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Topic:
Confused About the Most Powerful Jedi
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TaradosGon
Registered:
Feb '03
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Date Posted:
7/21 3:17pm
Subject:
RE: Confused About the Most Powerful Jedi
- Date Edited:
7/21 3:27pm (3 edits total)
Edited By:
TaradosGon
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On the topic of whether or not Sidious faked defeat, I am not 100% sure that he was "overpowered" even though that's what Lucas has said. Lucas perhaps just didn't choose his words carefully, and "overpowered" is easier to say than "Sidious allows himself to be defeated by Mace in order to seduce Anakin by forcing Anakin to step in so that he would bear some of the responsibility and become a traitor... yadda yadda yadda."
Another example is when John Knoll explains Palpatine's transformation, it had already been established on Starwars.com that it was the lightning scarring him, while Knoll on the DVD commentary says it's the "strain and exertion," which can be considered somewhat vague, as it implies something different, but not irrefutably so. It was easier to keep the answer short and sweet (albeit vague) rather than giving some elaborate explanation as can be seen in the novelization.
Lucas explains on the DVD commentary that after betraying Mace, Anakin begins to justify his actions. He had committed great atrocities, but could not be brought to admit it, so he is forced to buy into Palpatine's lies to ease his consciousness. The only way in which that could happen is if Anakin bore some responsibility for the downfall of the Jedi Order, which required that he come to Palpatine's rescue. If Palpatine were seriously trying to kill Mace, and succeeded, then it's reasonable to assume that Anakin would not have turned.
Also, in the script it explains that Palpatine began to look tired at the time that he gets kicked in the face. But we know that he weakness itself was a lie, as he pretends to lose his power.
Thus, if I take what Lucas says at face value and assume that Palpatine was really trying to kill Mace and failed, then I don't see how Anakin would be brought to turn to the dark side. If Palpatine altered his plans on the fly, then that means that his original plan for seducing Anakin to the Dark Side had been different. If I knew what the original plan was, then I wouldn't having a problem in acknowledging that Palpatine was overpowered. But as it stands, it seems that Palpatine's encouragement of Anakin to mistrust the Jedi Order led to that moment perfectly, and I have a hard time believing that his original plan was different, as killing Mace without Anakin's assistance would be counter-productive.
As for who is the strongest Jedi/Sith. I think you could reasonable argue that Mace, Sidious, or Yoda was. I don't think you could argue that Anakin was, since Yoda decided that he would go after the Emperor while Obi-Wan would go after Anakin, as he was not strong enough to oppose the Emperor. Had Vader been stronger, then Obi-Wan would have been sent against the Emperor. Also, Palpatine says that "soon Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us" indicating that he had not quite reached that level of power in the Force. Between Mace, Yoda, and Palpatine however, it's a toss up. Dialogue indicates that Mace and Yoda are approximately equals. Mace (so long as you believe that Palpatine did not fake defeat) managed to corner Palpatine. But in the setting of the Senate Chamber, where Sidious was unable to be cornered, Sidious was able to pose a much greater challenge to Yoda as he had room to move about and use his force powers to greater effect.
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
7/21 4:04pm
Subject:
RE: Confused About the Most Powerful Jedi
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TaradosGon posted:
Thus, if I take what Lucas says at face value and assume that Palpatine was really trying to kill Mace and failed, then I don't see how Anakin would be brought to turn to the dark side. If Palpatine altered his plans on the fly, then that means that his original plan for seducing Anakin to the Dark Side had been different. If I knew what the original plan was, then I wouldn't having a problem in acknowledging that Palpatine was overpowered. But as it stands, it seems that Palpatine's encouragement of Anakin to mistrust the Jedi Order led to that moment perfectly, and I have a hard time believing that his original plan was different, as killing Mace without Anakin's assistance would be counter-productive.
The only way I could see it working in that situation would be that killing one of the two most powerful Jedi would serve as an effective demonstration of the power of the Dark Side. This would then lead Anakin to come to the conclusion that the Sith are truly more powerful than any Jedi and thus it's possible that they can keep others alive while the Jedi can't, making him swear to join Palpaitne to save Padme as he did anyway.
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"Surely you must understand that the means are no less important than the ends." - Luke Skywalker
"Creativity is piercing the mundane to find the marvelous." - Bill Moyers
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dety
Registered:
Aug '08
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Date Posted:
8/1 8:09am
Subject:
RE: Confused About the Most Powerful Jedi
- Date Edited:
8/1 8:52am (9 edits total)
Edited By:
dety
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Here is my lists and opinions :
During Prequels:
Jedi
Force Potential(midichlorian):
1.Anakin Skywalker(5/5 points)
2.Yoda(4/5 points)
3.Obi-Wan(3/5 points)
4.Mace Windu(2/5 points)
5.Qui-Gon(1/5 points
Force Knowledge:
1.Qui-Gon(5/5 points)
2.Yoda(4/5 points)
3.Anakin Skywalker/Obi-Wan/Mace Windu(3/5 points)
Lightsaber:
1.Mace Windu/Yoda(5/5 points)
2.Obi-Wan/Anakin Skywalker(3/5 points)
3.Qui-Gon.(2/5 points)
Strategy(Tactical fight):
1.Obi-Wan/Yoda(5/5 points)
2.Mace Windu/Qui-Gon/(4/5 points)
3.Anakin skywalker(3/5 points)
Emotions and rest of "mental"attributes:
1.Yoda(5/5 points)
2.Obi-Wan/Mace Windu/Qui-Gon(4/5 points)
3.Anakin Skywalker(3/5 points)
Total points:(Most powerful Jedi during prequels):
1.Yoda(23/25 points)
2.Obi-Wan/Mace windu(18/25 points)
3.Anakin Skywalker(17/25 points)
4.Qui-gon (16/25 points)
During Prequels:
Sith's
Force Potential(midichlorian):
1.Darth Vader(human, 5/5 points)
2:Darth Sidious(4/5 points)
3.Darth Tyranus(3/5 points)
4.Darth Maul(2/5 points)
5.Asajj Ventress(1/5 points)
Force Knowledge:
1.Darth Sidious(5/5 points)
2.Darth Tyranus(4/5 points)
3.Darth Vader(human, 3/5 points)
4.Darth Maul(2/5 points)
5.Asajj Ventress(1/5 points)
Lightsaber
1.Darth Sidious/Darth Vader (4/5 points)
3.Darth Tyranus(3/5 points)/Darth Maul(3/5 points)
4.Asajj Ventress(2/5 points)
Strategy(Tactical Fight):
1.Darth Sidious(5/5 points)
2.Darth Tyranus(4/5 points)
3.Darth Vader(human, 3/5 points)/Darth Maul(3/5 points)/A.Ventress(3/5)
Emotions and rest of "mental"attributes:
1.Darth Sidious (5/5 points)
2.Darth Tyranus (4/5 points)
3.Darth Maul/Darth Vader/Asajj Ventress(3/5 points)
Total points:(Most powerful Sith during prequels)
1.Darth Sidious(23/25 points)
2.Darth Tyranus/Darth Vader(18/25 points)
3.Darth Maul(13/25 points)
4.Asajj Ventress(10/25 points)
Final List(Prequels):
1.Darth Sidious/Yoda(23/25 points)
2.Obi-Wan/Mace Windu/Darth Tyranus/Darth Vader(18/25 points)
3.Anakin Skywalker(17/25 points)
4.Qui-Gon(16/25 points)
5.Darth Maul(13/25 points)
6.Asajj Ventress(10/25 points)
Even Maul bested Qui-gon, it dosen't mean he was more powerful.Qui-gon lost because maul had beter swordmanship.And notice Darth Vader as human(before his injuries), not as cyborg.
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Sir_Gideon
Registered:
Jul '08
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Date Posted:
8/2 9:24am
Subject:
RE: Confused About the Most Powerful Jedi
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This issue is complicated, but not nearly as some make it out to be. To be honest, I think a lot of people don't seem to comprehend what is meant by 'power' in this sense. It isn't referring to political acumen or influence or brilliance, but rather combat skills and Force prowess. And in terms of the prequel trilogy, it is very cut-and-dry, which is why it irks me when people here and the official Star Wars forums seem to overanalyze the issue to the point where they truly believe "u can't say who teh most powerful is."
According to the Revenge of the Sith novelization, written by an omniscient narrator, Yoda is referred to (in his battle with the newly-crowned Emperor) as "the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known". In terms of realized power, he surpasses Anakin Skywalker, Mace Windu, Obi-Wan Kenobi, et cetera. People try to deduct points from Yoda because he couldn't defeat Darth Sidious in single combat and then they jump to the conclusion that Mace Windu must be better. This is not the case. Windu defeated Sidious in single combat because his chosen lightsaber form, Vaapad, is the "deadliest" lightsaber form that is tailor-made to battle dark siders. Likewise, his shatterpoint charism (which is more proficient than Yoda's) allowed him to detect weaknesses in Sidious's saberplay. In terms of natural potency and realized power, both Yoda and Sidious surpass Windu.
It's really not that complicated. Yoda's number one and Windu is number two. Skywalker's probably third.
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Darthbane2007
Registered:
Oct '07
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Date Posted:
8/2 9:32am
Subject:
RE: Confused About the Most Powerful Jedi
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Sir_Gideon posted:
This issue is complicated, but not nearly as some make it out to be. To be honest, I think a lot of people don't seem to comprehend what is meant by 'power' in this sense. It isn't referring to political acumen or influence or brilliance, but rather combat skills and Force prowess. And in terms of the prequel trilogy, it is very cut-and-dry, which is why it irks me when people here and the official Star Wars forums seem to overanalyze the issue to the point where they truly believe "u can't say who teh most powerful is."
According to the Revenge of the Sith novelization, written by an omniscient narrator, Yoda is referred to (in his battle with the newly-crowned Emperor) as "the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known". In terms of realized power, he surpasses Anakin Skywalker, Mace Windu, Obi-Wan Kenobi, et cetera. People try to deduct points from Yoda because he couldn't defeat Darth Sidious in single combat and then they jump to the conclusion that Mace Windu must be better. This is not the case. Windu defeated Sidious in single combat because his chosen lightsaber form, Vaapad, is the "deadliest" lightsaber form that is tailor-made to battle dark siders. Likewise, his shatterpoint charism (which is more proficient than Yoda's) allowed him to detect weaknesses in Sidious's saberplay. In terms of natural potency and realized power, both Yoda and Sidious surpass Windu.
It's really not that complicated. Yoda's number one and Windu is number two. Skywalker's probably third.
Yes, but what categories are we talking about Most Powerful Jedi? Knowledge? Lightsaber Combat?
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Sir_Gideon
Registered:
Jul '08
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Date Posted:
8/2 10:34am
Subject:
RE: Confused About the Most Powerful Jedi
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Yoda's the best in all three.
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
8/2 1:28pm
Subject:
RE: Confused About the Most Powerful Jedi
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The main reason people put Mace on Yoda's level is that the starwars.com databank explicitly states that Mace is "on par with the venerable Yoda." Of course, I suppose an argument could be made that it refers to their combat ability and that Yoda has more raw power and skill, but that Vapaad gives Mace enough an edge to even them up.
-----signature-----
"Surely you must understand that the means are no less important than the ends." - Luke Skywalker
"Creativity is piercing the mundane to find the marvelous." - Bill Moyers
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Sir_Gideon
Registered:
Jul '08
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Date Posted:
8/2 2:22pm
Subject:
RE: Confused About the Most Powerful Jedi
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On par doesn't translate to absolute equal. Yoda doesn't leave Mace in the dust, but he is more powerful in all aspects, in the end.
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TaradosGon
Registered:
Feb '03
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Date Posted:
8/2 2:36pm
Subject:
RE: Confused About the Most Powerful Jedi
- Date Edited:
8/2 2:56pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
TaradosGon
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People tend to focus too much on the quote where Obi-Wan is said by Anakin to be as powerful as Mace and as wise as Yoda, when determining that Mace is more powerful than Yoda. There are two other quotes that imply the opposite being true (these may not be word-for-word):
"I foresee you are becoming the greatest of all Jedi, even more powerful than Master Yoda" - Palpatine
"If you were to practice your saber technique as much as you do your wit, you'd rival Master Yoda as a swordsman" - Obi-Wan
And I don't really know why most people rank Yoda below Sidious, they were about dead even. The only reason Yoda lost was circumstance. Both he and Palpatine were thrown when the lightning ball exploded, where they ended up was a function of where they were standing (and their size). Palpatine was standing in the center of the Senate pod and was sent backward to the edge of the pod, while Yoda was already standing on the edge and was sent backward off its side to the center of the Senate chamber.
And two versions of the script imply that Palpatine faked his fight with Mace. One version (the one I find when I look for a script on google, here) has a cut line of dialogue where, after Anakin tells Palpatine that he will be turned over to the Council, Palpatine says that he'll remain in his office and allow Anakin some time to decide his (Palpatine's fate). He's basically telling Anakin, "without your help, I'm dead." Another version of the script (I believe it's the one that's present when you put the DVD in your computer, go to Starwars.com and use the "script to screen" feature), says that Palpatine appears tired right before he gets kicked in the face. We know this is a deception since he fakes losing his powers, and because he springs back to life with the "Power, unlimited power!" line.
Thus, one could argue that Palpatine faked the fight, and so Mace's ability to beat Palpatine vs. Yoda's inability to do so might not be good enough grounds to rank Mace above Yoda.
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Sir_Gideon
Registered:
Jul '08
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Date Posted:
8/2 4:35pm
Subject:
RE: Confused About the Most Powerful Jedi
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There is no evidence that proves Sidious "faked" the duel with Windu. It doesn't matter, though. Windu was able to defeat Palpatine because of Vaapad and the shatterpoint charism; two skills he possesses that Yoda doesn't. In terms of Force potency, Yoda is above him, and is ultimately the more proficient swordsbeing.
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GS335
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
8/2 4:40pm
Subject:
RE: Confused About the Most Powerful Jedi
- Date Edited:
8/2 4:52pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
GS335
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Cren posted:
IT is easy too tell that Luke Skywalker is the most powerful jedi of all time for the simple reason that he destroyed the sith...(true sith)you can say darth kyate or what every is sith but he dosent follow the rule of two so hes not a sith....
He has the most power in the force he restarted the jedi order with out ever being trained fully into the force.He has the most raw force and as time goes on he just learns more then any other jedi ever..
Luke did not destroy the sith nor did he bring balance to the force. His father did that. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Luke's destiny was never to bring balance to the force, nor was it to destroy the sith. Luke was just there to redeem his father, so his father could fulfill his own destiny. Luke's true destiny was to restore the Jedi Order, not destroy the sith. Luke's father was the chosen one.
As for force potential, Luke is the strongest living Jedi in terms of raw power next to his father and sister, but its arguable if he's the strongest or the best, ever. Yoda in his prime maybe better than Luke in his prime. We really don't know.
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We can do ALL things through Christ Jesus, who strengthens us!
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GS335
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
8/2 4:50pm
Subject:
RE: Confused About the Most Powerful Jedi
- Date Edited:
8/2 5:03pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
GS335
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CucumberBoy posted:
Allright people - you're talking about the jedis and siths as if they were pokemon cards. C'mon - there were different situations and conditions every single time.
Personally - I'd say Luke 'cause he beat Vader and my money's on a win against Palpatine too if there had been one. The emperor was just lucky when Luke decided to throw away his lightsaber.
Just because Luke has more raw power than the likes of Yoda, it does not mean that ROTJ Luke would've beaten Palpatine. RoTJ Luke had limited training and was no where near as knowledgable in the force as Yoda was in his prime (re: Prequel Trilogy). If he was, than Luke would've been able to block Palpatine's force lightning with his bare hands, like Yoda did before. But he didn't, and was crying for his dear ol'crippled daddy for help. If crippled old vader didn't step in, Luke would've been toast.
I like Luke as much as anyone, but let's be realistic, here.
Luke in ROTJ had limited knowledge of the force. He's no where near Yoda's class. Not at all. Post ROTJ-Luke on the other hand, is a different story. By the time of the NJO saga, Luke is definately on par with Yoda, which is 25-30 years after ROTJ.
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We can do ALL things through Christ Jesus, who strengthens us!
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TaradosGon
Registered:
Feb '03
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Date Posted:
8/2 5:12pm
Subject:
RE: Confused About the Most Powerful Jedi
- Date Edited:
8/2 5:25pm (5 edits total)
Edited By:
TaradosGon
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Sir_Gideon posted:
There is no evidence that proves Sidious "faked" the duel with Windu. It doesn't matter, though. Windu was able to defeat Palpatine because of Vaapad and the shatterpoint charism; two skills he possesses that Yoda doesn't. In terms of Force potency, Yoda is above him, and is ultimately the more proficient swordsbeing.
Yes... there is. The script and reason. I will not argue that he definitively faked the fight, but reason (and the script) tell me that is the most likely thing to have happened.
The only thing that implies the contrary is a vague quote by Lucas.
Vapaad has no relevance to the film, and no importance to me.
Palpatine's fate would not be in Anakin's hands if Palpatine was going to try to kill Mace. Palpatine needed Anakin to take action and get blood on his hands in order to sever his ties to the Jedi. And had he not faked losing his powers, then it would not have appeared that Mace was the aggressor, which is something Palpatine needed Anakin to believe. Anakin needed to think that he was saving Palpatine's life. If Palpatine wasn't sure that Anakin wasn't going to come to his aid, then he wouldn't needlessly put himself in danger by telling Anakin that he would wait in his office.
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Sir_Gideon
Registered:
Jul '08
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Date Posted:
8/2 9:35pm
Subject:
RE: Confused About the Most Powerful Jedi
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TaradosGon posted:
Yes... there is.
No... there isn't. Do you believe everything you tell yourself?
TaradosGon posted:
The script and reason.
Neither, actually.
TaradosGon posted:
I will not argue that he definitively faked the fight, but reason (and the script) tell me that is the most likely thing to have happened.
That's nice. The thing is, however, that in a debate, the opposition isn't obligated to listen to the whispers in your head or what you tell yourself. You have to prove it; which, by your own admission, you're incapable of doing.
TaradosGon posted:
The only thing that implies the contrary is a vague quote by Lucas.
You don't seem to be catching on. Anything contrary to the straightforward interpretation -- Mace Windu disarming and overcoming Palpatine in their lightsaber duel -- bears the burden of proof. So, basically, what is contrary to your opinion is what the movie shows us and a statement made by the Great One himself, who is Star Wars' version of God Almighty. His word = law, essentially.
TaradosGon posted:
Vapaad has no relevance to the film, and no importance to me.
I've had accusations hurled at me on a regular basis about my own ego, but you, sir, seem to dwarf my own narcissism. Who are you to dictate what is relevant to the film? Moreover, why do the rest of us give a damn about what is or is not important to you? The answer is: we don't. Vaapad is a canonical concept, the seventh form of lightsaber combat, mentioned and used in the Revenge of the Sith novelization. It's relevant. Period. Not something you can just conveniently discard when it puts a killshot to your argument.
TaradosGon posted:
Palpatine's fate would not be in Anakin's hands if Palpatine was going to try to kill Mace. Palpatine needed Anakin to take action and get blood on his hands in order to sever his ties to the Jedi. And had he not faked losing his powers, then it would not have appeared that Mace was the aggressor, which is something Palpatine needed Anakin to believe. Anakin needed to think that he was saving Palpatine's life. If Palpatine wasn't sure that Anakin wasn't going to come to his aid, then he wouldn't needlessly put himself in danger by telling Anakin that he would wait in his office.
This is what you think will make all of us believe Palpatine was faking it? We seem to be on separate pages; I know Palpatine exaggerated his weakness and faked vulnerability after the Force lightning incident. But the duel prior to that? No. Not a single thing in this yawn-inducing speculation approaches factual standards. Speculation =/= evidence.
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
8/2 10:12pm
Subject:
RE: Confused About the Most Powerful Jedi
- Date Edited:
8/2 10:13pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Master_Starwalker
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Sir_Gideon posted:
On par doesn't translate to absolute equal. Yoda doesn't leave Mace in the dust, but he is more powerful in all aspects, in the end.
I suppose that's a fair point.
GS335 posted:
Cren posted:
IT is easy too tell that Luke Skywalker is the most powerful jedi of all time for the simple reason that he destroyed the sith...(true sith)you can say darth kyate or what every is sith but he dosent follow the rule of two so hes not a sith....
He has the most power in the force he restarted the jedi order with out ever being trained fully into the force.He has the most raw force and as time goes on he just learns more then any other jedi ever..
Luke did not destroy the sith nor did he bring balance to the force. His father did that. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Luke's destiny was never to bring balance to the force, nor was it to destroy the sith. Luke was just there to redeem his father, so his father could fulfill his own destiny. Luke's true destiny was to restore the Jedi Order, not destroy the sith. Luke's father was the chosen one.
Eh, if you take the EU into account, Anakin didn't destroy the Sith either.
GS335 posted:
As for force potential, Luke is the strongest living Jedi in terms of raw power next to his father and sister, but its arguable if he's the strongest or the best, ever. Yoda in his prime maybe better than Luke in his prime. We really don't know.
Luke's done things Yoda couldn't dream of though. For instance, Luke has fought while walking on lava.
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"Creativity is piercing the mundane to find the marvelous." - Bill Moyers
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