Author Topic: The Emperor's Pawns article (was: Gamer #5 stuff @ TOS!!!)
Citizen_Chauvelin 
Registered: Sep '02
6135_Count Dooku
Date Posted: 6/5/05 7:50pm Subject: RE: The Emperor's Pawns article (was: Gamer #5 stuff @ TOS!!!)
Can all these groups be different and independent? Certainly, but no author has ever treated them as such or is likely to, because the differences in these esoteric groups are simply too nuanced, and honestly, nearly negligible. For the sake of convenience, I must admit I have chosen to ignore these delicate distinctions, and chalk up the differences to the whims of these opportunists at different time periods. The Emperor’s Pawns article combines the Emperor’s/Imperial (Interim) Inner/Ruling Circle/Council into a single entity under the Sarcev Quest entry.


The problem then arises, however, that this creates an incorrect impression of continuity where none exists. You yourself rejected the identification of the Emperor's Ruling Circle with the Emperor's Inner Circle and the Imperial Ruling Council:

Cracken's Threat Dossier states that the ERC had been formed only since the defeat at Endor, thus rejecting the theory that the "Emperor's Inner Circle" is but another name for the Ruling Circle, since the former existed prior to Endor. Furthermore, the DESB also refers to an “Imperial Ruling Council” and it is described as having several Dark Side Adept members, but again, despite the similarity in name to the ERC, reference to it is pre-Endor, and thus, it seems the Imperial Ruling Council cannot be the same group as the Emperor’s Ruling Council. However, since Palpatine’s Dark Side Adepts -- who make up part of the Imperial Ruling Council -- are (forcibly) loyal to him, and the Emperor’s Inner Circle was described as the group closest to Palpatine, and both of these organizations are associated with the same work (Dark Empire), and both are said or shown to have failed to take control of the Empire upon the Emperor’s death, it is highly likely that these two are related, if not the same.


Admittedly the two pre-Endor parties – the Imperial Ruling Council and the Emperor's Ruling Circle – are closely related, and confusion of the one for the other is perfectly understandable as the Ruling Council is quite probably the official mouthpiece of the Inner Circle (as supposed by this author in "All the Emperor's Men"), and it is even possible that some members of the Inner Circle/Ruling Council subsequently became members of the Emperor's Ruling Circle. An author who confuses these three commits no great error, as he or she blurs only slightly the distinctions between them (although it is an anachronism in much the same fashion that a few sources seem to imply the existence of the Central Committee of Grand Moffs prior to the Battle of Endor). There is, however, substantial difficulty introduced by the inaccurate and imprecise conflation with the Interim Ruling Council.

As Lord Jax himself put it in Crimson Empire, his conspiracy against the Galactic Emperor was with "those whose appetites for power were left unfulfilled while the Emperor was alive – the members of the current Ruling Council"; this very strongly suggests that the members of the Jax conspiracy were at best second- or third-rate figures in the Imperial State, not first-rate grandees like the Imperial privy counsellors and courtiers of the Emperor's Ruling Circle; indeed, the Emperor's Ruling Circle was "led in force by the loathsome Ars Dangor" according to Cracken's Threat Dossier, and the Death Star Technical Companion says of Dangor that "only his admiration for the Emperor keeps his own ambitions in check" and that "he is content to forever serve – something that not even Lord Vader can truly admit to." Clearly one cannot rightly identify Lord Jax's conspirators with Dangor's coalition, as Dangor does not at all satisfy Lord Jax's qualification.

Similarly, one cannot identify the Emperor's Inner Circle with the Interim Ruling Council, as the Inner Council is said to consist of "the ministers and governors closest to the Emperor at the time of the Battle of Endor," similarly failing to meet Lord Jax's definition of figures chafing in their places. Kuat of Kuat regarded himself as "perhaps the most powerful beyond Emperor Palpatine's inner circle" in The Mandalorian Armor. If the Emperor's Ruling Circle is distinct and different from the Emperor's Inner Circle and the Imperial Ruling Council – as you yourself pointed out – then how can one identify Lord Jax's conspiracy with all three? Of all the members of Lord Jax's conspiracy, only Sarcev Quest, Burr Nolyds, and Mahd Windcaller appear to have been in a position to influence any real measure of power in the Imperial State before the Galactic Emperor's final death, and – if the author may be permitted the conceit of quoting himself – the composition of Lord Jax's implies a very weak Empire rather than a collection of powerful interests:

The known composition of the Interim Council reflects the Empire's condition at that time. Norym Kim's power points to a serious weakness in the central government, as one of the Imperial Navy's raisons d'être was the eradication of piracy; given the known conditions of the galaxy throughout the post-Endor period, it is likely that he controlled one of the nominally Imperial regions of space in the Mid-Rim Region, near the Borderlands. Banjeer, Jeratai, and Immodet point to the triumph of Isardian stratocracy and the final collapse of the old doctrine of strict civilian control of the military, as they no longer report to the civilian-controlled bureaucracy or the Privy Council, but have a direct voice at the highest level of government, their continuing command of operational forces notwithstanding. Tan Starpyre's inclusion suggests timid steps toward liberalization, possibly to alleviate the effectiveness of Neo-Republican propaganda (notably, The Essential Chronology points out that the inclusion of Lord Manos, Ch'unkk, Kooloota-Fyf and the Prince Za was hoped to "give new life to the dying Imperial military" via "alien strength"). The influence of Lord Manos points to a breakdown in the Empire's traditional laissez-faire attitude toward labor relations, and suggests that the traditional alliance between the Empire and corporate leaders might have broken down. Much as the Mining Guild's dictation of trade policy is indicative of an astonishing collapse of the Empire's own industrial resources and its firm control of its corporate associates, the influence of the Lord d'Asta and the Prince Za points to an ironic relapse to the conditions of the Galactic Republic before the Naboo Crisis that prompted Senator Palpatine's election as Supreme Chancellor: private entities holding a de facto monopoly on shipping and trade routes that effectively neutered the state's power to regulate commerce and gave the monopolists the ability to directly and substantially influence state policy. This marks a complete reversal of the Imperial tradition of the boardroom being a junior partner to the throne room. It is especially interesting to note the shift in ideological composition; few if any of these Interim Councilmen have any clear political identity. The Interim Council resembles a technocratic government, and it is remarkable in itself that COMPNOR, the totalitarian wing of the monarchist party, is not represented at all.


You have yourself shown that detail and precision are no great obstacle to entertaining or informative writing. Can it truly be so difficult to take the time to substitute the word "Interim" for "Ruling"? Consider for example the extremely obscure "Tan" references in "The Emperor's Pawns" and Crimson Empire II: Council of Blood - they neither detract from the medium nor cost the author any great effort. Is it truly unreasonable to ask even that modicum of effort when dealing with the Circles and Councils, be they Inner or Ruling or Interim, Emperor's or Imperial?

 

-----signature-----
They seek him here, they seek him there, those Frenchies seek him everywhere.
Is he in Heaven? Or is he in Hell? That damned elusive Pimpernel?
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Pelranius  6495 posts
Registered: Apr '03
6497_Kir Kanos
Date Posted: 6/6/05 9:07am Subject: RE: The Emperor's Pawns article (was: Gamer #5 stuff @ TOS!!!)
I suppose the Ruling Council, Ruling Circle, and Inner Circle would be of roughly the same size as Jax's Interim Council (and with possibly composed of the usual Advisors and the odd Grand Moff and Grand Admiral?)

 

-----signature-----
Fleet Junkie and Proud!
Fics: Destiny's Inferno (TTT/DE AU)
And the Skywalker Saga KOTOR Style
Updated 7/24/06 see bio for details
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Rogue_Follower  8555 posts
Title: Manager:
• Lit

Registered: Nov '03
6468_Blackhole
Date Posted: 6/6/05 12:18pm Subject: RE: The Emperor's Pawns article (was: Gamer #5 stuff @ TOS!!!)
[i]>>Consider for example the extremely obscure "Tan" references in "The Emperor's Pawns" and Crimson Empire II: Council of Blood - they neither detract from the medium nor cost the author any great effort.

 

Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Ris_jSarek  2555 posts
Registered: Feb '05
18187_Z-95 Headhunter
Date Posted: 6/6/05 3:05pm Subject: RE: The Emperor's Pawns article (was: Gamer #5 stuff @ TOS!!!)
Abel discusses this in this interview:

"Hmm…perhaps you refer to the fact that Anakin Skywalker was referred to as “Tan Skywalker” in the early Russ Manning newspaper comic strips of the late 70s. Pablo Hidalgo and I tried to reference that continuity error obliquely, in the “Emperor’s Pawns” article for Gamer #5. Because Maarek Stele, one of the characters in the article, was strangely referred to as “Tan Stele” on the back flap of the Official TIE Fighter Strategy Guide, we stated in the Gamer article that Tan was a title or rank, similar to Baron (as in Baron Soontir Fel) given to starfighter aces. By extension, then, Anakin Skywalker probably earned the rank of Tan at some point, possibly during the Clone Wars."

 

-----signature-----
http://churchofbrad.com/jsarek/
Proud recipient of Halagad_Ventor's MOO (Master of Obscurity) Award, Brett_Bass's Spiffy Crown™, and Thrawn McEwok's "Ohh...? Interesting..." Award™
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Rogue_Follower  8555 posts
Title: Manager:
• Lit

Registered: Nov '03
6468_Blackhole
Date Posted: 6/6/05 3:12pm Subject: RE: The Emperor's Pawns article (was: Gamer #5 stuff @ TOS!!!)
Thanks.

cool

 

Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Halagad_Ventor  1278 posts
Title:
- Star Wars Author
- SWRPG Designer

Registered: Jul '01
41556_Halagad Ventor
Date Posted: 6/6/05 3:50pm Subject: RE: The Emperor's Pawns article (was: Gamer #5 stuff @ TOS!!!)
Thanks for that jSarek. Actually, Anakin and the Tan issue will be discussed briefly in my contributions to the upcoming Vader: The Definitive Guide. happy

Take care,
Abel

 

-----signature-----
Abel G. Peña: http://www.abelgpena.com
Star Wars Blog: http://blogs.starwars.com/abelgpena
Facebook Profile: http://www.facebook.com/abelgpena
Second Prophet of the Church of Waru
Recipient of a monstrosity known as a Mandalorian Ewok™
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Sturm Antilles  11676 posts
Title: Former Manager
Registered: Jun '00
13910_Anakin and Padme
Date Posted: 6/6/05 6:50pm Subject: RE: The Emperor's Pawns article (was: Gamer #5 stuff @ TOS!!!)
Are we speaking of Tan Skywalker? I recall that mentioned in the old Early Years Classic Star Wars strip.

I always figured that Tan was what Owen and Beru told Luke his father's name was, or something along those lines. Like an alias. Or maybe what Ben put into the "Galactic Registry" for Luke's parentage for some Tatooine census or somethin'.

 

-----signature-----
"You're the most compliant rebel I've ever met." - jaya02
Currently reading : About seven different novels at once.
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Rogue_Follower  8555 posts
Title: Manager:
• Lit

Registered: Nov '03
6468_Blackhole
Date Posted: 6/6/05 6:55pm Subject: RE: The Emperor's Pawns article (was: Gamer #5 stuff @ TOS!!!)
I'm sure Skywalker was Tan after all of those years on Tatooine. wink

 

Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
TalonCard  7502 posts
Title:
•Author: Slave Pits of Lorrd
•TFN EU Staff

Registered: Jan '01
6036_Pit Droid
Date Posted: 6/6/05 8:58pm Subject: RE: The Emperor's Pawns article (was: Gamer #5 stuff @ TOS!!!)
When does the Vader magazine come out? I'm looking forward to it!

TC

 

-----signature-----
Death in the Slave Pits: http://www.starwars.com/hyperspace/fiction/feature20090531/index.html
GODV Guide: www.myuselessknowledge.com/swfa/main.html
Hyperspace Blog: http://blogs.starwars.com/taloncard
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
The2ndQuest  40223 posts
Title: Manager:
-Literature
-LACWAC
-Games

Registered: Jan '00
49624_H234: Samus
Date Posted: 6/6/05 9:05pm Subject: RE: The Emperor's Pawns article (was: Gamer #5 stuff @ TOS!!!)
Tan Skywalker= the last time someone tried to give Vader a joking nickname after Mustafar.

 

-----signature-----
"When your future self tells you to do something, YOU DO IT."
K'Kruhk, 140 ABY:"Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker?
Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..."
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Pelranius  6495 posts
Registered: Apr '03
6497_Kir Kanos
Date Posted: 6/7/05 8:03am Subject: RE: The Emperor's Pawns article (was: Gamer #5 stuff @ TOS!!!)
Well, so why was Soontir Fel made Baron instead of Tan (unless he also had the honorific as well)?

 

-----signature-----
Fleet Junkie and Proud!
Fics: Destiny's Inferno (TTT/DE AU)
And the Skywalker Saga KOTOR Style
Updated 7/24/06 see bio for details
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Rogue_Follower  8555 posts
Title: Manager:
• Lit

Registered: Nov '03
6468_Blackhole
Date Posted: 6/7/05 8:12am Subject: RE: The Emperor's Pawns article (was: Gamer #5 stuff @ TOS!!!)
Perhaps Tan is reserved for Force users, while Baron is a general military title.

 

Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Citizen_Chauvelin 
Registered: Sep '02
6135_Count Dooku
Date Posted: 6/7/05 6:33pm Subject: RE: The Emperor's Pawns article (was: Gamer #5 stuff @ TOS!!!)
"Baron" is not a military title, it is a title of honor and nobility. It was formerly the practice in many European countries to reward a loyal or successful servant by the grant of such a title (e.g., Bernard Law Montgomery was created Viscount Montgomery of Alamein in 1946). It is possible that "Tan" is the Star Wars equivalent to a knighthood, as it seems to follow the Continental usage of that title; certainly "Tan" is not reserved to those sensitive to the Force, as Tan Starpyre gives no indication of any kind that he is sensitive to the Force in Crimson Empire II: Council of Blood.

 

-----signature-----
They seek him here, they seek him there, those Frenchies seek him everywhere.
Is he in Heaven? Or is he in Hell? That damned elusive Pimpernel?
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Pelranius  6495 posts
Registered: Apr '03
6497_Kir Kanos
Date Posted: 6/8/05 4:26am Subject: RE: The Emperor's Pawns article (was: Gamer #5 stuff @ TOS!!!)
Is it also analogous to "Von"?

If Fel was made a noble, but since he never used "Tan", that assumes that "Tan" is granted seperately from Imperial noble titles. (unless he was actually called Baron Soontir Tan Fel in any circumstances I'm not aware of)

 

-----signature-----
Fleet Junkie and Proud!
Fics: Destiny's Inferno (TTT/DE AU)
And the Skywalker Saga KOTOR Style
Updated 7/24/06 see bio for details
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Citizen_Chauvelin 
Registered: Sep '02
6135_Count Dooku
Date Posted: 6/8/05 1:19pm Subject: RE: The Emperor's Pawns article (was: Gamer #5 stuff @ TOS!!!)
Is it also analogous to "Von"?


Neither "Baron" nor "Tan" is analogous to "von" or "zu," as both are simply particules that usually indicate nobility but do not form substantive titles in and of themselves (cf. "de" in France during the ancien régime). The Lord d'Asta's name implies the French-style particule "de," while the occasional reference to Garm Bel Iblis as Iblis implies that "Bel" may be a Corellian particule.

If Fel was made a noble, but since he never used "Tan", that assumes that "Tan" is granted seperately from Imperial noble titles. (unless he was actually called Baron Soontir Tan Fel in any circumstances I'm not aware of)


There is no reason to believe that "Tan" is granted concurrently with any other title of nobility, as none of the three known "Tans" have borne any such other title. At any rate even if the Lord Fel were also Tan Fel, he would not be referred to as such, as a barony takes precedence before a knighthood (hence, one speaks of the Lord Nelson of the Nile or the Lady Thatcher of Kestevan rather than Sir Horatio Nelson and Dame Margaret Thatcher). Certainly a knighthood is a separate grant from a barony (or any other noble rank, for that matter), and there are a great many knights and dames who are not peers.

As to why Maarek Stele was given the title of "Tan" and Soontir Fel was given the title of "Baron," it is possible that the Imperial State awards knighthoods for valor in combat (hence Tan Stele), and peerages for particularly distinguished leadership (hence Baron Fel). It should also be noted that Tan Stele was decorated with the Emperor's Will, the highest military award granted by the Imperial State, and there is no indication that the Lord Fel ever received that decoration. It is quite possible that a knighthood and the Emperor's Will is regarded as a greater honor than a barony alone.

 

-----signature-----
They seek him here, they seek him there, those Frenchies seek him everywhere.
Is he in Heaven? Or is he in Hell? That damned elusive Pimpernel?
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History