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Author	Topic: The Emperor's Pawns article (was: Gamer #5 stuff @ TOS!!!)
The2ndQuest Title: Manager: -Literature -LACWAC -Games Registered: Jan '00	Date Posted: 4/17/05 10:30pm Subject: RE: The Emperor's Pawns article (was: Gamer #5 stuff @ TOS!!!) - Date Edited: 4/17/05 10:34pm (2 edits total) Edited By: The2ndQuest
	So far she's not shceduled to appear in a future book or comic, but she continues to make cameos in reference works such as the Emperor's Pawns and Dark Forces articles. I think it's her lack of use yet potential that intrigues fans so much- a former Imperial agent who betrayed the Rebellion, has a past history with Luke, has a past history with Kyle, was trained and cyborged by Vader, served the Emperor as an Emperor's Hand, given th title "Dark Lady of the Sith", is in possession of a Sith holocron, studied/trained/built her weapon on Ziost, had connections Isard, trained Carnor Jax (thsu implying she had a hand in destroying Palpatine's clones to solidfy her claim to the Sith), obtained Baffor (sp?) pollen and now apparently has a female vong as an apprentice after the NJO (i wonder if she used the pollen as a means to acquire said apprentice...), not to mention is basicly the most legitimate heir to the Sith one can find. All those juicy tidbits on her, and she's hardly used at all. It's sorta like how Boba Fett once was- the mystery is intriguing. -----signature----- "When your future self tells you to do something, YOU DO IT." K'Kruhk, 140 ABY:"Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker? Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..."
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Genghis12 Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Nov '99	Date Posted: 4/17/05 10:41pm Subject: RE: The Emperor's Pawns article (was: Gamer #5 stuff @ TOS!!!)
	Kreuzader... "Although I suppose we can't really call it an order unless it survives her" Well, with the post-Palpatine Sith Order she's got at least 50% of its membership filled, so I'm pretty sure it can be reasonably be called that without having to push any semantics beyond their breaking point. -----signature----- ========== Intelligently Fitting The newer EU into Established Star Wars Continuity (Or How About a No-Prize) http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=1111146 "Envy the nations that have heroes. Pity the ones that need them." -- Van Zan
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TwiLeksRokMySox Registered: Jan '04	Date Posted: 4/17/05 10:43pm Subject: RE: The Emperor's Pawns article (was: Gamer #5 stuff @ TOS!!!) - Date Edited: 4/17/05 10:46pm (2 edits total) Edited By: TwiLeksRokMySox
	Yes, idiocy is a good word for it, Genghis. -----signature----- Killin' threads ain't like dustin' crops, boy.. President of the Sio Bibble fan club But..this post was so artistically done. A good writer is only as good as his editor. The is no such thing as an EU...its all Star Wars.
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The2ndQuest Title: Manager: -Literature -LACWAC -Games Registered: Jan '00	Date Posted: 4/17/05 10:46pm Subject: RE: The Emperor's Pawns article (was: Gamer #5 stuff @ TOS!!!) - Date Edited: 4/17/05 10:47pm (1 edits total) Edited By: The2ndQuest
	Though, at her current rate (Flint, Carnor...), she won't have any apprentices to continue her order past her Here's hoping the Vongette lasts a little longer than the last few. -----signature----- "When your future self tells you to do something, YOU DO IT." K'Kruhk, 140 ABY:"Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker? Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..."
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Lord_Hydronium Title: Literature Gardener Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 4/17/05 10:48pm Subject: RE: The Emperor's Pawns article (was: Gamer #5 stuff @ TOS!!!) - Date Edited: 4/17/05 10:49pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Lord_Hydronium
	given the title "Dark Lady of the Sith" Is that title official? Because I believe both Traya and Zannah have been referred to as Sith Lords. -----signature----- Great midis have little midis Swimming round inside 'em And little midis have lesser midis And so ad infinitum.
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Kreuzader Registered: Apr '02	Date Posted: 4/17/05 10:54pm Subject: RE: The Emperor's Pawns article (was: Gamer #5 stuff @ TOS!!!) - Date Edited: 4/17/05 10:59pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Kreuzader
	Yep, the Dark Lady title is official, although LFL apparently no longer considers it equivalent to Darth Sidious/Vader's "Dark Lord of the Sith" title. Here's the thread at the OS boards where Leland Chee commented on it: http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa?threadID=210635&tstart=100 edit: and the page where he made the comment about her Sith status http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa?threadID=208759&start=75 She's not a Sith Lord, but she does know a thing or two about the Sith. I think it's semantics since the last Sith Lord is dead and the throne is open so to speak, but there we are. -----signature----- :wq
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Pelranius Registered: Apr '03	Date Posted: 4/17/05 11:12pm Subject: RE: The Emperor's Pawns article (was: Gamer #5 stuff @ TOS!!!)
	If Lumiya drops by Korriban and talks to the spirits, she probably could become a Dark Lady of the Sith (though whether or not she'd be in Bane's line is up for grabs) -----signature----- Fleet Junkie and Proud! Fics: Destiny's Inferno (TTT/DE AU) And the Skywalker Saga KOTOR Style Updated 7/24/06 see bio for details
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Thief Registered: Dec '01	Date Posted: 4/17/05 11:15pm Subject: RE: The Emperor's Pawns article (was: Gamer #5 stuff @ TOS!!!)
	Still at it, I see, eh, Genghis12? For once, you and I actually agree on something. I also would prefer that Lumiya continue to languish in the depths of obscurity. Frankly, I thought mentioning her connection to Carnor Jax in "The Emperor's Pawns" was a disservice to Jax's already weak character. I'll just point out again that she really wasn't the Galactic Emperor's greatest weapon – I hardly think an overambitious assassin who barely even served him can compare to Lord Vader or the grand admirals, who were actually useful. And to say that she's the best military leader the Empire has ever produced is simply silly; the fact that she did well at the Academy does not translate to actual operational ability – consider the example of Admiral Daala, for example. And I'll add my personal opinion that academic success isn't always a very good measure of actual ability. I've seen some hotshot officers that do well academically, and they're not always all that smart. By now you ought to know the routine. I'll point out that as far as the Sith Order is concerned, Lumiya is only a bastard Sith, not legitimate by any stretch of the imagination. She's as much a member of the Sith Order as Darth Bane was a member of the Sith Empire – i.e., not at all. I don't deny that she's a Sith Lady, because she quite obviously is. She's simply not a member of Bane's Order, which became extinct when Darth Sidious died without an Apprentice on Onderon. And I'll also point out that it's more likely that Jerec was Lord Sidious's next pick for Sith Apprentice if Luke Skywalker didn't work out as planned. Remember, the NEGC specifically says he wasn't a Sith Lord because Lord Vader already held that position. Considering that he was a fully trained Jedi Master (shades of the Count of Serenno), he'd be a lot more useful than a half-trained Emperor's Hand. Anyway, as with a few other characters -- Adalric Brandl, Kadann, Tremayne -- I think it's more effective to leave her be. Let her be the one that got away. There's nothing wrong with having a villain that escapes. Even Sherlock Holmes had his Irene Adler. -----signature----- Your GP or your HP!
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Mavrick889 Registered: Feb '99	Date Posted: 4/17/05 11:48pm Subject: RE: The Emperor's Pawns article (was: Gamer #5 stuff @ TOS!!!)
	I don't think Lumiya's a Sith Lord either. Her stance with Vader and Sidious is more akin to Asajj Ventress's stance with Dooku and Sidious. A tool of the Sith with delusions of grandeur. She's a terrific character, but she never achieved "Sith-hood..." at least not officially. ...then again, would any of the Sith Lords who restarted the order (Exar Kun, the fella from 2000 BBY etc etc) count as anything but bastard-Sith? It's sort of a difficult subject. -----signature----- http://blogs.starwars.com/clibretto2/ A Member of the Star Wars Fanboy Association. http://www.myuselessknowledge.com/swfa
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Tam_Elgrin Registered: May '04	Date Posted: 4/18/05 12:10am Subject: RE: The Emperor's Pawns article (was: Gamer #5 stuff @ TOS!!!)
	Wasn't there a direct comparison between Lumiya and Ventress in the Fact Files cards? The wording of Dooku's order to Ventress to kill Anakin was identical to Vader's orders to kill Luke, or something like that. -----signature----- hey, who turned out the lights?
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Thief Registered: Dec '01	Date Posted: 4/18/05 6:35am Subject: RE: The Emperor's Pawns article (was: Gamer #5 stuff @ TOS!!!)
	That's my point exactly. Darth Bane was no more a Sith Lord of the Sith Empire or the Brotherhood of the Sith than Nicholas II was a Roman Emperor. From the Imperial Sith or Fraternal Sith perspective, he and his successors were bastards. From the perspective of the Sith Order, they were perfectly legitimate. In the exact same sense, Lumiya is a bastard and illegitimate when viewed from the perspective of the Sith Order; she's perfectly legitimate a Sith Lady as long as you consider her by herself. I don't deny her Sith Lady status. She's simply not a member of the (now extinct) Sith Order. She's no more a Sith Lady of the Sith Order than George III was King of France. -----signature----- Your GP or your HP!
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nitflegal Registered: Oct '02	Date Posted: 4/18/05 6:49am Subject: RE: The Emperor's Pawns article (was: Gamer #5 stuff @ TOS!!!)
	<<Actually, Tasty said recently she's not officially a Sith Lord- though that doesn't rule out her being some kind of Sith, nor her believing she is the rightful heir to the Sith, and, as Abel pointed out in the other thread, you can't blame her for doing so as she's more or less in the same position Luke was when he declared himself a Jedi Master.>> I always thought that this aspect made her a more interesting counterpart to Luke, assuming that she is the head of the reconstructed Sith and he is the head of the reconstructed Jedi. Both are attempting to use their natural and exceptional gifts to put together a modern successor to a destroyed ancient lineage. Both are going to make mistakes, have huge gaps in their knowledge that they will need to fill, and will likely make something different than the destroyed previoud order. Both are working off of incomplete training, which allows them to branch in new directions. FI, does she need to keep to the rule of two? It makes for an interesting symmetry, when you think about it. Perhaps this is just the continuation of the true balancing of the force. Matt
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Kreuzader Registered: Apr '02	Date Posted: 4/18/05 9:36am Subject: RE: The Emperor's Pawns article (was: Gamer #5 stuff @ TOS!!!) - Date Edited: 4/18/05 10:00am (2 edits total) Edited By: Kreuzader
	Nope, she doesn't need to keep the rule of two, since that was an edict of Bane's; Palpatine was all but completely flouting it once he was all-powerful anyway. It would probably be a good idea for her to adhere to it though, since the entire point was to keep the Sith under the radar until they were in a position to spring their trap on the Republic again. -----signature----- :wq
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Leto II Registered: Jan '00	Date Posted: 4/18/05 10:32am Subject: RE: The Emperor's Pawns article (was: Gamer #5 stuff @ TOS!!!)
	That's my point exactly. Darth Bane was no more a Sith Lord of the Sith Empire or the Brotherhood of the Sith than Nicholas II was a Roman Emperor. From the Imperial Sith or Fraternal Sith perspective, he and his successors were bastards. From the perspective of the Sith Order, they were perfectly legitimate. In the exact same sense, Lumiya is a bastard and illegitimate when viewed from the perspective of the Sith Order; she's perfectly legitimate a Sith Lady as long as you consider her by herself. I don't deny her Sith Lady status. She's simply not a member of the (now extinct) Sith Order. She's no more a Sith Lady of the Sith Order than George III was King of France. Although it's been established that the Brotherhood of Darkness was not the only bona fide central order out there by the time of Ruusan -- Darth Rivan was a Sith Lord, but his domain was elsewhere, off in the Cularin Expansion zones. That said, when one considers the original, 24,500 BSW4 Sith order founded out of the Jedi schism...none of those guys were essentially "legitimate," themselves renegade fugitives who got lucky and chanced on a group of darkside-using aliens. The second order was the same thing -- renegade Jedi kickstarts it based off a few teachings, which then gave way to Bane's order; itself largely as authentic as the 2,000 BSW4 Jedi's group, owing to Bane's direct standing as a true Sith. So the line of attainment amongst that whole group -- First Order, Second Order, and Third Order -- is nothing more than a bastardized continuity of rogue lords two-fisting what power they could for themselves; Marka Ragnos's bunch was neither more or less genuine than Darth Bane's, with Lumiya hanging somewheres in the middle of it all. Nope, she doesn't need to keep the rule of two, since that was an edit of Bane's; Palpatine was all but completely flouting it once he was all-powerful anyway. It would probably be a good idea for her to adhere to it though, since the entire point was to keep the Sith under the radar until they were in a position to spring their trap on the Republic again. Only after Luke had re-established the Jedi Order following an interregnum of decades, though. When Palpatine reached his zenith, he suddenly had a mandate to bring back the ancient Sith liturgies, since there was no longer a Republic nor Jedi to conceal the Sith from. His order's prime objective had gotten fulfilled, and him resuscitating the notion of multiple simultaneous Dark Lords would've certainly been an attractive one. Once Vader and Sidious were dead, however, it was time for Lumiya to slink back into the shadows, as her masters had done. -----signature----- "If there's one thing I hate, it's losing. If there's TWO things I hate, it's losing and getting cancer." - Kenny Powers
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Halagad_Ventor Title: - Star Wars Author - SWRPG Designer Registered: Jul '01	Date Posted: 4/19/05 4:27pm Subject: RE: The Emperor's Pawns article (was: Gamer #5 stuff @ TOS!!!)
	The2ndQuest wrote: “I know this has been asked before, but where do Sarcev and Jeng originate from anyways?” Though Sarcev is named for the first time in the Gamer #5 article, he originally appeared in Adventure Journal #15, in a source article on the planet Tasariq. Jeng also first appeared in an AJ piece called the Kaal Connection, though the particular issue number escapes me. Visually, however, he was dove tailed with the darksider that tells the Reborn Emperor that it would be dangerous to go planetside in Empire’s End #2. Genghis12 wrote: “In what could be a "beware of what you wish for" situation, I would rather everyone just leave her character alone than to mess up the character.” I mostly agree Genghis, which is why I wrote that she was taking a Banesque approach to things. Tam_Elgrin wrote: “Wasn't there a direct comparison between Lumiya and Ventress in the Fact Files cards? The wording of Dooku's order to Ventress to kill Anakin was identical to Vader's orders to kill Luke, or something like that.” Yeah, that “elimination of Anakin Skywalker, actual or effectual” echo for the Count Dooku cards was my doing, and more than intentional. However, I would point out one significant difference between Ventress and Lumiya: Ventress got whooped by Anakin, while Lumiya cleaned Luke’s clock. nitflegal wrote: “I always thought that this aspect made her a more interesting counterpart to Luke, assuming that she is the head of the reconstructed Sith and he is the head of the reconstructed Jedi. Both are attempting to use their natural and exceptional gifts to put together a modern successor to a destroyed ancient lineage.” Nicely put Matt. Creating that parallel between them was a very conscious effort. Leto II wrote: “So the line of attainment amongst that whole group -- First Order, Second Order, and Third Order -- is nothing more than a bastardized continuity of rogue lords two-fisting what power they could for themselves; Marka Ragnos's bunch was neither more or less genuine than Darth Bane's, with Lumiya hanging somewheres in the middle of it all.” Also well put. Like race purism arguments, claims to legitimacy of the above kind are often definitionally self-sabotaged from the get-go. Of course, it would take a particular lack of ego not characteristic to a Sith to see that. Take care, Abel -----signature----- Abel G. Peña: http://www.abelgpena.com Star Wars Blog: http://blogs.starwars.com/abelgpena Facebook Profile: http://www.facebook.com/abelgpena Second Prophet of the Church of Waru Recipient of a monstrosity known as a Mandalorian Ewok™
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