perry Jedi Trial, by David Sherman and Dan Cragg Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, by Sean Stewart Labyrinth of Evil, by James Luceno Revenge of the Sith, by Matthew Stover Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader by James Luceno Galaxies: The Ruins of Dantooine, by Veronica Whitney-Robinson Tatooine Ghost, by Troy Denning Survivor's Quest, by Timothy Zahn Enemy Lines I: Rebel Dream, by Aaron Allston Enemy Lines II: Rebel Stand, by Aaron Allston Traitor, by Matthew Stover Destiny's Way, by Walter Jon Williams Force Heretic I: Remnant, by Sean Williams and Shane Dix Force Heretic II: Refugee, by Sean Williams and Shane Dix Force Heretic III: Reunion, by Sean Williams and Shane Dix The Final Prophecy, by Greg Keyes The Unifying Force, by James Luceno Dark Nest I: The Joiner King, by Troy Denning Dark Nest II: The Unseen Queen, by Troy Denning Dark Nest III: The Swarm War, by Troy Denning Outbound Flight, by Timothy Zahn Republic Commando: Triple Zero, by Karen Traviss Legacy of the Force: Betrayal, by Aaron Allston Legacy of the Force: Bloodlines, by Karen Traviss Darth Bane: Path of Destruction, by Drew Karpyshyn Legacy of the Force: Tempest, by Troy Denning Allegiance, by Timothy Zahn Legacy of the Force: Exile, by Aaron Allston Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice, by Karen Traviss Legacy of the Force: Inferno, by Troy Denning Death Star, by Michael Reaves and Steven Perry Republic Commando: True Colors, by Karen Traviss Legacy of the Force: Fury, by Aaron Allston Darth Bane: Rule of Two, by Drew Karpyshyn Legacy of the Force: Revelation, by Karen Traviss Legacy of the Force: Invincible, by Troy Denning Coruscant Nights I: Jedi Twilight, by Michael Reaves The Clone Wars, by Karen Traviss The Force Unleashed, by Sean Williams Coruscant Nights II: Street of Shadows, by Michael Reaves Millennium Falcon, by James Luceno The Clone Wars: Wild Space, by Karen Miller Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor, by Matthew Stover Coruscant Nights III: Patterns of Force, by Michael Reaves Fate of the Jedi: Outcast, by Aaron Allston The Clone Wars: No Prisoners, by Karen Traviss Fate of the Jedi: Omen, by Christine Golden Fate of the Jedi: Abyss, by Troy Denning Death Troopers, by Joe Schreiber -----signature----- "Is there a captain's hat involved in this?" "I . . . don't know what department I want. I need . . . pants."
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AdmiralWesJanson Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 10/28 2:44am Subject: The JC Lit Reviews Special: IMPERIAL COMMANDO: 501st (Spoilers)
	Story: 4 Continues the story of the Skirata clan and their fight against the Empire. Overall, not much happens. A planet is depopulated, not a big deal. (I suppose I've been reading a bit too much Warhammer 40K stuff that it seemed such a minor thing to me.) Darman goes loopy and becomes a Jedi hater, Kal has moral conflicts, and surprisingly Scout is not too badly off. Overall, not much happens. Sort of like Triple Zero, but at least this time there is a feel of leading somewhere. Action is minimal. Except for two fights with fleeing Jedi, I can count shots fired and blows struck combined on one hand (both if you count Force pushes to prefent more blows being struck) Characters: 3 Most characters are pretty angst-y. Kal has moral dilemmas, Ordo has issues with being prime son, Bardan has issues with being an ex-Jedi, Ny has issues with being a liability, Zey has issues with guilr, Darman has issues with Jedi, Niner has issues with Darman, Arla and has issues being Arla. Uthuan goes from interesting villain to yet another member of the land of misfit toys. As for villains, there really aren't any worth speaking of. I like the idea that heroes are only as good as the villains they have to overcome, so there isn't much to say. Better than Order 66, with Etain getting herself killed like an idiot and the other characters playing 4 weddings and a funereal. Writing: 8 Written well, as has been Traviss's strong point so far. Some typos and misspellings though. Some points are brought up over and over though, like Etains offer to join Altiss's academy (May have to see about reading the Clone Wars book where that happened. I wasn't much interested in it before, but I like continuity) Continuity: 6 I was more excited at first to see expanded references, until I realized they were all to Children of the Jedi. Nice to see it coming up, but more variety would be nice, rather than one source where Traviss has latched on toone of the characters as being "good people." She seems to have adopted Pellaeon, Scout, and Altiss as characters she likes. At least from what I read, character damage is minimal. Still, Scout seemed much better treated by Yoda than Traviss seems to portray. I didn't really see any major shots at other sources this time around, like the newscasts from last book. Some of the little epigraphs bugged me though, like Palpatine telling his plans to a droid. Seemed like a Caedus-class moment, not something to be expected from the great schemer. Overall: 5 I really can't give it much higher when the first though on reading it was "At least it was better than O66." The entire book was basically a big moral debate. To be fair was a pretty good character piece, but I'm so burned out on Jedi vs Mandolorians that it didn't really excite me at all. It's becoming worse than Warlord of the Week, and at least those books sometimes had good villains or non-Jedi characters. -----signature----- Duke of Corellia Join the Corellian Browncoats in their fight against the evil Alliance! Fix the K-Wing! No more XJs! Make the next X-Wing a T-65K!
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iolo_the_bard Registered: Jun '05	Date Posted: 10/28 6:19am Subject: The JC Lit Reviews Special: IMPERIAL COMMANDO: 501st (Spoilers)
	I give this book a nice solid 8. It was a very good read, quick but not rushed. The characters were all portrayed very well, including ones from other sources like Scout. I enjoyed seeing the life of two commandos stuck behind enemy lines, and while I don't agree with Darman's reasoning, I can totally see why he made the choices that he did over the course of the novel. My two points off a perfect score come from 2 small issues I had with the book: The anti-Jedi propaganda was actually tolerable, since it was coming from the Empire, and Skirata. It was the pro-Mando propaganda that got to me. I've always felt that Traviss has made a small planet with a population of only a few million to be too galacticly important. At least this isn't as bad as "A Practical Man's" farce with the whole 'The third edge of the conflict between Sith and Jedi is the Mandalorians.' So minus one point for exaggerating the import of one planet compared to the rest of the the galaxy. My second complaint comes from the Death Watch storyline. I felt that it didn't go anywhere at all, other than being a small feud in the marketplace. I really hope that this plot line goes somewhere in the second IC book, or I'll feel even more let down. Minus one for currently pointless story arc. -----signature----- Correction. Niathal looks like Ackbar with fish breasts. -- Nick
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Havac Title: Lit Mod of War Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 10/28 9:53pm Subject: The JC Lit Reviews Special: IMPERIAL COMMANDO: 501st (Spoilers) - Date Edited: 10/28 10:06pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Havac
	Uaaaaaaaaauuuugh. I just don't know where to start. So I'll have to be scattershot about this. One, the romance. Good god, the romance. I've got nothing against romance. Love to see a little splash of romance; it can do a storyline wonders. It's missing from the current post-ROTJ EU; we've got settled couples and no fiery spark of romance establishing itself. But good gonk, not a single woman in this book can resist a hunky manly Mandalorian soldier. We go through the entire book, no hint, but at the end, "Oh, yeah, Ruu Skirata is totally into that one commando from Yayax Squad we never really see." Why? Because. Corr talks with Jilka for one minute, and she's into him. Why? Because we can't allow conflict in these complexity-phobic books; Jilka, the one person at Kyrimorut who really doesn't want to be there, the woman who basically got kidnapped, the woman who could add some tension and interest, falls for a clone boy and everything's nice now. Ny Vollen is into Skirata. Why? Because no woman of age can resist his grandfatherly charm, devotion to his children, murderous ways, and raging hypocrisy. Uthan, of all people, gets all hot and heavy with that dashing, ruggedly handsome, brilliant, and charmingly cynical Ymmij Gilamar fellow! Because they're both doctors, see, and he's got ARMOR! The wives are in the kitchen, and the women are falling for those rugged Mando men. Seriously, there's not a single woman in the entire story who is not involved with a clone. The only ones who don't get paired up are Kina Ha and Scout. And Arla, but she's insane, so she doesn't count. Next book, though, once she's cured, money says she hooks up with Jusik. Money. It's an up-armored Twilight. Except, instead of sparkly vampire skin, it's sparkly armor. Right down to the random sports-bonding scene. I suppose the Mormons do identify with Jews. Speaking of Jusik, he's a bitter, hypocritical, despicable asshat. Just like Kal. He saves Zey, then tells Skirata he knows the right thing to have done was to push him out an airlock. He's lost the slightest thing resembling a moral compass, yet he remains incredibly smug and self-satisfied that he's the good guy and the Jedi are evil. And, boy, is the Jedi-are-evil shtick laid on with a trowel here. You'd think it would be less jarring in a dark times book about Imperials; it's more jarring, because it's so far overdone. It's the worst yet for sheer petty, illogical, counterfactual venom. There's an epigraph of Kina Ha explaining why Etain was the GREATEST AND TRUEST JEDI EVER because she threw herself in the way to save a man she didn't know. Imperial Commando isn't a train; it's a lollercoaster. Speaking of lols and anti-Jedi sentiment, Holy Loly Roly is the most annoying character ever. He's a giant anti-Force-user bigot, which makes him a vaguely heroic figure to everyone in the book. This is because his family comes from Dromuund Kaas, where they were oppressed by the Prophets of the Dark Side (10 points for a POTDS reference; -100 points for it making no sense, and -100 more for being used solely in service of the book's universal and tiresome pursuit of simplistic 1-D psychological-trauma explanations for every single person's personality and actions, rather than making them interesting characters). He's a loathsome, tiresome caricature in the worst Traviss tradition, and he brings every part of the book he's in down with his over-the-top forbidden-wordiness. I'm fairly uncomfortable with how incredibly racist the main characters are, and how comfortable the book is with that. It's like "Aww, Archie Bunker you hilarious old curmudgeon"-level with its attitude to Kal's and everyone else's rabid hatred of Jedi and Kaminoans, except they're not spouting ignorant, impotent, and not particularly vicious stereotypes; they're out there wearing sheets burning crosses in people's yards. But because they find one or two they think are "Pretty OK for a ______, since they're not like all the other ______s, the bad ______s" they're really not so bad. The potshot at Denning is just petty, unprofessional, and ridiculous. I'm amazed it got through editing, and I was vaguely embarrassed to read it. Not for me; for her. So, the mythosaur skeleton isn't a skeleton; it's an oversized replica built as a tourist-trap amusement park, and sold to the Imperials for huge money on claims it's a sacred temple because lol Mandoz are awesome. Traviss, you really don't need to aggressively retcon every single aspect of the EU about Mandalorians you don't like. Accept it's a weird place; succumb to its quirky charm. The person who doesn't get the joke and stomps around angry shouting at the joker is the one who comes off foolish. Traviss needs to stop mistaking conversation for plot. She was so good about this in No Prisoners, but she's backslid to as bad as she's ever been. Nothing happens in 501st. Nothing. After a whole book of thinking about it, Darman and Niner don't escape. After a whole book of worrying about her, Arla isn't cured. After a whole plotline of wondering what to do with them and trying to shove them off on Altis, the Jedi are all still there at the end of the book. After a whole book of "Hey you old people get married" Ny and Kal haven't decided if they're into each other one way or the other. It's endless pages of Kal and his gang sitting around talking. And the actual Imperial Commando plotline is no better; it's about three missions with little actual action that serve solely as backdrops to Niner and Darman's angsting. It's not a plot; it's a disjointed mess desperately lying to you saying "I'm a plot" and knowing you're not buying it. I'm pretty sure suicide isn't supposed to have me rolling my eyes. Gibad was a terrible decision. Like a month after the declaration of Empire, they're going in and wiping out all life on a dissenting planet with a plague, and then bragging about it on the holonet and how the entire planet had it coming to them because one person from the planet engineered a disease for the Seppies. I mean, I realize it gave us some heavy-handed trauma for Uthan to moan about and never actually use to lead to anything even remotely interesting (can't have that), but this is just stupid. This is the Empire ABY, not twenty years BBY. And, of course, Uthan wants to wipe out Coruscant in revenge, and no one raises a moral peep, because it's okay to eliminate an entire innocent world to get back at Palpatine (oh, wait, "Palps" -- let's leave the internet shorthand on the internet, huh? Gonkdammit), since all those people on it are bastards anyway. I realize Traviss has a very . . . dyspeptic view of humanity, but really, I don't care. It does not improve the book. Why is Palpatine spouting nonsense about taking over the galaxy to his secretary droid? That's just remarkably stupid. I feel dumber having even considered the idea that such a line could be written. It's really hard to write books in a fictional universe when you actively reject the entire setting. See, the setting says, you have to train people as Jedi because untrained Force sensitives are dangerous. Traviss says, no, untrained Force sensitives are absolutely harmless, and it's only those pesky Jedi and their training that puts the galaxy in danger. The setting says, the Jedi are good folks who treat the clones well, and only accepted the army because they had to save the Republic. Traviss says, the Jedi are evil exploitative conscienceless bastards who don't care about the clones, and they're all reprehensible, and any Jedi who got shot had it coming to them, and the good Jedi know that. The problem is, she's not interested in the fictional framework; in maintaining the setting. She's not even interested in subverting the setting within the framework of the setting. She's interested in tearing it down wholesale and building a new setting saying how everything you knew was wrong. This is really not an attitude that works in franchise fiction. I'm sure I'm missing stuff, but it ain't positive stuff. I, for perhaps the first time ever, have absolutely nothing positive to say about a book. I can't think of a thing. 1.2. And the .2 is for not ruining Scout. Which is not the same as a positive; it's merely the absence of a negative. I am astounded by how thoroughly bad this book is. There are books I despise more. There are no books more unmitigatedly, thoroughly, and consistently awful, though. -----signature----- "Is there a captain's hat involved in this?" "I . . . don't know what department I want. I need . . . pants."
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Havac Title: Lit Mod of War Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 10/28 9:54pm Subject: The JC Lit Reviews Special: IMPERIAL COMMANDO: 501st (Spoilers)
	Average score: 14.2/3 = 4.73 -----signature----- "Is there a captain's hat involved in this?" "I . . . don't know what department I want. I need . . . pants."
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Valin__Kenobi Title: Author: Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Praji Registered: Mar '04	Date Posted: 10/28 10:31pm Subject: The JC Lit Reviews Special: IMPERIAL COMMANDO: 501st (Spoilers) - Date Edited: 10/28 10:53pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Valin__Kenobi
	n/m -----signature----- Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Fanboy: http://blogs.starwars.com/valinkenobi Generation Bantam/KJA/WEG "Before the "Oprah effect" bookstores were like monasteries. Now it's like going to Best Buy." -- Arawn_Fenn
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Arawn_Fenn Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 10/29 11:24am Subject: The JC Lit Reviews Special: IMPERIAL COMMANDO: 501st (Spoilers) - Date Edited: 10/29 11:25am (1 edits total) Edited By: Arawn_Fenn
	-- -----signature----- "James T. Kirk was a great man... but that was another life."
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Rew Registered: Dec '08	Date Posted: 10/29 12:31pm Subject: The JC Lit Reviews Special: IMPERIAL COMMANDO: 501st (Spoilers)
	Somewhat off-topic, but I notice there's no review thread for Republic Commando: Order 66? -----signature----- Currently reading: Survivor's Quest.
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Quinnocent-Till-Sith Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 10/29 1:02pm Subject: The JC Lit Reviews Special: IMPERIAL COMMANDO: 501st (Spoilers)
	Rew posted: Somewhat off-topic, but I notice there's no review thread for Republic Commando: Order 66? It exists. -----signature----- "Look, we've been trying to tell you for years which books are good! And you just don't listen! You're not listening now! You're just going out there and buying this d*** book!"
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Lord_Hydronium Title: Literature Gardener Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 10/29 1:03pm Subject: The JC Lit Reviews Special: IMPERIAL COMMANDO: 501st (Spoilers) - Date Edited: 10/29 1:04pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Lord_Hydronium
	There is, it just doesn't seem to be linked in the OP. EDIT: Beaten. -----signature----- Great midis have little midis Swimming round inside 'em And little midis have lesser midis And so ad infinitum.
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Kol_Skywalker Registered: Jun '06	Date Posted: 10/29 1:18pm Subject: The JC Lit Reviews Special: IMPERIAL COMMANDO: 501st (Spoilers)
	"The potshot at Denning is just petty, unprofessional, and ridiculous. I'm amazed it got through editing, and I was vaguely embarrassed to read it. Not for me; for her." What was the potshot at Denning? -----signature----- I'm not a Fanboy... I'm a FANMAN!
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Lord_Hydronium Title: Literature Gardener Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 10/29 2:18pm Subject: The JC Lit Reviews Special: IMPERIAL COMMANDO: 501st (Spoilers) - Date Edited: 10/29 2:22pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Lord_Hydronium
	Havac elaborates on that in the 10/28 11:08pm post of the discussion thread, and discussion of it continues from there. While we're on the subject, a general reminder to take discussion-type items to the discussion thread, and keep this thread just for reviews. -----signature----- Great midis have little midis Swimming round inside 'em And little midis have lesser midis And so ad infinitum.
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Rew Registered: Dec '08	Date Posted: 10/29 2:59pm Subject: The JC Lit Reviews Special: IMPERIAL COMMANDO: 501st (Spoilers)
	Huh, I hadn't even found it when I did a Google search. Thanks, QTS and LH! -----signature----- Currently reading: Survivor's Quest.
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ToddtheJedi Registered: Oct '08	Date Posted: 10/31 8:47pm Subject: The JC Lit Reviews Special: IMPERIAL COMMANDO: 501st (Spoilers)
	It sure is a shame that Ms. Traviss is leaving Star Wars, as this was a very good read. There were a few disappointments, but overall it was good. I liked all of the references to previously established continuity, like Jax Pavan or Plett's Well. The whole inclusion of Scout and keeping her in character is a mighty feat. Definitely an improvement for this series that made it fit in better with materiel set in the same time frame. I felt most everyone was in character, but that hasn't really been a problem for Traviss. Interesting to see Kal soften up toward the Jedi, even if he's only dealing with the outcasts. I like the idea of him remarrying so that his boys have a proper mother figure. Too bad there will only be one more book, because there were some new characters here that I really enjoyed. Roly Melusar, for one thing, seems to be a good man working for the wrong people. If he knew about Palpatine, he would probably desert with Niner and Darman, and I don't think his story is over just yet. Rede is also interesting as the average stormtrooper. His characters offers up some explanations as to the huge differences between the GAR and the Imperial Army. And even though they were already around, I enjoyed the expansion of Gaib and TK-0's characters. They kinda reminded me of Lorn Pavan and I-5. If any other authors write stories in the dark times era I hope they make their way into them. The expanded characterizations for Ny and Uthan were also One thing that made this book a little difficult to follow at times was the vast array of characters, most of them all in the same place. It does add some dynamic to the events on Mandalore, but it also means fewer "screen time" for some characters. I felt that half of Omega and the Nulls did nothing the entire time. Hopefully all of their stories get resolved in the next and probably final installment. And even thought the anti-Jedi sentiment was toned down, I felt it was a bit out of place considering the surviving Jedi were in a much worse position than the Mandalorians. I don't think anyone at that time would ever think the Jedi would start rebuilding the Order, especially under the current regime. Most of the Jedi are either too afraid to come out of hiding or just want to harm the Empire as much as possible. Darman's motives seemed a bit extreme at times; even though Etain died by the hands of Jedi, it was not their fault entirely. I understand anyone in his situation would want to lash out and make irrational decisions, but he seems as loopy as Arla Fett, who btw seems really out of place in this story and is just Traviss's excuse to insert the name Fett all over the novel. As for Darman, I see his characterization either spiraling downhill from here, or improving as soon as he sees Kad, if he ever does. So I give this a 7.2 for an enjoyable read and visible improvement over some of the RepCom books, and sticking to continuity. -----signature----- "Wookieepedia doesn't have a collection of images and media related to Cal Omas. Nobody does." Cal Omas' Wookieepedia article "Turn me, Dooku. I beg you. Show me the greatness of the dark side." Yoda
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BennyM Registered: Oct '07	Date Posted: 10/31 9:55pm Subject: The JC Lit Reviews Special: IMPERIAL COMMANDO: 501st (Spoilers)
	Honestly, I loved this book. It was a great pickup from O66, a great read and it makes me sad that Traviss' next book is her last. 9/10. Easy. -----signature----- This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time.
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Jacen7878 Registered: Aug '04	Date Posted: 11/1 7:28am Subject: The JC Lit Reviews Special: IMPERIAL COMMANDO: 501st (Spoilers) - Date Edited: 11/1 8:07pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Havac
	I am glad this is Karen no's last book. She has clearly overstayed here welcome. 1/10
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