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The Official Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice Discussion Thread
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Darth_Hydra
Registered:
May '01
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Date Posted:
4/12/07 4:20pm
Subject:
RE: The Official Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice Discussion Thread
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RebelGrrl posted:
I think we need to look at Jacen's sacrifice as what it truly is: a test of loyalty.
Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader's test of loyalty was in Chancellor Palpatine's office, when Mace Windu was about to finish Darth Sidious. It ultimately doesn't matter exactly what Anakin was sacrificing with that act, because he proved his loyalty to Darth Sidious and the Sith. But what Anakin actually sacrificed was his dream of being Jedi, a dream he'd held since he was a child, of being the best Jedi ever. Saving Palpatine/Sidious ended that.
Looking towards the future, Darth Talon's killing of her Sith Master was a test of loyalty to Darth Krayt, and a sacrifice.
Both Krayt and Palpatine were looking for loyalty to them, personally, but they are also both aware that the lessons of history state they will be betrayed. That's part of the paradox of the Sith. Lumiya is also well aware Jacen has and will betray her, but he still must commit an act of loyalty to the Sith.
Mara is going after Lumiya. Lumiya and Mara know each other, and no doubt Lumiya is expecting such an act from Mara. Further, I'll speculate that Lumiya is working to make sure that Mara finds her... and finds her where Jacen will come upon their battle. Jacen will have a choice... does he save his aunt and kill the one person that he feels holds the answers he needs to bring peace to the galaxy for once and all, or does he save Lumiya, and bring untold pain to his beloved uncle and quite probably the conflict he had endeavored to avoid so many months ago by killing Nelani Dinn?
The business with Jacen naming himself can also be explained by Lumiya's continuous lie that she isn't a real Sith. Not being so in what she's told Jacen, she will tell him to name himself.
We get Jacen exactly on his grandfather's path. Jacen thought his grandfather fell for a selfish reason, the love of a woman, but Jacen is falling for a reason made impossible by his very fall, a peaceful galaxy for those he loves. It's really the same thing. Mara becomes Jacen's Mace Windu, not a true sacrifice in the fact of the person, but a true sacrifice in the fact of what that person represents.
You make a good argument but consider this: Jacen's loyalties lie with Lumiya and becoming a Sith. What is the biggest threat to him and Lumiya? The Jedi. And who leads the Jedi? Luke. So I think Jacen killing Luke would make for a good personal sacrifice as well as a strategic one.
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RebelGrrl
Registered:
Jan '06
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Date Posted:
4/12/07 6:54pm
Subject:
RE: The Official Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice Discussion Thread
- Date Edited:
4/12/07 6:55pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
RebelGrrl
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LordVader66, your information might be true, but it fails the 'trust but verify' test. I love spoilers, but only ones that can be verified from an official source. The rest just confuse the issue and cause more contention and arguement then they warrant. This 'hint' is in the same category as the fake-blurb for Inferno on amazon.uk.
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LordVader66
Registered:
Aug '05
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Date Posted:
4/12/07 7:19pm
Subject:
RE: The Official Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice Discussion Thread
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RebelGrrl posted:
LordVader66, your information might be true, but it fails the 'trust but verify' test. I love spoilers, but only ones that can be verified from an official source. The rest just confuse the issue and cause more contention and arguement then they warrant. This 'hint' is in the same category as the fake-blurb for Inferno on amazon.uk.
Indeed. I'm not trying to push this information on anyone. Normally, I wouldn't even have posted anything, except that I don't read the comics and I was hoping some would know what the quote was refering to.
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Lord-DarthMerrick
Registered:
Jul '03
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Date Posted:
4/12/07 7:51pm
Subject:
RE: The Official Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice Discussion Thread
- Date Edited:
4/12/07 7:52pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Lord-DarthMerrick
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Hmmm 4 months ago was January 12th. Legacy #7 came out January 10th and had force ghost Luke on cover!!!! That it seems is where your answer lies LordVader66' but I don't believe you have a friend at DR, I think your just trying to stir things up...good job, this place needs more stirring!
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Alynn
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
4/12/07 8:48pm
Subject:
RE: The Official Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice Discussion Thread
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RebelGrrl posted:
I think we need to look at Jacen's sacrifice as what it truly is: a test of loyalty.
Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader's test of loyalty was in Chancellor Palpatine's office, when Mace Windu was about to finish Darth Sidious. It ultimately doesn't matter exactly what Anakin was sacrificing with that act, because he proved his loyalty to Darth Sidious and the Sith. But what Anakin actually sacrificed was his dream of being Jedi, a dream he'd held since he was a child, of being the best Jedi ever. Saving Palpatine/Sidious ended that.
Looking towards the future, Darth Talon's killing of her Sith Master was a test of loyalty to Darth Krayt, and a sacrifice.
Both Krayt and Palpatine were looking for loyalty to them, personally, but they are also both aware that the lessons of history state they will be betrayed. That's part of the paradox of the Sith. Lumiya is also well aware Jacen has and will betray her, but he still must commit an act of loyalty to the Sith.
Mara is going after Lumiya. Lumiya and Mara know each other, and no doubt Lumiya is expecting such an act from Mara. Further, I'll speculate that Lumiya is working to make sure that Mara finds her... and finds her where Jacen will come upon their battle. Jacen will have a choice... does he save his aunt and kill the one person that he feels holds the answers he needs to bring peace to the galaxy for once and all, or does he save Lumiya, and bring untold pain to his beloved uncle and quite probably the conflict he had endeavored to avoid so many months ago by killing Nelani Dinn?
The business with Jacen naming himself can also be explained by Lumiya's continuous lie that she isn't a real Sith. Not being so in what she's told Jacen, she will tell him to name himself.
We get Jacen exactly on his grandfather's path. Jacen thought his grandfather fell for a selfish reason, the love of a woman, but Jacen is falling for a reason made impossible by his very fall, a peaceful galaxy for those he loves. It's really the same thing. Mara becomes Jacen's Mace Windu, not a true sacrifice in the fact of the person, but a true sacrifice in the fact of what that person represents.
And...RebelGrrl wins the internets! Brava! This is a very astute analysis.
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RebelGrrl
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Jan '06
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Date Posted:
4/12/07 8:51pm
Subject:
RE: The Official Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice Discussion Thread
- Date Edited:
4/12/07 9:00pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
RebelGrrl
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Re: the rumor that Luke's Force Ghost in Legacy has anything to do with Sacrifice's plot ...
All nice and pat, except Luke's Force Ghost appeared in an earlier issue and not in that issue at all. It's a logical assumption that Luke died before the opening scenes of Legacy #1 and in no way indicates that Dark Horse has any prior knowledge of Luke's death from anything Del Rey is doing. Just that at some point in the next hundred years, Luke dies. Few Jedi ever died of old age that I can remember, besides Yoda.
Also, Force Ghosts don't hang around forever. Obi-Wan let his consciousness fully subsume to the Force, and Yoda has only been seen once since RotJ, in an issue of Marvel Star Wars. We haven't seen Qui-Gon Jinn since he taught Ben and Yoda the secrets. I would think that Luke's death would be fairly recent in the Legacy Era timeline to Legacy #1, as in perhaps that is why Kol Skywalker is traveling to Ossus in the flashback in Legacy #10, to take up Luke's mantle. This would be roughly 13 years pre-Legacy #1. Conjecture, but makes more sense to me than a Force Ghost hanging on for 90 years when all the ones we know of clearly haven't done so for more than 20.
P.S.: Thanks, Alynn! 
Edited: Oh, I forgot Anakin Skywalker's ghost, also not seen after he appears to Leia less than 20 years post RotJ to try to get her forgiveness. Anakin Solo may or may not have appeared to Jacen on Coruscant in Traitor... that's sort of ambigious as to if he did or Jacen was imagining it. But Anakin Solo is still within the apparent 20 year term before Force Ghosts seem to get tired of watching what fools these mortals be and reliquish themselves fully into the Force.
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LordVader66
Registered:
Aug '05
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Date Posted:
4/12/07 9:21pm
Subject:
RE: The Official Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice Discussion Thread
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RebelGrrl posted:
Re: the rumor that Luke's Force Ghost in Legacy has anything to do with Sacrifice's plot ...
All nice and pat, except Luke's Force Ghost appeared in an earlier issue and not in that issue at all. It's a logical assumption that Luke died before the opening scenes of Legacy #1 and in no way indicates that Dark Horse has any prior knowledge of Luke's death from anything Del Rey is doing. Just that at some point in the next hundred years, Luke dies. Few Jedi ever died of old age that I can remember, besides Yoda.
Again, I am no authority on the comics, but I have to believe that Del Rey and Dark Horse need at least an outline of what is occuring in their current projects as to not disrupt continuity. I once read a quote in the LIT forum where someone from Dark Horse said that they have not revealed certain plot points as of yet because they do not want to compromise what is occuring in LotF. I assume how Luke died to be one of those points. Reading Lord Darth-Merrick's post, it seems 4 months ago Force Ghost Luke was on the cover, but I don't know if I'd classify that as a hint or not. Is Luke or any other current LotF character's death talked about in the Legacy comics? Personally, I'd be quite disappointed if Luke Skywalker died in Sacrafice. If he did, there would be a gaping hole in the EU as to who the hero is. Not current character is capable of stepping up and filling that role. I guess Ben would eventually step up, but right now he's too young and is having his mind twisted by Jacen. But interestingly, if it is Luke that goes, we have to reevaluate the meaning of Mara on the Sacrafice cover. Instead of being the Sacrafice, perhaps she is the hero of the novel. After Luke dies she prevents something from happens that would cause complete dispair.
RebelGrrl posted:
Also, Force Ghosts don't hang around forever. Obi-Wan let his consciousness fully subsume to the Force, and Yoda has only been seen once since RotJ, in an issue of Marvel Star Wars. We haven't seen Qui-Gon Jinn since he taught Ben and Yoda the secrets. I would think that Luke's death would be fairly recent in the Legacy Era timeline to Legacy #1, as in perhaps that is why Kol Skywalker is traveling to Ossus in the flashback in Legacy #10, to take up Luke's mantle. This would be roughly 13 years pre-Legacy #1. Conjecture, but makes more sense to me than a Force Ghost hanging on for 90 years when all the ones we know of clearly haven't done so for more than 20.
I would imagine if Luke did die, that his Force Ghost would be present throughout the rest of the LotF series and after. In your above post, you make a lot of assumptions. Do we really know ho Force Ghosts work? Luke being strong with the Force means that he could come back and reappear at will. Anakin Skywalker spoke to Jacen 30 years after his death in RotJ, so we know these dead Jedi are always watching.
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RebelGrrl
Registered:
Jan '06
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Date Posted:
4/12/07 9:31pm
Subject:
RE: The Official Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice Discussion Thread
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LordVader66 posted:
Again, I am no authority on the comics, but I have to believe that Del Rey and Dark Horse need at least an outline of what is occuring in their current projects as to not disrupt continuity. I once read a quote in the LIT forum where someone from Dark Horse said that they have not revealed certain plot points as of yet because they do not want to compromise what is occuring in LotF. I assume how Luke died to be one of those points.
DH and DR had a consult, but it's not 'on going' from what has been said. DH basically got clearance to do what they are doing, and a few key points, like the mystery of Darth Krayt, are being held off until Sacrifice's release, but how deliberate that is, I have no idea. You are the one assuming how Luke died could be one of them, the same sort of assumption I freely make in my conjecture on how long Force Ghosts linger.
Force Ghosts 'fading away' is a deliberate decision on the part of the Force Ghost and seems to be irreversible, as per Obi-Wan Kenobi's parting words to Luke Skywalker. Anakin Skywalker never appeared to Jacen Solo. Jacen Solo flow-walked back to Anakin Skywalker's era. That's entirely different. Anakin Solo may or may not have appeared to his brother in Traitor: the jury is still out. Of course Luke's Ghost, should he die, could remain throughout the LotF series because the whole nine books are placed in a span of 2 years. The Legacy comics begin roughly 90 years after that.
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Darth_Sprocket
Registered:
Sep '02
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Date Posted:
4/12/07 9:47pm
Subject:
RE: The Official Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice Discussion Thread
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I'm speculating that eventually, Luke will find out (thru the Force or by whatever means available) everything Jacen has been up to since 'Betrayal'. Whoever Jacen sacrifices will be the 'shatterpoint' for Luke----with righteous anger he will fight and kill Jacen. Remember, Luke only uses the Force when he has to---he doesn't 'show off' his power. And, he only fights as strong as he has too. Remember the Citadel in The Unifying Force? Jacen couldn't believe how fast his uncle was moving.
No, Jacen and Lumiya are making the same mistake as others have done with Luke---thinking him maybe a little too 'passive' when crunch time comes. They will learn the heavy cost of their overconfidence.
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LordVader66
Registered:
Aug '05
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Date Posted:
4/12/07 9:53pm
Subject:
RE: The Official Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice Discussion Thread
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RebelGrrl posted:
Force Ghosts 'fading away' is a deliberate decision on the part of the Force Ghost and seems to be irreversible, as per Obi-Wan Kenobi's parting words to Luke Skywalker. Anakin Skywalker never appeared to Jacen Solo. Jacen Solo flow-walked back to Anakin Skywalker's era. That's entirely different. Anakin Solo may or may not have appeared to his brother in Traitor: the jury is still out. Of course Luke's Ghost, should he die, could remain throughout the LotF series because the whole nine books are placed in a span of 2 years. The Legacy comics begin roughly 90 years after that.
I believe you are confusing what I said. Anakin Skywalker spoke to Jacen Solo in the Unifying Force during the end of the Vong War. Yes, Anakin did not appear to him, but he spoke to him. I was not referencing Jacen's flow walk to the Temple Raid in Bloodlines. I merely offering a counterpoint to your suggestion that these dead Jedi stop paying attention to galactic events after a certain period of time. Wheather the appear as Force Ghosts again may or may not be their decesion, but I believe they can "watch" events through the Force as Qui Gon did when he saw Anakin kill the Tuskens in AotC.
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Rouge77
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
4/12/07 9:55pm
Subject:
RE: The Official Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice Discussion Thread
- Date Edited:
4/12/07 9:58pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Rouge77
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The Force Ghosts are immortal. They do not disappear. They may stop appearing to people, but that does not mean that they merge totally with the Force. Just because Zahn made Obi-wan tell Luke that he had to go, that does not mean that it is the truth. It has not been confirmed anywhere and Obi-wan has "appeared" himself after that as a voice few times. Zahn, as great writer as he is, is not infallible and his word is not the last one in these things. 
Ulic Qel-Droma appeared to Anakin Skywalker almost 4000 years after his death in one minor game, which is canon.
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RebelGrrl
Registered:
Jan '06
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Date Posted:
4/12/07 10:26pm
Subject:
RE: The Official Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice Discussion Thread
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LordVader66 posted:
I believe you are confusing what I said. Anakin Skywalker spoke to Jacen Solo in the Unifying Force during the end of the Vong War. Yes, Anakin did not appear to him, but he spoke to him. I was not referencing Jacen's flow walk to the Temple Raid in Bloodlines. I merely offering a counterpoint to your suggestion that these dead Jedi stop paying attention to galactic events after a certain period of time. Wheather the appear as Force Ghosts again may or may not be their decesion, but I believe they can "watch" events through the Force as Qui Gon did when he saw Anakin kill the Tuskens in AotC.
I went and looked it up. Jacen Solo hears a voice that he thinks resembles Luke's, but deeper, in Balance Point. I will concede the point that it could possibly be Anakin Skywalker's voice, but it's never explicitely stated that it was, just implied. Still, fair point that dates Anakin Skywalker's last appearance to 26 years after his death.
I posit that Force Ghosts have a limited time of interest in the living because we have no evidence for it after a certain span of time, which is maximum 26 years at present. Rouge77, I don't play video games, and the fact that they are now considered canon irritates me to no end, especially since they have multiple endings and all sorts of other inherit difficulties that comics and novels don't have, but I will also concede that the potential is there for longer than 26 years.
That said, where the heck is Anakin Skywalker now, then? Why isn't he plaguing his grandson to no end now? Or his son? Or working on his granddaughter Jaina? How could he possibly be sitting in the bleachers on LotF events if he was observing them? That bespeaks a patience and restraint he never, ever had in life and an integral part of his personality that I don't think 36 years as a Force Ghost would change.
Where's Obi-Wan? Where's Yoda, to knock some sense into Luke and get him off his ass? Anakin could supply a lot of information on Lumiya that would be helpful in defeating her.
It's because of this that I posit that Force Ghosts don't linger forever. It just doesn't make sense that they wouldn't be giving any warning or hint or clue. It seems obvious to me that the Force really doesn't prevent them from doing so, and while some might have the restraint to let the living make their own messes, not all of them do.
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LordVader66
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Aug '05
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Date Posted:
4/12/07 11:49pm
Subject:
RE: The Official Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice Discussion Thread
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Clarification: In Balance Point, Jacen had a vision in which he hears the line "Stand firm!" from Anakin Skywalker. 4 years later in the Unifying Force he actually hears the words, and "he knows in his heart, that it's his grandfather, Anakin Skywalker". 30 years after Anakin's death.
You asking why any Force Ghost hasn't shown up yet, I don't think there has been any major issues that would warrant that. If Qui Gon Ginn doesn't speak to Anakin after he turned, or Obiwan Kenobi speaking to Vader after he tries to convert Luke, why is Anakin Skywalker or Anakin Solo going to come currently during LotF? There was the war with the Killiks (sp?) and Jacen's behavior was already questionable then. Jacen's intentions are trying to bring peace to the galaxy. He's working with a Sith, but that doesn't mean that someone has to pay a visit to him. Luke Skywalker may be the greatest Jedi that ever lived. The man is capable. These long ago Jedi have faith in the will of the Force. That being said, there are rumors that Anakin Skywalker or Anakin Solo will return as a Force Ghost at some point during LotF.
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SuperLariat
Registered:
Jun '03
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Date Posted:
4/13/07 5:28am
Subject:
RE: The Official Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice Discussion Thread
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The louder you yell, the harder it is to hear people whispering.. Or something like that, right?
Jacen is to deep in the Dark Side of the Force with all his manipulations that he can't hear the current anymore.. No one said Anakin I wasn't trying, just that he's not successful.
Maybe the same with Luke, but more with the whole distraction thing and less with the Dark Side.
Jaina.. well.. maybe he just doesn't like Jaina. She reminds him to much of himself as a teenager
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Vong_Killer
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Aug '01
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Date Posted:
4/13/07 7:15am
Subject:
RE: The Official Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice Discussion Thread
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Here's hoping it is Luke who dies, from a narrative standpoint it makes the most sense.
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