| Author |
Topic:
Results so far...
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Kadue
Registered:
Jun '00
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Date Posted:
10/6/02 9:20am
Subject:
Results so far...
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Okay, it's been about two weeks since Gandy started this experiment, with me tagging along to help and watch. At the time of posting this, we have 100 users in here to discuss the issues and vote, which while not the entire Lit forum, it's still a rather representative cross-section. So it's time to start collating the data, and look at what changes might need to be instituted to help the continuing improvement of the Literature forum.
Polls
We've got two polls on this issue that canvas the range of options that we have. Firstly it seems that the majority of opinion is that there isn't a need for a separate forum for Lit/EU polls, and that we can just keep them in Lit and/or the EUC. This is very doable since it requires us to do nothing in terms of altering current policy, and is easy in terms of moderating.
The second question was whether we should allow polls at all in Lit, and the issue here is divided pretty much 50-50. So what should the solution here be from this data?
Again, it looks like we keep with the status quo. A lot of people on both sides of this issue have raised the issue of some polls being redundant, or just spam in nature. A large portion of those that have voted in favour of polls put the caveat that if they get out of hand, we shut them down again for a period of time.
Are there any complaints to allowing polls, but when they get too spammish or improperly used, we shut them down for a pre-determined period of 2 months before allowing them again? Of course, with this, we'd post some guidelines on the proper use of polls and how to avoid them being suspended for a time amongst the guidelines of the forum.
Non-Star Wars books and literature
Again, a topic that is close to being evenly divided on by the forum members. Some of the arguements for allowing some off-topic threads include the lag and lack of good discussion in between the releases; wanting to discuss things with people that you know, in an atmosphere that fosters healthy discussion on this type of thing; and because some of the discussion that takes place is looking at how things relate to, compare and contrast with the SW books. Arguements against include that we already have specific forums for this discussion (the Amphitheatre and Authors and Artists forums); worry about some of these threads drowning out the rest of the Lit threads; and that Lit is for discussion of SW only.
So, how about this for a compromise:- If someone just wishes to flat out discuss a book that is not part of the EU, they are redirected to the Amphitheatre to discuss it
- If someone wishes to talk about other works by writers of SW books, we redirect them to the A&A forum's specific thread about that author, or create a new thread if we don't already have that author listed.
- If, though, they wish to discuss how something relates or compares to an existing EU book, we allow it, if the discussion is focussed on this. If what is the point of discussion is how the themes of say Dune mirror those we are seeing in some NJO books about the hero's journey, and how while the paths of Jacen and Jaina are similar to that of Paul Attredis in that they are taking on the roles of another religion to bring about a resolution to their respective conflicts, Jaina only does so to confuse the issue in any battle that involves her, while Jacen seems to be heading down the same path as Paul did, and embracing some of the religious aspects to bring about a resolution, while at the same time maybe losing some of those things that define him as what is seen as a true Jedi.
Is this a fair middle ground? If you wish to discuss something in relation to the EU in terms of themes, characterisations, morality and messages of stories, and the like, then you can do so in Lit, since that is where discussion of EU takes place. If you want to discuss EU author's non-SW work, A&A is the place. If it's any book, Amphitheatre is where to go. Again, this is something we'd explicitly outline in a general guidelines thread, with links to and explanations of both forums for their respective discussion areas.
Moderator only creation of "Official" threads
Well, there seems to be a pretty strong majority on moderator "control" of the creation, with about 65% saying threads need moderator approval, and about 25% saying that only moderators should. As for what the middle ground could be in this instance, I think that Jades Fire has actually got the best of the ideas:
Offical discussion threads about a new book that has been released should be a sticky topic, created by a moderator who gets the first two posts (first two posts are identical, the first gets deleted later). It should be created ... before the official release date or when the first sample chapter is released ... It should be left stuck at the top for 6 weeks, then the first post can be deleted.
All discussion topics about a book prior to its release should be labeled SPECULATION threads, not discussion threads. What are we discussing about Force Heretic 1 and The Unifying Force? The book summary? The whole topic is speculation. I think SPECULATION about the book should be separated from DISCUSSION of the actual contents of the book. Speculation threads don't have to be sticky threads. I know many people like to speculation, I just think we should label them as such.
In this case, any thread that is not created by a moderator would be a "Speculation" thread, and when they first pop up, and get going with some steam, a moderator can change the name to "The 'Official' ______ Speculation thread", with subsequent threads created for speculation about that books being redirected to that thread. This thread would obviously have to be labelled as spoiler-ish, but since there are people that would like to speculate without some of the spoilers that appear, there may be ways around this, although I'll cover that kind of thing in the section about spoilers.
Then, about a month before the release of the book (or the summary release date), one of the managers will create a sticky thread for the "'Official' Discussion of _____", with the second post also belonging to the manager for removal of sticky-ness later on. This would be the thread that all discussion of the actual book, the scenes, characterisations, progression of the storyline, would be conducted in, and the one linked to by both TFN, and us in the header around the time of release. After about a month or two (possibly easily linked to the spoiler deadline to make things nice and easy), the thread is un-stickied, and left to it's own devices.
Any major objections or problems with this kind of approach?
Post count celebration threads
Well, there is no majority at all with this, as the highest percentage is only 45% for one option given. So what should we do? By extrapolating the results, there seems to be about a 70-80% majority of people that wouldn't mind 10,000 post parties being allowed. There was also the issue of building a sense of community with these kinds of threads, and that's something that I can see as a point. Many of those we've had previously do become small chat/fun threads for the short time that they are up, and it isn't a totally bad thing for a little socialisation to occur every now and then.
So, I think that we can say that there isn't a problem with allowing 10k parties.
And while this wasn't all that popular overall, we could also allow 5k parties, with caveats. First, is that they would be locked after 2 days. They aren't always a big milestone for some people, but they are for others, so 2 days isn't a bad deal. Also, you'd have to have a large portion of posts in Lit. I don't want to set a definite mark, as it is hard to say what a fair point would be. But it's easy to notice whether someone is a "Lit regular". The third caveat would be one that also applies for all parties, and that is that you can't have a celebration thread in another forum, like JCC or EUC.
Moderator promotion guidelines
Well, it definitely seems that a lot of people would like a say in helping to decide on new moderators for the forum. But since this is an issue that affects the entirety of the boards, the decision on whether this can happen is not ours alone to make, and thus for the moment things will stay the same until there is a board-wide policy and procedure.
But rest assured, if we do come up with a workable way, all of us are willing to use Lit as a testing ground, both because we want you all involved, and we think that there is no other forum that would participate in this better than you guys would. 
Spoiler period length
In terms of vocal opinion in the thread, it seems a lot of people wish for a 2 month limit on spoilers. But when looking at the percentages, more people wish for the one month limit. Both have their advantages and disadvantages, which have been gone over in the poll.
So for now, it looks to be that we will keep the one month limit on spoilers. While I know personally that there are problems for those living outside the US (for those that don't already know, I'm Aussie, and a hard-case on spoilers), but we do have to weigh everything. Most of the time the books come out about 2 weeks after the US release, so there is still some time leeway. For those that don't, it gets closer to 2 months, which means that the books are released pretty much as the limit would drop if it was 2 months. Also, after the last couple of books, we've seen that people start to get restless by that one month period already. But even then, when the ban is dropped, there isn't a flood of threads that will spoil the books. Yes, it does get harder to avoid spoilers, and you can't avoid people dropping them in unrelated threads, but some people still are considerate enough to give some warning. If we make a point of saying that it would be nice if people would be considerate enough to continue posting warning up until we can confirm major region releases, we can at least cut down on possible problems.
As for reform of the spoiler policy, and making things clearer, that will happen. I knew when writing the original guidelines that there would be gaps, and tried to get enough opinions to cover that, but we still missed some. Things that will need to be looked at and clarified include titling of threads, the co-operation with TFN Books on releasing certain major spoilers, and the issue of 'spoiler space' that has been used for a long time, yet recently has been .... abused for lack of a better word. This last bit ties in with what I was saying earlier in relation to speculation threads, but since this is already long enough, I'll start fresh on this in a new thread for brainstorming.
So that is everything so far. These outlines and possible guidelines have been written only by myself so far, and have not been through consultation with the other Lit mods yet. There is some reasoning behind this. You might have noticed that there hasn't been much said from me of my opinions on these issues in their relevant threads, and the reason being is to try and keep myself as impartial so that it is easier to find the middle ground when writing and resolving this. But before any of this becomes concrete, you guys will get a chance for review (ie this thread), and then the 4 of us mods will go through everything once more before decide on a final direction.
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JADES_FIRE
Registered:
Dec '01
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Date Posted:
10/6/02 9:47am
Subject:
RE: Results so far...
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Sounds good so far Kadue, thanks for the update. 
Any word on when the new mod will be announced 
Edit: Kadue - When you "unstick" a thread do you lose the 1st post or the 2nd post
Because if you lose the 1st post wouldn't everything that you have written be lost
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As long as I can remember, I've always had memories.  The only thing I'm certain about, is that I'm not certain about anything.
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dp4m
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
10/6/02 10:09am
Subject:
RE: Results so far...
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So, how about this for a compromise:
- If someone just wishes to flat out discuss a book that is not part of the EU, they are redirected to the Amphitheatre to discuss it
- If someone wishes to talk about other works by writers of SW books, we redirect them to the A&A forum's specific thread about that author, or create a new thread if we don't already have that author listed.
- If, though, they wish to discuss how something relates or compares to an existing EU book, we allow it, if the discussion is focussed on this. If what is the point of discussion is how the themes of say Dune mirror those we are seeing in some NJO books about the hero's journey, and how while the paths of Jacen and Jaina are similar to that of Paul Attredis in that they are taking on the roles of another religion to bring about a resolution to their respective conflicts, Jaina only does so to confuse the issue in any battle that involves her, while Jacen seems to be heading down the same path as Paul did, and embracing some of the religious aspects to bring about a resolution, while at the same time maybe losing some of those things that define him as what is seen as a true Jedi.
This sounds PERFECT! Thanks, Kadue...
-----signature-----
"Looks like you're about to get pwned" - Eric Cartman
"Awarding experience points for cleverly and creatively generating an enjoyable experience. How warped is that?" - Darths & Droids
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chissdude10
Registered:
Jul '01
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Date Posted:
10/6/02 10:46am
Subject:
RE: Results so far...
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Thanks for the update Kadue.
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Mastadge
Title:
Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '99
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Date Posted:
10/6/02 12:11pm
Subject:
RE: Results so far...
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Are there any complaints to allowing polls, but when they get too spammish or improperly used, we shut them down for a pre-determined period of 2 months before allowing them again?
Yes. The problem is, the worst of the poll-spamming occurs immediately after polls have been turned back on.
If someone just wishes to flat out discuss a book that is not part of the EU, they are redirected to the Amphitheatre to discuss it
The thing is, the amphitheatre just doesn't get the traffic that lit does. It might get the same volume, but how many of those people actually care about reading SFF? If I'm promoting/discussing a SFF book, there's a MUCH better target demographic, and a much better chance someone else has read it, in Lit than there is in AMP.
Other than that, things look pretty good.
-----signature-----
"This will be our reply to violence:
To make music more intensely,
More beautifully,
More devotedly than ever before."
- Leonard Bernstein
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Gandalf the Grey
Registered:
May '00
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Date Posted:
10/6/02 6:06pm
Subject:
RE: Results so far...
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When we unstick a thread, we copy everything from the first post into the second post with our moderator edit abilities, and then delete the first post. It’s the first post that has the sticky quality.
Any word on when the new mod will be announced
The invitation has been sent. We’re currently waiting on the candidates response.
-----signature-----
I play far, far too much World of Warcraft.
L70s on Staghelm: Hopefire (Paladin), Silverbow (Hunter), Shadowhope (Rogue), Silverfire (Mage)
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Mastadge
Title:
Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '99
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Date Posted:
10/6/02 6:22pm
Subject:
RE: Results so far...
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And what a doozy it will be if the response is positive.
But what if it's negative? Will we be without a new mod? Will we still be free to spam to our hearts' content?
-----signature-----
"This will be our reply to violence:
To make music more intensely,
More beautifully,
More devotedly than ever before."
- Leonard Bernstein
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wampa
Registered:
Jul '98
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Date Posted:
10/6/02 8:15pm
Subject:
RE: Results so far...
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Looks good so far.
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sith1137
Registered:
Dec '01
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Date Posted:
10/6/02 8:41pm
Subject:
RE: Results so far...
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thanks for the update Kadue. much appreciated. looks good so far.
-----signature-----
I've got a fever and the only perscription is more cowbell
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind
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JADES_FIRE
Registered:
Dec '01
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Date Posted:
10/6/02 9:40pm
Subject:
RE: Results so far...
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And what a doozy it will be if the response is positive.
Do you know something that we don't Mas 
Also, how do you guys cut and paste what someone else has posted I've tried and can't get it to work. 
When I'm posting a reply, I click on to review the topic and try to cut and paste the question onto the post I'm writing. (Is this the right way to do it? )
-----signature-----
As long as I can remember, I've always had memories. The only thing I'm certain about, is that I'm not certain about anything.
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Gandalf the Grey
Registered:
May '00
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Date Posted:
10/7/02 3:41am
Subject:
RE: Results so far...
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We mods have the ability to see exactly what someone has posted, down to the UBB codes and smilies in their original state. We just cut and paste that into our posts if we want to copy something large scale.
But normally, we just highlight, copy, paste, just like everyone else.
-----signature-----
I play far, far too much World of Warcraft.
L70s on Staghelm: Hopefire (Paladin), Silverbow (Hunter), Shadowhope (Rogue), Silverfire (Mage)
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J_K_DART
Registered:
Dec '01
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Date Posted:
10/7/02 4:59am
Subject:
RE: Results so far...
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I like 'em, gang! Thumbs-up from the dynamically dizzy Dart lol!
Seriously, tho', I agree with almost all that's been said, except I do see Mastadge's point - more of the ppl in Lit are readers than in Amph, so opening a Lit topic is wiser for Lit than for Amph (does that make sense?)
Um, what I'm trying to say is, if you're wanting to create a topic on a book you like, Lit is probably the place I'd imagine it'd get the best reception... Now, I *do* think we need to keep an eye on them not getting too many, but I also think the ppl here love SW far more than any other literature, and I really don't think it'd be a problem...
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"Sir master of the long post" - Excellence
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Kadue
Registered:
Jun '00
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Date Posted:
10/7/02 5:58am
Subject:
RE: Results so far...
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Are there any complaints to allowing polls, but when they get too spammish or improperly used, we shut them down for a pre-determined period of 2 months before allowing them again?
Yes. The problem is, the worst of the poll-spamming occurs immediately after polls have been turned back on.
Well, then polls won't be around all that much.
Seriously, yes for the first couple of days, polls do get rather bad. But we always weather through that, and at the moment, the issue of polls is at the best point I've ever seen it. There aren't that many new ones getting started, and there aren't that many that get locked.
If someone just wishes to flat out discuss a book that is not part of the EU, they are redirected to the Amphitheatre to discuss it
The thing is, the amphitheatre just doesn't get the traffic that lit does. It might get the same volume, but how many of those people actually care about reading SFF? If I'm promoting/discussing a SFF book, there's a MUCH better target demographic, and a much better chance someone else has read it, in Lit than there is in AMP.
That is true Mas, but the fact is that we have to have a line in the sand somewhere. I personally would love to just discuss books with the rest of Lit, since you guys are the ones I know best, and have already an appreciation for good/bad writing. Yet we do have a place for discussion of general literature, and that is the Amphitheatre. I know at the moment that the atmosphere isn't what it could be for great discussion of books, especially SF/F ones, but again, we have to draw lines. I have no problem in linking to a specific thread for SF/F discussion in the Amph so Lit forumers can easily head there.
But remember, there was pretty much 50% of people that said they don't want OT threads at all in Lit, so we have to find some common ground, and make concessions on both sides. I hope that people can see that this is something workable for the moment, and maybe if we can do things right and be sensible about it all, we might even up the requirement from being related to the EU, to being SF/F sometime in the future.
Do you know something that we don't Mas
It seems he does, and if I find the person who is leaking, I'm going to be locking them in a forum with our train troll friend after stripping them of their mod powers. 
Also, how do you guys cut and paste what someone else has posted I've tried and can't get it to work.
When I'm posting a reply, I click on to review the topic and try to cut and paste the question onto the post I'm writing. (Is this the right way to do it? )
Yep, what you're doing is the easiest and most common way.
Although as Gandy said, moderators can go in and grab the exact text that was typed into a post, which is what I mostly do (since it's 2 mouse-clicks, and saves time). That is what I'll do when unsticking this thread, just transfer the text from the first post to the next.
As I've said, I welcome everyone's input on this stuff. It's your forum, and we are trying this as a way to get everyone really involved in helping to decide how things go, which includes having a say all the way through this.
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Mastadge
Title:
Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '99
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Date Posted:
10/7/02 6:32am
Subject:
RE: Results so far...
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Do you know something that we don't Mas
It seems he does, and if I find the person who is leaking, I'm going to be locking them in a forum with our train troll friend after stripping them of their mod powers.
Two things:
1) Have I said anything to even imply that I know anything? Aren't I allowed to pretend I'm in the know, even if I'm not? It's good for my ego to have people thinking I know things that they don't.
and if I find the person who is leaking, I'm going to be locking them in a forum with our train troll friend after stripping them of their mod powers
2) "A" person leaking is not a "them," it's either a "he" or a "she." In this case, if there has been a leak, which I'm neither confirming nor denying, it's obviously a he, considering the gender of all our lit mods.
-----signature-----
"This will be our reply to violence:
To make music more intensely,
More beautifully,
More devotedly than ever before."
- Leonard Bernstein
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Kadue
Registered:
Jun '00
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Date Posted:
10/7/02 6:46am
Subject:
RE: Results so far...
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Details details. Stop taking the fun out of being evil. 
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Mastadge
Title:
Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '99
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Date Posted:
10/7/02 6:51am
Subject:
RE: Results so far...
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Well then, stop taking the fun out of being a know-it-all wise-ass. 
-----signature-----
"This will be our reply to violence:
To make music more intensely,
More beautifully,
More devotedly than ever before."
- Leonard Bernstein
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