Jedi Council Forums - Palpatine = Darth Bane?

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Author	Topic: Palpatine = Darth Bane?
DarthMRN Registered: Dec '07	Date Posted: 11/6 3:33pm Subject: Palpatine = Darth Bane? - Date Edited: 11/10 1:59pm (4 edits total) Edited By: Havac
	We know per DE and the EGttF that movies-Palp was a clone inhabited by a ghost. And that even by that body he was super-powerful in just about every area of the Force on a scale few other beings through galactic history could come close to. And that he continued on living after having been defeated by his apprentice, contrary to the teachings of his order. We also know per PoD and RoT (and the Legacy comics, I think?) that Darth Bane supposedly cared about power for power's sake, yet chose to devote his life to the establishment and continuation of a Sith organization that would defeat the Jedi sometime down the line, long after he was dead and buried. While scurrying in the shadows like a rat, I might add. And finally, we know per Shadow Hunter that Palpatine's plans were the culimination of centuries of Sith preparation and plotting. Centuries plural being a considerable part of the Order of the Sith Lords one thousand year existence, even at minimum. So allow me a hypothesis I've been pondering on: Palpatine was Darth Bane, the ghost of whom had taken over every Dark Lord since the founding of the Banites. And that this is how he grew as powerful as he was. That the RoT served the additional purpose of creating only a single individual for him to possess, rather than having to contend with many. Also, Palp's anger at losing the potential of the Chosen One would take on a new meaning if he was actually groomed as a body for the spirit. But this is not mere speculation. This thread has a purpose. Namely, what evidence can people think of to undermine or debunk this thesis? The first to occur to me is why Bane would destroy the Brotherhood of Darkness, and return the Sith to supplantion of the Master, if he really wanted to survive. But I can answer that by claiming that with immortality through ghosting, Bane/Sids might as well insure that the next body in line was superior to the last. Any more? Pick a reason. -----signature----- I prefer to leech, not to teach
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snelson Registered: Aug '05	Date Posted: 11/6 4:14pm Subject: Palpatine = Darth Bane?
	no i don't believe that. sidious was born 82 years before yavin and bane died around 1000 yrs before yavin. so no palpatine is not darth bane. -----signature----- I Love 1930'S 1940'S 1950'S Movies Hermione Granger Is A Beautiful Witch Dreaming Of Jeannie Olivia DeHavilland Still Kicking At 93 Daniel Radcliffe Is So Sweet Like Harry
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rumsmuggler Registered: Aug '00	Date Posted: 11/6 4:20pm Subject: Palpatine = Darth Bane?
	I'd like Sidious to stay as he is and not be a cover for a thousand year old body swapping Bane. -----signature----- W.W.L.D. What Would Lando Do
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DarthMRN Registered: Dec '07	Date Posted: 11/6 4:23pm Subject: Palpatine = Darth Bane?
	I can think of another one too, on reflection. Plagueis. Palp's speech in RotS about the irony of his death wouldn't make much sense if he were both people. And that part of the speech was hardly necessary for luring Ani in either. So that undermines the thesis, at least. But the whole Plagueis life-saving thing does not debunk it, though, as tempting Ani with the life-saving power was essential to luring him in. While later claiming to not have it, but require research to discover it in stead, would absolve him from making good on the promise, eliminating Padme in the process. Even if Palp was Plague, his actions would still make sense, as far as I can see. -----signature----- I prefer to leech, not to teach
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DarthMRN Registered: Dec '07	Date Posted: 11/6 4:25pm Subject: Palpatine = Darth Bane?
	snelson posted: no i don't believe that. sidious was born 82 years before yavin and bane died around 1000 yrs before yavin. so no palpatine is not darth bane. Well, if both of these are true, they would debunk the thesis. But have these facts actually been established? Particularly in Palp's case, the birth of the body doesn't really prove anything. -----signature----- I prefer to leech, not to teach
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Syntax Registered: Aug '01	Date Posted: 11/6 4:37pm Subject: Palpatine = Darth Bane? - Date Edited: 11/6 4:39pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Syntax
	DarthMRN posted: We know per DE and the EGttF that movies-Palp was a clone inhabited by a ghost. Wait, what? I'm pretty sure that was actively debunked. -----signature----- Lieutenant Colonel 9-LOM "Syntax" Corsair Squadron Commanding Officer CRS Vigilant - http://www.renegadewing.com/ "That's me, the life of the party" -- 9-LOM, 'One for the Money' "Flying is for droids" -- Obi-Wan Kenobi, 'Revenge of the Sith'
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rumsmuggler Registered: Aug '00	Date Posted: 11/6 4:45pm Subject: Palpatine = Darth Bane?
	Syntax posted: DarthMRN posted: We know per DE and the EGttF that movies-Palp was a clone inhabited by a ghost. Wait, what? I'm pretty sure that was actively debunked. Yeah, I forgot all about that. -----signature----- W.W.L.D. What Would Lando Do
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DarthMRN Registered: Dec '07	Date Posted: 11/6 5:02pm Subject: Palpatine = Darth Bane?
	Ah, yes. That thing again. Still, the EGttF is the most recent source. That should count for something. Though the at-one-time official intent to have movie-Palp be the original at least further weakens it thesis. Even if it does not debunk it. It does not bode well for that Leland post that it contradicts the way the Dark Side Sourcebook handles Spirit Transference though, particularly considering how it was made prior to the post. I would have expected better from Leland... Fire any more you might have. -----signature----- I prefer to leech, not to teach
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Syntax Registered: Aug '01	Date Posted: 11/6 5:24pm Subject: Palpatine = Darth Bane? - Date Edited: 11/6 5:26pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Syntax
	If what you're saying is true, why doesn't the Wookieepedia article on Palpatine (or I assume, his entry in the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, which is more recent than than the Essential Guide to the Force) reference him being a ghost in a clone body? In fact, where does the Essential Guide to the Force even say it? I don't have my copy handy, but I don't remember that at all. Edit-- if Leland's comment came after the Dark Side Sourcebook came out, then his comment would supercede it since it's the most recent source and would essentially "retcon" it. Although I don't see how his comment really changed anything. -----signature----- Lieutenant Colonel 9-LOM "Syntax" Corsair Squadron Commanding Officer CRS Vigilant - http://www.renegadewing.com/ "That's me, the life of the party" -- 9-LOM, 'One for the Money' "Flying is for droids" -- Obi-Wan Kenobi, 'Revenge of the Sith'
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DarthMRN Registered: Dec '07	Date Posted: 11/6 5:59pm Subject: Palpatine = Darth Bane? - Date Edited: 11/6 6:01pm (1 edits total) Edited By: DarthMRN
	Syntax posted: If what you're saying is true, why doesn't the Wookieepedia article on Palpatine (or I assume, his entry in the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, which is more recent than than the Essential Guide to the Force) reference him being a ghost in a clone body? The Wook? Because it is only as good as it's editors. And once you get to a certain level of discussion, fan interpretation and retelling of official sources just doesn't cut it any more. The CSWE? Could be any number of reasons. Lack of space for a subject that hasn't been elaborated upon anywhere, short of a brief mention in an essential guide. Ambiguity in the vein of whether Bane was the Sith'ari or not. So as to not step on the toes of any future creators. Also, on a general note, once you start asking "Why didn't [source] mention X?", there is no end to it. All we can realistically hope for is that one source doesn't contradict another one (and sometimes not even that). We cannot expect them to reference every related thing in continuity. Many of which are established later, and thus couldn't be referenced in the first place. Syntax posted: In fact, where does the Essential Guide to the Force even say it? I don't have my copy handy, but I don't remember that at all. I'm not surprised. It's subtle. EGttF pp. 38-39 posted: It was not the first time. He had previously utilized clones after he had discovered that the corrupting power of the dark side had a detrimental effect on his physical form. But after the Battle of Endor, he commissioned many more clones of himself to insure he would live forever. Syntax posted: Edit-- if Leland's comment came after the Dark Side Sourcebook came out, then his comment would supercede it since it's the most recent source and would essentially "retcon" it. Although I don't see how his comment really changed anything. I thought of that, but other continuity backs up the Dark Side Sourcebook. Specifically, the perceived error lies with Leland's statement that the vessel pretty much has to be empty for transference to take place, where the DS Sourcebook power enables the user to defeat the existing mind before taking over. The latter is far more consistent with Kun's possessed Jedi followers from TotJ (who were taken by entities far lesser than actual dark spirits, I might add), and the Hississ on Korriban in KotOR 2, which Kreia claims are controlled by the ghosts of the Sith. Not to mention Kharness Muur's influence over Celeste Morne. A bunch of Jedi and dark-side dragons is hardly what I would call "empty vessels". So, yeah, disappointed with that one. -----signature----- I prefer to leech, not to teach
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Syntax Registered: Aug '01	Date Posted: 11/6 6:32pm Subject: Palpatine = Darth Bane? - Date Edited: 11/6 6:39pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Syntax
	DarthMRN posted: Syntax posted: If what you're saying is true, why doesn't the Wookieepedia article on Palpatine (or I assume, his entry in the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, which is more recent than than the Essential Guide to the Force) reference him being a ghost in a clone body? The Wook? Because it is only as good as it's editors. And once you get to a certain level of discussion, fan interpretation and retelling of official sources just doesn't cut it any more. The CSWE? Could be any number of reasons. Lack of space for a subject that hasn't been elaborated upon anywhere, short of a brief mention in an essential guide. Ambiguity in the vein of whether Bane was the Sith'ari or not. So as to not step on the toes of any future creators. But my point is, Palpatine being a ghost in a clone body is a pretty vitally important and character-altering revelation - the fact that neither the Wookieepedia nor the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia even devote 1 sentence to the idea is pretty telling, especially since Wookieepedia cites its data very thoroughly. DarthMRN posted: Syntax posted: In fact, where does the Essential Guide to the Force even say it? I don't have my copy handy, but I don't remember that at all. I'm not surprised. It's subtle. EGttF pp. 38-39 posted: It was not the first time. He had previously utilized clones after he had discovered that the corrupting power of the dark side had a detrimental effect on his physical form. But after the Battle of Endor, he commissioned many more clones of himself to insure he would live forever. I don't see that as indicative that the one we see in the Prequel movies was a clone, only that he was aware of his body's deterioration and that he had clones in place between Episode 1 and Episode 6, and that he had even more clones made between Episode 6 and Dark Empire. Which is in-line with Leland's quote provided before. At the absolute best, I'd give you that maybe the one at Endor was a clone, but there's no indication that the Palpatine we see prior to that was anything but a human from Naboo. I think you're creatively reading into the Essential Guide to the Force on this one. -----signature----- Lieutenant Colonel 9-LOM "Syntax" Corsair Squadron Commanding Officer CRS Vigilant - http://www.renegadewing.com/ "That's me, the life of the party" -- 9-LOM, 'One for the Money' "Flying is for droids" -- Obi-Wan Kenobi, 'Revenge of the Sith'
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Arawn_Fenn Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 11/6 6:58pm Subject: Palpatine = Darth Bane? - Date Edited: 11/6 7:03pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Arawn_Fenn
	We don't ultimately know where he was really from, it doesn't have to be Naboo. -----signature----- "James T. Kirk was a great man... but that was another life."
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rumsmuggler Registered: Aug '00	Date Posted: 11/6 7:09pm Subject: Palpatine = Darth Bane?
	If Palpatine was Bane, you would think that he would be bold enough to call himself Darth Bane instead of Darth Sidious. Arawn_Fenn posted: We don't ultimately know where he was really from, it doesn't have to be Naboo. That is true, but since he was a Naboo senator, he would have to be a resident of the planet for a certain amount of time. It's probably best to assume that Naboo is his homeworld or at least his claimed homeworld. -----signature----- W.W.L.D. What Would Lando Do
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Arawn_Fenn Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 11/6 7:25pm Subject: Palpatine = Darth Bane?
	Oh, it's likely he's claiming it. Whether it's really the case is another story... -----signature----- "James T. Kirk was a great man... but that was another life."
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vong333 Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 11/6 7:59pm Subject: Palpatine = Darth Bane?
	No, the real question you would have to ask is when the TOR MMO is finally released and we know more of the Sith, could the Sith of the prequels be a copy of the sith of that era. What I mean is, your going to have a sith emperor that comes out of hiding and has the power to live a long time, he comes out with this fleet of hidden sith and conquers the republic. Yteah, the have many sith as opposed to the two from the prequels, but they use military might like Palpatine did. Creating the clone wars, giving the republic an army of super soilders from a mandalorian, the one group that can kill jedi, and the droid armies. Now the droid army has those retarded juvenile quirks, but when you look deeper, the droids that have been created in the clone wars (looking at the whole EU) can do alot of things, fly, become invisible, fly crafts, fire torpedoes, man ships, have shields, even use the force through that eel stuff.
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Syntax Registered: Aug '01	Date Posted: 11/6 8:17pm Subject: Palpatine = Darth Bane?
	Arawn_Fenn posted: We don't ultimately know where he was really from, it doesn't have to be Naboo. Well sure, but the point remains - the guy we see in Episodes 1-3 wasn't a clone. He was, as Leland Chee says, a normal guy with a normal lifespan who falls in with the Sith. -----signature----- Lieutenant Colonel 9-LOM "Syntax" Corsair Squadron Commanding Officer CRS Vigilant - http://www.renegadewing.com/ "That's me, the life of the party" -- 9-LOM, 'One for the Money' "Flying is for droids" -- Obi-Wan Kenobi, 'Revenge of the Sith'
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