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The Official Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice Discussion Thread
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Darth_Lex
Registered:
Nov '02
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Date Posted:
4/11/07 1:01pm
Subject:
RE: The Official Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice Discussion Thread
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ARC-77 posted:
Darth_Lex posted:
Thrawn McEwok posted:
And you've forgotten another character who, if memory serves, had a couple of small POV scenes in Bloodlines: Jaina. 
Actually, no. All her scenes are either Han, Luke, or Jacen POV. 
I think the scene where Jacen, Zekk, and Jaina are flying above Corellia is from Jaina's POV. Might have been Jacen's, but I dont think so.
If you mean the scene when they are enforcing the blockade line and get into the firefight with the freighter, that is Jacen's POV. We learn Jaina's feelings on the incident later, when she tells them to her uncle - in a Luke POV scene.
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Lord-DarthMerrick
Registered:
Jul '03
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Date Posted:
4/11/07 3:32pm
Subject:
RE: The Official Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice Discussion Thread
- Date Edited:
4/11/07 3:36pm (4 edits total)
Edited By:
Lord-DarthMerrick
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Darth-Ghost posted:
I'm pretty sure the sacrifice will be Luke or Mara. I kind of want the authors to be strong and do Luke, but if they kill off Mara then we might get something we haven't seen in a while: a real brother-sister relationship between Luke and Leia. She is the reason Luke almost went to the Dark Side in ROTJ, and the reason he came back in Dark Empire. I want to see them as a brother-sister team before they eventually die, and it hasn't happened yet in LOTF.
I think your right on. The sacrifice will be Mara or Luke. The audio excerpt is definitely towards the end of the book. So either Luke is dead and Mara is on her way to confront Lumyia (Inferno) or Luke was injured and Mara is on her way to confront Lumyia. Then she will be killed by Jacen when he sees Mara about to kill Lumyia. Similar to how his grandfather turned by slicing Mace's hand off. Leia would be devestated if Han had died to this point and even talks about getting Alema to come out of hiding again. Here is the big spoiler: Why is Luke not with Mara? The two are insperable and go on nearly every mission together! Why is Mara trying to get at Lumyia? Surely Luke wouldn't want her to do that alone.
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Thrawn McEwok
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
May '00
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Date Posted:
4/11/07 3:43pm
Subject:
RE: The Official Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice Discussion Thread
- Date Edited:
4/11/07 3:59pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Thrawn McEwok
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Darth_Lex posted:
That's right!  It starts in Ben's POV, then switches to Jacen when he talks to Lumiya. So that's three confirmed.
 I'm right occasionally. 
Darth_Lex posted:
Or Leia. Maybe Karen wrote the husbands in Bloodlines and the wives in Sacrifice.
That could work... 
Darth_Lex posted:
Actually, no. All her scenes are either Han, Luke, or Jacen POV.
That's true, too... I checked all the scenes I thought were Jaina POV in Bloodlines, and they were Luke or Jacen.
Now this surprised me, because I thought there were scenes from Mara's POV - maybe there were, but if there weren't, I'm starting to think that maybe we really haven't seen her real POV of Jacen (and perhaps some other things as well), after all...
Fichu-Sorrenessi posted:
I'm not sure that anyone has mentioned this or not but hasn't Luke already foreseen Mara's death in Betrayal. This is the strongest evidence yet of who will be the "sacrifice" in Sacrifice. The only other compelling thing that I see is Luke being in the death spot. Its really odd to me that he be there if he is not the one to die.
Technically, Luke only saw Mara "butchered" - you could read her as being alive, but in much the condition that Vader was left on Mustafar...
younghansolo posted:
There is a massive difference between Leia saying "we have no time for our sorrows" so that she can get on with saving everyone's lives and her telling a joke to Mara after her husband has just doed. I am certain that if Luke is the sacrifice this sample takes place before it not after it. Leia would know luke were dead and she would not be joking with mara.
I'm not so sure. Just like at Yavin, they're focused here on the mission at hand - staying one step ahead of the bad guys until they can take them out. In that sort of scenario, they can clamp down on their emotions. And they can also make grim, quiet jokes, especially to other people in the same situation.
Of course, I don't think that this proves the idea that this scene occurs after Luke's death - all I'm saying is that it doesn't seem to contradict that.
Though it's odd that Mara doesn't say anything to Leia like "Luke says hi, by the way".... 
obiwanws2 posted:
a lot of this evidence is pretty convicting, but i seem to remember something like a back cover talking about inferno i think that made it seem like Luke lived.
This was said by Lucasfilm to be unofficial. I suspect that it may have actually been accurate, but it's not really a secure source to base speculation on...
obiwanws2 posted:
Also do you think the Luke is really an acceptable sacrifice for Jacen? Its not like Jacen really holds him in high regard anymore or cares deeply for him. No, i think that the sacrifice will be closer. My bet is Leia or Han. Mara seems like she might be a possibility but i don't think there is enough emotion between the two characters.
In Betrayal, Jacen murdered a Jedi Knight - and pretty much decided to become a Sith - because he believed that he would kill Luke if he didn't, and he couldn't bear that idea.
It would make twisted sense if Jacen then decided that to affirm his Sith identity, and liberate himself from his own past as Jacen Solo, he should kill Luke...
corranhornr99 posted:
I know this has probably been said before, but I think the "Sacrifice" will be something that will really let us down. I am a HUGE Star Wars fan and have read every book, and will continue to do so. I really think the "Sacrifice" will be Jacen's name. Even though he is currently denying it, the thing he loves the most is himself. He will sacrifice his name and reputation and become Darth ???. The Darth Who contest and this book have become so overhyped, so we are bound to be dissapointed.
To be completely honest, I kind of hope that I am right. I don't want to see Luke, Leia, Han, Jaina, Mara or Ben get killed. I don't care about Tenel Ka, but I've never got the feeling that Jacen even loves her that much to be his sacrifice.
Well, that's my two cents.
Interesting POV. We've been pointed towards Jacen's fall to the Dark Side/accession as a Sith Lord from Betrayal onwards, and it certainly seems like Lucasfilm are presenting it as the main thrust of the series.
I'm not entirely sure that this is a big enough idea to carry a nine-book series - as I said right back in my review of Betrayal: "The twist – if it’s really a twist – seems to have a limited number of potential outcomes: this may be a dangerously slender piece of plot-architecture to carry so much of the storyline forward for the next three years."
On the other hand... I hope that we might be surprised by a bigger twist - it could be that this theme has perhaps just been misdirection all along...
Lord-DarthMerrick posted:
I think your right on. The sacrifice will be Mara or Luke. The audio excerpt is definitely towards the end of the book. So either Luke is dead and Mara is on her way to confront Lumyia (Inferno) or Luke was injured and Mara is on her way to confront Lumyia. Then she will be killed by Jacen when he sees Mara about to kill Lumyia. Similar to how his grandfather turned by slicing Mace's hand off. Leia would be devestated if Han had died to this point and even talks about getting Alema to come out of hiding again. Here is the big spoiler: Why is Luke not with Mara? The two are insperable and go on nearly every mission together! Why is Mara trying to get at Lumyia? Surely Luke wouldn't want her to do that alone.
You're absolutely right on that last point - Mara hasn't been on a truly solo mission like this since... oh, the early chapters of Vision of the Future, I think; and whatever her reason for taking an XJ7, rather than Jade Shadow, it's not the simple one of taking an attack fighter for added combat capabilities against Lumiya - that's just an excuse she considers giving to Jacen...
Of course, Mara might kill Jacen... 
- The Imperial Ewok
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Darth_Hydra
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May '01
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Date Posted:
4/11/07 4:30pm
Subject:
RE: The Official Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice Discussion Thread
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It seems as if there's a growing number of fans who think that Jacen won't actually sacrifice somebody in this book. That would be the biggest cop out and seriously piss me off. Thankfully I have a Gift Card that I've been saving to buy Sacrifice with. After four books of build up it'd better be worth the wait.
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RebelGrrl
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Jan '06
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Date Posted:
4/11/07 5:25pm
Subject:
RE: The Official Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice Discussion Thread
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Lord-DarthMerrick posted:
(...) Luke was injured and Mara is on her way to confront Lumyia. (...)
Luke being seriously injured by Lumiya occurs already in Tempest, so I don't see that having a bearing on the time placement of this excerpt. Mara already has that motivation without Luke being injured a second time.
Lord-DarthMerrick posted:
Here is the big spoiler: Why is Luke not with Mara? The two are insperable and go on nearly every mission together! Why is Mara trying to get at Lumyia? Surely Luke wouldn't want her to do that alone.
Maybe Traviss is going back to Old-School Mara who did go off and do what she thought needed doing without asking Luke's leave. 'Protecting my family' Mara sounds like a scary thing to me, and she's in the pseudo-Hand-mode we first see her in, in every work prior to Union. She's out to protect Luke and Ben, and Force help what gets in her way. Lumiya is perceived as the key threat, and it's her Mara's got in her sights, and without Luke there, Mara doesn't have to quibble about Luke's ethics so much and can be a bit more bloodthirsty to get the job done. Of course Luke wouldn't want her doing this alone, but Luke doesn't always get what Luke wants.
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Cletus1901
Registered:
Apr '07
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Date Posted:
4/12/07 1:49am
Subject:
RE: The Official Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice Discussion Thread
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Was mace Anakin's sacrifice? or was it the Jedi in General. Everything he'd worked his whole life for, sacrificed to attempt to save his wife. Going into the temple and slaying what had essentially been his family since he left Tatooine? It's kind of hard to pinpoint where his sacrifice was, but I'm thinking it was his loyalty to the Jedi, since Palpatine named him after he betrayed Master Windu.
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beccatoria
Title: 181st Imperial Discussion Group host
Registered:
Dec '06
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Date Posted:
4/12/07 4:28am
Subject:
RE: The Official Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice Discussion Thread
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RebelGrrl posted:
Maybe Traviss is going back to Old-School Mara who did go off and do what she thought needed doing without asking Luke's leave. 'Protecting my family' Mara sounds like a scary thing to me, and she's in the pseudo-Hand-mode we first see her in, in every work prior to Union. She's out to protect Luke and Ben, and Force help what gets in her way. Lumiya is perceived as the key threat, and it's her Mara's got in her sights, and without Luke there, Mara doesn't have to quibble about Luke's ethics so much and can be a bit more bloodthirsty to get the job done. Of course Luke wouldn't want her doing this alone, but Luke doesn't always get what Luke wants.
That was the first thing that popped into my head when I read the excerpt. And yes, the idea is very scary.
If she does die (as I sadly suspect) at least she'll go down fighting and doing what she does best instead of being joined to Luke at the hip as she usually is. Which makes me feel somewhat better about the whole thing.
On the other hand, it means that she'll fail at her final mission which is a little sad... *snuffle*
Cletus1901 posted:
Was mace Anakin's sacrifice? or was it the Jedi in General. Everything he'd worked his whole life for, sacrificed to attempt to save his wife. Going into the temple and slaying what had essentially been his family since he left Tatooine? It's kind of hard to pinpoint where his sacrifice was, but I'm thinking it was his loyalty to the Jedi, since Palpatine named him after he betrayed Master Windu.
I don't think that Vader ever made a sacrifice in the specific terms Lumiya's talking about. Certainly killing Mace and the subsequent slaughter of the Jedi proved his loyalties enough for Palpatine to name him Lord Vader. But I think that in Jacen's mind (and Lumiya's) his ultimate sacrifice was Padme and his children. While (the film claims) he may not literally have been responsible for her death, he certainly reached a point where he was capable of it when he was choking her; he also believed he'd killed her so psychologically the effect was the same.
That was him destroying the thing he loved most - because he loved her more than the Jedi which was the whole problem.
Which also makes me think that Luke would be a worthy sacrifice. Even if Jacen doesn't love him more than anything else (at the moment I think that place goes to Tenel Ka and Allana), it would have a nice resonance with Vader sacrificing the reason he turned in the first place, and now Jacen doing the same - since it was fear he'd kill Luke that made him kill Nelani.
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Grey1
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Nov '00
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Date Posted:
4/12/07 5:44am
Subject:
RE: The Official Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice Discussion Thread
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beccatoria posted:
RebelGrrl posted:
Maybe Traviss is going back to Old-School Mara who did go off and do what she thought needed doing without asking Luke's leave. 'Protecting my family' Mara sounds like a scary thing to me, and she's in the pseudo-Hand-mode we first see her in, in every work prior to Union. She's out to protect Luke and Ben, and Force help what gets in her way. Lumiya is perceived as the key threat, and it's her Mara's got in her sights, and without Luke there, Mara doesn't have to quibble about Luke's ethics so much and can be a bit more bloodthirsty to get the job done. Of course Luke wouldn't want her doing this alone, but Luke doesn't always get what Luke wants.
That was the first thing that popped into my head when I read the excerpt. And yes, the idea is very scary.
If she does die (as I sadly suspect) at least she'll go down fighting and doing what she does best instead of being joined to Luke at the hip as she usually is. Which makes me feel somewhat better about the whole thing.
On the other hand, it means that she'll fail at her final mission which is a little sad... *snuffle*
This is what I suspect, too - Mara decides to go alone in order to assure that she'll be killed. Err. You know what I mean.
Really, it seems just like the plot construct that would be included in the novel - something that made snese, but not enough sense to really make the readers happy (like Anakin Solo dying on a mission to kill a beast that should, if you think about it, easily be re-created by the Vong).
It's also partly a character reboot, which is the most simple way of appeasing character fans. And finally, people who buy the novel with "the chick from the Thrawn books", they might want exactly the chick from the Thrawn books.
beccatoria posted:
Cletus1901 posted:
Was mace Anakin's sacrifice? or was it the Jedi in General. Everything he'd worked his whole life for, sacrificed to attempt to save his wife. Going into the temple and slaying what had essentially been his family since he left Tatooine? It's kind of hard to pinpoint where his sacrifice was, but I'm thinking it was his loyalty to the Jedi, since Palpatine named him after he betrayed Master Windu.
I don't think that Vader ever made a sacrifice in the specific terms Lumiya's talking about. Certainly killing Mace and the subsequent slaughter of the Jedi proved his loyalties enough for Palpatine to name him Lord Vader. But I think that in Jacen's mind (and Lumiya's) his ultimate sacrifice was Padme and his children. While (the film claims) he may not literally have been responsible for her death, he certainly reached a point where he was capable of it when he was choking her; he also believed he'd killed her so psychologically the effect was the same.
That was him destroying the thing he loved most - because he loved her more than the Jedi which was the whole problem.
Which also makes me think that Luke would be a worthy sacrifice. Even if Jacen doesn't love him more than anything else (at the moment I think that place goes to Tenel Ka and Allana), it would have a nice resonance with Vader sacrificing the reason he turned in the first place, and now Jacen doing the same - since it was fear he'd kill Luke that made him kill Nelani.
The theory behind all this is that Lumiya is somehow a "truer" Sith than Palpatine and Vader. Because a "true Sith" (yeah I know know, the term already exists in another context...) would really sacrifice anything and rule as a conduct of the Force, keeping his personal emotions in check without denying them - more or less accepting negative outcomes, not unlike Jedi who accept the way of the world without emotions.
Lumiya thus somehow presents a mixture of Sith and Jedi that is essentially good (which is why Jacen falls for it). But while attachment isn't forbidden for Lumiya's Sith, total attachment is. And this is why a Sith must prove to her that he can let go of everything that's dear of him if he must - and the best proof is sacrificing the thing you love most, for this will be the heradest step. After that, you won't be bogged down by emotions, if you let them rule. So, in this mindset, Jacen's sacrifice would need to be Tenel Ka and Allana. Even if he kills Luke, he'd still be holding back something that he would never sacrifice for the greater good. If he killed Allana, Luke wouldn't be a problem for him - because Jacen had already given away his heart.
Now, Lumiya isn't entirely honest when creating the war, and she's also lying to Jacen in other places. Plus, we already see Jacen being corrupted by his dictatorial power, so it might not be too farfetched if he sealed his allegiance with a "fake sacrifice", still keeping what he loves most - which would show that there is no "ideal Sith way".
Palpatine and Vader, for that matter, are completely outside of this theory. Vader "sacrifices" the Jedi Order to seal his allegiance to the Sith - but it's not meant to show that he could sacrifice all he loves, but simply to show which side he is on and the he no second thoughts on acting evil. The same applies for Dooku, who proves his allegiance by killing his best Jedi friend Sifo-Dyas. Which also isn't the kind of sacrifice Lumiya is talking about. So there's truly no way of comparing Lumiya's school with what we see in the movies.
And what about Darth Maul? He was raised in the Sith mindset - he couldn't possible sacrifice anything, for he didn't know anything else.
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Jacen had learned that one can meet the Universe [...] with fear, or with hatred, or with despair.
Or one can choose to meet it with love.
Jacen had chosen.
But still, he was astonished to discover that the Universe could love him back.
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beccatoria
Title: 181st Imperial Discussion Group host
Registered:
Dec '06
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Date Posted:
4/12/07 6:15am
Subject:
RE: The Official Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice Discussion Thread
- Date Edited:
4/12/07 6:18am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
beccatoria
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Mara's death is the one that currently makes the most narrative sense, even though, perhaps uncharitably, I feel that's the case because she's the most important one they can kill without either being vetoed by Lucas or putting the franchise in danger as opposed to it being a purely internally logical development. Also, it would least threaten the status quo.
And certainly those external pressures that may have given rise to the decision could be transformed into a compelling and moving story within the LOTF series.
But one thing I haven't worked out yet is - if Mara is killed by Jacen as his sacrifice - how they'll overcome the fact that Jacen isn't that close to Mara.
Things that immediately spring to mind: it's the fallout of killing her that constitutes his sacrifice or he's making a "hollow sacrifice" - doing as little as he can to get the Sith Secret Goodies.
To be honest - to me, and I admit that I'm probably more touchy on the subject as a Mara fan - both of those feel like they're skirting very close to the external universe reasons she's "safe" to kill and wouldn't be particularly emotionally satisfying.
I guess what I'm saying is, if Mara bites the big one in this book - quite aside from hoping that she goes down fighting! - I hope they either have a plot twist I hadn't thought of, or they don't try to pass her off as Jacen's sacrifice; just one of his victims.
Odd to want her "minimised" like that, perhaps. But I'd rather that than her death being bigged up as something hugely important when the most obvious trait of her death might well end up being that she was the "safe choice" both in and out of universe.
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RebelGrrl
Registered:
Jan '06
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Date Posted:
4/12/07 6:35am
Subject:
RE: The Official Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice Discussion Thread
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I think we need to look at Jacen's sacrifice as what it truly is: a test of loyalty.
Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader's test of loyalty was in Chancellor Palpatine's office, when Mace Windu was about to finish Darth Sidious. It ultimately doesn't matter exactly what Anakin was sacrificing with that act, because he proved his loyalty to Darth Sidious and the Sith. But what Anakin actually sacrificed was his dream of being Jedi, a dream he'd held since he was a child, of being the best Jedi ever. Saving Palpatine/Sidious ended that.
Looking towards the future, Darth Talon's killing of her Sith Master was a test of loyalty to Darth Krayt, and a sacrifice.
Both Krayt and Palpatine were looking for loyalty to them, personally, but they are also both aware that the lessons of history state they will be betrayed. That's part of the paradox of the Sith. Lumiya is also well aware Jacen has and will betray her, but he still must commit an act of loyalty to the Sith.
Mara is going after Lumiya. Lumiya and Mara know each other, and no doubt Lumiya is expecting such an act from Mara. Further, I'll speculate that Lumiya is working to make sure that Mara finds her... and finds her where Jacen will come upon their battle. Jacen will have a choice... does he save his aunt and kill the one person that he feels holds the answers he needs to bring peace to the galaxy for once and all, or does he save Lumiya, and bring untold pain to his beloved uncle and quite probably the conflict he had endeavored to avoid so many months ago by killing Nelani Dinn?
The business with Jacen naming himself can also be explained by Lumiya's continuous lie that she isn't a real Sith. Not being so in what she's told Jacen, she will tell him to name himself.
We get Jacen exactly on his grandfather's path. Jacen thought his grandfather fell for a selfish reason, the love of a woman, but Jacen is falling for a reason made impossible by his very fall, a peaceful galaxy for those he loves. It's really the same thing. Mara becomes Jacen's Mace Windu, not a true sacrifice in the fact of the person, but a true sacrifice in the fact of what that person represents.
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Vong_Killer
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Aug '01
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Date Posted:
4/12/07 7:23am
Subject:
RE: The Official Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice Discussion Thread
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I think one of the most important issues here is being overlooked. In the audio excerpt from Sacrafice we discover that Mara is going to "finish what Luke started" giving the listener the impression that Luke is incapacitated, unable to get rid of Lumiya on his own.
Why would Luke not beable to finish Lumiya off?
Is Luke dead? Possibly, unlikely because of the Bossman Lucas' wants but crucial (IMO) to making this series successful. But what if Luke just gives up?
Luke and Lumiya's interaction in Exile is important, the emphasis is there. So what will be the consequences of this action? I'm willing to bet that Luke gives up, flat out stops persuing Lumiya, no longer able to understand what is evil about the dark lady, leaving Mara to pick up the trail.
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RebelGrrl
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Jan '06
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Date Posted:
4/12/07 8:56am
Subject:
RE: The Official Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice Discussion Thread
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Finishing what Luke started is way too ambiguous. This could mean anything from Luke and Lumiya's encounters in the Marvel comics all the way to their duel in Tempest without anything having happened to Luke at all prior to this audio excerpt.
I am not inclined to take it as any evidence that another Luke/Lumiya incident occurred earlier in Sacrifice. I am more inclined to think that Mara is taking matters into her own hand to hunt down Lumiya and finish her off. If Luke went after Lumiya or if Luke went with Mara, he'd get too tied up in redeeming Lumiya, especially after that handshake in Exile. The old-school Mara we see in this excerpt has no patience for redemption, and it certainly would be a wasted effort on Lumiya. She needs to do this apart from Luke in order to do it at all. He'd get in her way.
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ARC-77
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Mar '06
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Date Posted:
4/12/07 11:07am
Subject:
RE: The Official Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice Discussion Thread
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Darth_Lex posted:
ARC-77 posted:
Darth_Lex posted:
[quote=Thrawn McEwok]And you've forgotten another character who, if memory serves, had a couple of small POV scenes in Bloodlines: Jaina.
Actually, no. All her scenes are either Han, Luke, or Jacen POV.
I think the scene where Jacen, Zekk, and Jaina are flying above Corellia is from Jaina's POV. Might have been Jacen's, but I dont think so.
If you mean the scene when they are enforcing the blockade line and get into the firefight with the freighter, that is Jacen's POV. We learn Jaina's feelings on the incident later, when she tells them to her uncle - in a Luke POV scene. [/quote]
Thanks, that was the only scene I thought could have been Jaina's POV, but I didn't have my copy of Bloodlines to check.
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LordVader66
Registered:
Aug '05
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Date Posted:
4/12/07 1:19pm
Subject:
RE: The Official Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice Discussion Thread
- Date Edited:
4/12/07 1:20pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
LordVader66
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My friend knows an individual that works at Del Rey. Recently, he has been trying to get him to reveal the what happen in Sacrafice. All this person will say is that someone DOES DIE. But would not get into specifics. The only clue given (exact quote):
"A hint was dropped in a different comic publication about three or four months ago"
I assume this means Dark Horse Comics, though I have never read a single SW comic. Therefore, I am asking my follow posters if anyone is familar with what the quote is referencing. I have to believe that Luke walking around as a Force Ghost in Legacy is to obvious, but perhaps a random piece of dialogue that will shed some light on this. And yes, this appears to be real info. I am not making this up. My friend has also provided me with info on Force Unleashed so I trust this info as well.
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Rouge77
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May '05
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Date Posted:
4/12/07 1:28pm
Subject:
RE: The Official Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice Discussion Thread
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A hint?  Force Ghost Luke appearing in Legacy was more than a hint...  Oh, poor Luke!  And I was so sure after the audio excerpt that it would be Mara who dies... 
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Kill Ben Skywalker
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