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Author	Topic: I would like to posit that Jacen did everything he did entirely on purpose - post-Abyss thoughts
Sinrebirth Title: Sith Emperor of the SWC Registered: Nov '04	Date Posted: 11/6 5:17pm Subject: I would like to posit that Jacen did everything he did entirely on purpose - post-Abyss thoughts - Date Edited: 11/6 5:17pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Sinrebirth
	And not in the obvious manner. Not in the way that Jacen accepted Lumiya's words and then proceeded to get himself killed. No, in the fact that Jacen knew about Luke sitting on the Dark Throne, as suggested in Abyss, and acted with complete calculation from The Joiner King onwards in regards to Ben, to Luke, to the Killiks, to Centerpoint and to Lumiya herself. As far as I can recall, every vision of the future in Star Wars has, by and large, came true. The context around them has often been misinterpreted, though. Anakin tries to stop Padme from dying in childbirth; she does because he's strangled her. Jacen tries to overcome his 'Stand Firm' vision; it happens anyway in TUF. Anakin Solo tries to stop the moment when Tahiri goes dark; it happens anyway, exactly as he saw, but he simply takes his lightsaber back from her and the vision is broken. Whie see's himself on Vjun, strangling Scout; it happens, and then it changes because of what happens afterward - but his choices make no difference as he still dies from Anakin Skywalker's blade, and it is still a surprise. And more in that vein, here. Even the vision from Rebirth happened; Luke saw Ben flying a strange ship, and Mara was not evident. This happened in LotF; where we assumed a Sekotan ship, we had a Sith Meditation Sphere. And Mara is dead, either way. Now, if we assume Jacen believed the vision of the Dark Throne, and had this knowledge of visions beforehand... Jacen isn't stupid. He might be foolish enough to try and take everything on to himself, but he has come to the conclusion that he can't physically stop the future from happening. In his own words, the Force is a flow. He knows how flow walking works by the point he goes to the Maw, knows he can't change the past, and the future congregates. So instead he decides to change the context of the vision. He collects techniques to sniff out darkness, to survive brutal engagements, and to dominate every other Jedi around him by skill set alone. He learns less from their cultures, and more about what they can teach him to do. He returns to the galaxy with this knowledge, and with this certainty that Luke will fall. He increases his influence over Ben, dramatically, further increasing it with Mara, as well. Then he sees Centerpoint, and sees that he might use it, if it was then and now. He can't see the Dark Man, because it is him. He accepts that when Lumiya tells him, because that is what he wants. He certainly doesn't want Luke to die - he wants to take that fate on to himself. Even if we can't imagine a situation where Luke would fall, and Jacen certainly creates one, when Jacen encounters Lumiya he's not being an idiot about it - he's accepting her because its more damage control. If its not him, she'll only sink her metal claws into someone else. He leans more and more on Vergere's teachings, because then everyone can more obviously blame her - if anyone works out what he's really doing, then his efforts could be ruined. And then when Lumiya suggests Vergere is a Sith, and other similarly ridiculous (for some) concepts, he embraces them because they are more ends to his means - more ways to make him into the Dark Man, and not Luke, because he can recognise that Lumiya is the a very dangerous woman who he nonetheless needs in order to become the Dark Man - he's agonising over his decision in Bloodlines because he doesn't want to become a Sith Lord, isn't sure if it is the way in which he can overcome this fate that is creeping up on Luke. He creates himself into an evil beyond evil, a dichotomy to Luke and indeed Ben which is designed not to kill them, but for him to be a mirror for them to look at and avoid like the plague. He's genuinely worried that he's seeing Luke on the throne of his Sith Empire in Invincible, and the Dynasty of Sith in Tempest can only make him think of Luke. Did he go for Centerpoint purposely, so the Jedi would destroy it? Did he get the Empire involved, knowing fully well about Daala in the Maw and her undoubted links to Pellaeon? Did he purposely agitate Pellaeon for that same reason? He's doing it all on purpose. He's already accepted he's going to die. He's just playing out a role, merging with time and fate so that he becomes the Dark Man, and not Luke. If we accept the saddening thought that Mara was going to die irregardless of Darth Caedus existing - as per Rebirth... and we accept that Luke was to become the Dark Man - and usher in a Dark Empire beyond even anything Krayt could create... Is he a manipulator on a scale of Darth Sidious? Is he as ambiguous as Vergere? Is he simply playing the role of Darth Caedus, like Kreia did before him? Thoughts? -----signature----- Darth Insipid Proud Fan of the Tragedy of Jacen Solo Missing Chapters of Invincible; Teaser of Chapter 9.5 is up! Wes vs Tarfang, Gavin and the Coup, Luke and Jacen, and much more! http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/28933751/p3/?70
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King_of_Red_Lions Registered: Mar '03	Date Posted: 11/6 5:41pm Subject: I would like to posit that Jacen did everything he did entirely on purpose - post-Abyss thoughts - Date Edited: 11/6 5:42pm (1 edits total) Edited By: King_of_Red_Lions
	Jacen becomes the Dark Man in Lumiya and Luke's visions but he doesn't become the one who sits on the Dark Throne. The future morphs to Allana on a bright throne surrounded by friends, etc. Jacen's actions changes the vision from Luke to Allana but never transplants himself in Luke's place. The problem with this attempt at a retcon is that we get inside Jacen's head during LOTF and we know exactly why he does what he does every step of the way. -----signature----- Who is John Galt?
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Darth-Ghost Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 11/6 5:44pm Subject: I would like to posit that Jacen did everything he did entirely on purpose - post-Abyss thoughts
	King_of_Red_Lions posted: The problem with this attempt at a retcon is that we get inside Jacen's head during LOTF and we know exactly why he does what he does every step of the way. Yet Jacen never even thinks of Allana in BETRAYAL... just saying.
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TKeira_Lea Registered: Oct '02	Date Posted: 11/6 5:47pm Subject: I would like to posit that Jacen did everything he did entirely on purpose - post-Abyss thoughts
	Just my two cents... posted: Jacen isn't stupid. I have trouble with the reasoning that Jacen isn't stupid, therefore he does smart things. Smart people do stupid things all the time, with amazing consistency sometimes. Seemingly stupid people do smart things. -----signature----- http://www.lominalecantina.com Do you ever talk to yourself? Worry when you answer back. current fanfic ~ Return to Bolis Island http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/29571370/p1/?19
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ChildOfWinds Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 11/6 7:26pm Subject: I would like to posit that Jacen did everything he did entirely on purpose - post-Abyss thoughts
	Darth-Ghost : Yet Jacen never even thinks of Allana in BETRAYAL... just saying. But Jacen ALSO never once thinks about Luke on a dark throne either. Even though we are "inside Jacen's head" throughout LotF, never once does Jacen say that he's becoming a Sith Lord to keep Luke from becoming a Sith Lord. He doesn't say this during the DN trilogy either. In Betrayal, Jacen thinks only about Luke dying, and that he must kill Nelani to keep Luke alive... not to keep Luke from becoming a dark man on the throne. Besides, what would cause Luke to fall and become a monster???? If he didn't become a Sith after Mara died, there doesn't seem to be anything that would drive him there. Actually, Jacen becoming a Sith was more likely to cause Luke to go bad than if Jacen hadn't become a Sith, I think. We've been talking about this in the SOS thread for a couple of weeks now. If the authors are truly going for this "Jacen became a Sith so Luke wouldn't become one" retcon, I feel it will make LotF an even worse story than it was before, and I didn't like it then. I also don't see how they can possibly make it work. There are just so many holes in it. The biggest one in my opinion is just exactly HOW is it possible for someone to change the reality of a vision? We know that some Jedi can manipulate the visions of other Jedi so they see something different. But we've never once seen a Jedi actually put himself/herself into the place of someone else that he/she saw in a vision. Why would Jacen even think that was possible? And why does everyone want to elevate Jacen at Luke's expense? Why would people prefer to make Luke look bad?
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marmkid Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 11/6 7:43pm Subject: I would like to posit that Jacen did everything he did entirely on purpose - post-Abyss thoughts
	i fail to see why that was the only way for Jacen to do things It still makes no sense If we are to believe Luke was definitely going to turn into the dark man on the throne, why are we supposed to believe a strong Jedi Master Jacen would not be able to help him if he knew this was coming? Why could Jacen not go to Luke with this vision and talk to him about it? He was arguably the 2nd strongest Jedi out there. Luke valued his opinion Why did Jacen so strongly believe this vision that did not even include how or why Luke fell? Why did he believe it blindly? I still havent heard a single reason why Jacen would resign himself to death It will be a complete rewrite to turn Jacen into this martyr
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Darth-Ghost Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 11/6 7:46pm Subject: I would like to posit that Jacen did everything he did entirely on purpose - post-Abyss thoughts - Date Edited: 11/6 7:52pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Darth-Ghost
	If Ben had fallen to the point he became irredeemable, would Luke join him or be forced to kill his own son? I could see either of those two paths pushing Luke to the dark side. Or maybe just Ben's death in general, may have been worse on Luke than Mara's death. But I do think Luke has now prepared himself to let go of Ben, if necessary, after what happened in the aftermath of Mara's death. But if Jacen hadn't sent Ben on the Sith mission, then Ben wouldn't have found Ship, and when Ben encoutnered Lumiya he would not be able to command Ship to stop her from attacking him, and Lumiya may have killed Ben. But this is speculation. marmkid, Jacen always saw himself as a martyr. I still believe Jacen could have prevented this vision without becoming a Sith, by really doing it the Jedi way and working with others, stop keeping secrets. He said he "tried" the Jedi way and it has failed, in BETRAYAL. That seemed mysterious to me then, but this vision puts that line in context. jacen had just forgotten that the Jedi way to do things is not working alone and putting the burden on yourself, but working with others. That's why he failed, it was not the Jedi way that failed.
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xx_Anakin_xx Registered: Jan '08	Date Posted: 11/6 7:54pm Subject: I would like to posit that Jacen did everything he did entirely on purpose - post-Abyss thoughts
	Sinrebirth posted: He's doing it all on purpose. He's already accepted he's going to die. He's just playing out a role, merging with time and fate so that he becomes the Dark Man, and not Luke. If we accept the saddening thought that Mara was going to die irregardless of Darth Caedus existing - as per Rebirth... and we accept that Luke was to become the Dark Man - and usher in a Dark Empire beyond even anything Krayt could create... Is he a manipulator on a scale of Darth Sidious? Is he as ambiguous as Vergere? Is he simply playing the role of Darth Caedus, like Kreia did before him? Thoughts? Well it would go at least some of the way toward explaining his zombie like turning on Nelani and killing her. Even having his silent POV didn't make his words and actions any less odd when he killed her. He seemed possessed and his galaxy falling/Luke dying future stream visions didn't justify his decision - not even from an any means standpoint and especially if at the same time he was working to "change" another vision. Why couldn't he just work to "change" his future stream visions too? It was like he was kinda nuts. -----signature----- I say we put together a 'kill squad' and assassinate Darth Krayt. Who's with me?
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marmkid Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 11/6 7:56pm Subject: I would like to posit that Jacen did everything he did entirely on purpose - post-Abyss thoughts
	Darth-Ghost posted: marmkid, Jacen always saw himself as a martyr. I know Jacen did I just didnt think all these readers actually believed it and thought it was true
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JediMatteus Registered: Sep '08	Date Posted: 11/6 8:02pm Subject: I would like to posit that Jacen did everything he did entirely on purpose - post-Abyss thoughts
	i can see as a Jacen fan how you would want this all rationalized. You did well to think all this through. You put time and effort into it. but it's not gonna happen. Luke will never fall. if he does, i don't think i can bear to read it. This to me will be the end of star wars. -----signature----- "Every generation has its challenges to face, its own battles to win. Why should yours be any different? Running away from your responsibilities won't solve anything." -Luke Skywalker
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Nobody145 Registered: Feb '07	Date Posted: 11/6 11:07pm Subject: I would like to posit that Jacen did everything he did entirely on purpose - post-Abyss thoughts
	I agree with most of marmkid's comments. We had plenty of Jacen POV chapters during LotF, and not one of them hinted at what FotJ looks like its building up to. But a little thing like canon is not going to stop a plot of such monumental stupidity, even if two of FotJ's authors just wrote more than half of LotF less than five years ago- its retcon time again! Not like NJO mattered that much once it was over in the novels, and I'd say ignoring or retconning LotF would be a good thing if the replacement story wasn't just as stupid (if not more so). Jacen saw himself as a martyr, and for most of LotF, everyone else saw him as a misguided fool. Though beginning with Invincible, and especially in Abyss, apparently they're now having all the other characters act like Jacen was a martyr too, which... makes no sense. Jaina in Invincible, Mara in Abyss, ugh. Regarding the original question of this thread- if I had to guess, I'd say that is what the authors of FotJ are aiming for, that Jacen saw something, to explain his tragically stupid reign as Darth Caedus. After reading LotF, my impression was that like many others before him, he thought the darkside wouldn't screw him up... and he was wrong, of course. Back in Betrayal, he chose to follow Lumiya to avoid killing Luke... but how often was that vision brought in the rest of the series, even in other Allston books? Worse yet, for once I agree with CoW (no offense, just usually I'm not quite the extreme Luke fan you are), but did Jacen really think that little of Luke, if and when we find out the rest of FotJ's story? Jacen killed Mara, so if anything, that would possibly be one of the few things that could push Luke close to the darkside- and it sorta did, or at least, left him so emotionally crippled he had to sit out the final battle. So that really goes against the whole "Jacen planned this somewhat". If anything, Jacen's reign was an example of things not to do- I'm still trying to figure how he got as far as he did the way he was acting, and the closest answer I can think of is that the average intelligence level of the GFFA is even lower than I had thought it was. I don't like this theory, no offense to the topic starter, but I have a sad feeling that's what we'll be stuck with at the conclusion of FotJ... until they retcon it in the next book series anyway. -----signature----- Don't mind me, I'm nobody important.
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xx_Anakin_xx Registered: Jan '08	Date Posted: 11/7 12:13am Subject: I would like to posit that Jacen did everything he did entirely on purpose - post-Abyss thoughts
	Jacen killed Mara, so if anything, that would possibly be one of the few things that could push Luke close to the darkside- and it sorta did, or at least, left him so emotionally crippled he had to sit out the final battle. So that really goes against the whole "Jacen planned this somewhat". If anything, Jacen's reign was an example of things not to do- Yeah but it wasn't like Jacen planned to kill Mara - she made it pretty clear it was his neck or hers, before they reached the caves, so I don't think you could use that to say it was part of Jacen's overall plan to keep Luke from going dark. I mean you could say he'd try not to kill her at all costs, but it wasn't like she was giving him any choice in the matter. I do think that LOTF was a mess in terms of congruency, but I'm not sure it is possible to retcon a perfect fit. I'm okay with the direction they are going; they had to do something after hacking up Jacen's character pretty bad - and other characters as well. They left us with too many questions and too many readers are proposing way too many alternative ideas relative to what the heck happened in LOTF. So good or bad, at least maybe there will be a kind of understanding by the end of FOTJ. -----signature----- I say we put together a 'kill squad' and assassinate Darth Krayt. Who's with me?
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marmkid Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 11/7 8:36am Subject: I would like to posit that Jacen did everything he did entirely on purpose - post-Abyss thoughts
	xx_Anakin_xx posted: Yeah but it wasn't like Jacen planned to kill Mara - she made it pretty clear it was his neck or hers, before they reached the caves, so I don't think you could use that to say it was part of Jacen's overall plan to keep Luke from going dark. I mean you could say he'd try not to kill her at all costs, but it wasn't like she was giving him any choice in the matter. all Jacen had to ever do at any point during all of this was tell Luke he had a vision of him falling to the dark side Why would he be afraid to tell Luke that? Luke wouldnt go nuts over it, and would take whatever steps were necessary Luke isnt an idiot and has had far more experience with the force and the dark side than Jacen Why wouldnt Jacen ever tell Mara during any of their discussions, um, i am doing this for your husband
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KnightDawg Registered: Nov '07	Date Posted: 11/7 9:29am Subject: I would like to posit that Jacen did everything he did entirely on purpose - post-Abyss thoughts
	marmkid posted: all Jacen had to ever do at any point during all of this was tell Luke he had a vision of him falling to the dark side Why would he be afraid to tell Luke that? Luke wouldnt go nuts over it, and would take whatever steps were necessary Luke isnt an idiot and has had far more experience with the force and the dark side than Jacen Why wouldnt Jacen ever tell Mara during any of their discussions, um, i am doing this for your husband Because who would read that? That wouldn't make for any type of compelling story. Everyone on here trying to justify "why he did" or "why he didn't" are only cheapening what the authors are doing....tell a story. Classic fan backlash simply because you care so much about something and you have a vision of what "should" happen and it doesn't work out that way. Let the authors do their thing and sit back and enjoy the show like good fanboys/fangirls, lol -----signature----- Mmmm...the Spring Jawa Juice smells yummy
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marmkid Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 11/7 12:42pm Subject: I would like to posit that Jacen did everything he did entirely on purpose - post-Abyss thoughts
	KnightDawg posted: marmkid posted: all Jacen had to ever do at any point during all of this was tell Luke he had a vision of him falling to the dark side Why would he be afraid to tell Luke that? Luke wouldnt go nuts over it, and would take whatever steps were necessary Luke isnt an idiot and has had far more experience with the force and the dark side than Jacen Why wouldnt Jacen ever tell Mara during any of their discussions, um, i am doing this for your husband Because who would read that? That wouldn't make for any type of compelling story. Everyone on here trying to justify "why he did" or "why he didn't" are only cheapening what the authors are doing....tell a story. Classic fan backlash simply because you care so much about something and you have a vision of what "should" happen and it doesn't work out that way. Let the authors do their thing and sit back and enjoy the show like good fanboys/fangirls, lol I'm sorry, are you kidding? "oh well i didnt tell you this a year ago, but there is a gigantic threat coming, i knew all about it but decided to say nothing" "oh by the way, i turned Sith because i thought it would save you from becoming a Sith" a compelling story should also include the charactors not being idiotic how is it compelling that after a 9 book series, we have to read another 9 book series that contradicts and changes the story? unless for some reason you think LotF was perfect, i dont see why you are here if you dont want to discuss the books It is the literature forum or should we all just post how appreciative we are that the authors have been able to write these incredibly coherent multi-author multi-book series with no rewrites at all? oh wait, they keep rewriting everything if you think an internet forum is cheapening the author's story, you must post that exact post a lot
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xx_Anakin_xx Registered: Jan '08	Date Posted: 11/7 1:02pm Subject: I would like to posit that Jacen did everything he did entirely on purpose - post-Abyss thoughts - Date Edited: 11/7 1:03pm (1 edits total) Edited By: xx_Anakin_xx
	marmkid posted: all Jacen had to ever do at any point during all of this was tell Luke he had a vision of him falling to the dark side Why would he be afraid to tell Luke that? Luke wouldnt go nuts over it, and would take whatever steps were necessary Luke isnt an idiot and has had far more experience with the force and the dark side than Jacen Why wouldnt Jacen ever tell Mara during any of their discussions, um, i am doing this for your husband Right - that is the principal question I would ask as well. Why was Jacen of the mind that he had to do it alone? What I have been thinking is that whatever entity or entities exist in the Maw - be they celestials or whatever - they may have adjusted Jacen's mind in some way because he discovered something that they did not wish for him to know. Remember Ben, as a very young and unknowing toddler, turned off the Force completely when he sensed them in the Force as a baby. So perhap intuitively, Ben understood some evil or darkness associated with them that Jacen too came to understand. Perhaps in stripping that knowledge from Jacen, they took a few extra brain cells - kidding, but more seriously, like perhaps they affected him in some way, although not to the extent they are now affecting the crazy Jedi. That would make some sense because there were controls in place before the destruction of centerpoint, etc., and all the alarms weren't going off and such when Jacen was there - so perhaps the celestials couldn't have as much of an impact on Jacen at that point. Maybe when Jacen remained in the grotto in order to see who was on the throne, the taking of that knowledge had the cost of 'time' for him, in that it gave the celestials more time to commune with him and take information from, and affect his mind? -----signature----- I say we put together a 'kill squad' and assassinate Darth Krayt. Who's with me?
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