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Topic:
Confused About the Most Powerful Jedi
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TaradosGon
Registered:
Feb '03
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Date Posted:
8/3 7:17am
Subject:
RE: Confused About the Most Powerful Jedi
- Date Edited:
8/3 8:15am (8 edits total)
Edited By:
TaradosGon
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Sir_Gideon posted:
You don't seem to be catching on. Anything contrary to the straightforward interpretation -- Mace Windu disarming and overcoming Palpatine in their lightsaber duel -- bears the burden of proof. So, basically, what is contrary to your opinion is what the movie shows us and a statement made by the Great One himself, who is Star Wars' version of God Almighty. His word = law, essentially.
Several things:
1) All of your points are made in a single post, as are mine. Do you think that I can somehow respond to your points before you make the next one?
2) And Lucas makes no mention of Vapaad. It's a product of the EU.
3) Do you find it necessary to open every point you make with a rude jab?
4) Lucas only said that Mace overpowered Sidious. You can still overpower someone when they're not trying.
Sir_Gideon posted:
I've had accusations hurled at me on a regular basis about my own ego, but you, sir, seem to dwarf my own narcissism. Who are you to dictate what is relevant to the film? Moreover, why do the rest of us give a damn about what is or is not important to you? The answer is: we don't. Vaapad is a canonical concept, the seventh form of lightsaber combat, mentioned and used in the Revenge of the Sith novelization. It's relevant. Period. Not something you can just conveniently discard when it puts a killshot to your argument.
Vapaad is no more canonical than the marriage of Luke Skywalker to Mara Jade (which Lucas said does not happen in his universe). It's not narcissism to reject EU material when others try to relate it to what is seen in the films. Thus, I can easily discard it, because I'm sure it wasn't even in Lucas' cards to begin with. Nor was the Emperor cloned, nor did the Sith rise again in Lucas' universe. The films are Lucas' universe. Vapaad is EXPANDED universe, unknown to the vast majority of Star Wars fans, and probably unknown to Lucas.
Sir_Gideon posted:
This is what you think will make all of us believe Palpatine was faking it? We seem to be on separate pages; I know Palpatine exaggerated his weakness and faked vulnerability after the Force lightning incident. But the duel prior to that? No. Not a single thing in this yawn-inducing speculation approaches factual standards. Speculation =/= evidence.
The point of my whole post. I said I can't DEFINITELY say that Palpatine faked his fight. I feel that the debate on the subject (as there has been much debate on this board over the years) has no definitive answer as of yet.
Logic:
1) Why would Palpatine run from Yoda and not 4 Jedi masters (one of which was close to Yoda in power?) There must be a reason. The only one I can suspect is that Palpatine had nothing to gain from facing Yoda. It was a risk to fight Yoda, an unnecessary one. He would have ran if he had not been cornered.
2) When Anakin tells Palpatine he's going to turn Palpatine over to the Council, Palpatine says "I'll wait here" and "you get to decide my fate." He was leaving his fate in Anakin's hands. Why? Because I suspect he KNEW that Anakin would save him. Why put himself in harm's way needlessly? Well, because it wasn't needless; it was necessary in order to turn Anakin.
3) It's completely out of character for him to face down 4 Jedi Masters. Lucas in the commentary (when comparing Grievous to Palpatine) refers to Palpatine as cowardly, preferring to have others fight for them. His fight with Yoda supports that, but to believe that he was going to risk his life against 4 Jedi Masters does NOT support that, unless he suspected that Anakin would show up and finish his fight. Why not simply resist fighting from the start? Because he needed to provoke Mace to kill him. Once Anakin is near, he starts to look tired, which encourages Mace to make a move and disarm Palpatine. He held his own long enough to provoke Mace and wait out until Anakin arrived, once Anakin was near he began faking weakness while his saber was still in his hands, and allowed himself to be overpowered.
Everything can not be spelled out for the audience. Why does the Senate support Palpatine? Because they feel it is in their best interest. A cut scene supports this, but since the scene is cut (and therefore not known to everyone) what is one to think about the senate's actions? Well, LOGIC can lead a person to arrive at the same conclusion that the cut scene spells out. Cut lines of dialogue and script lines pretty much spell out that Palpatine was faking the fight. But because they were cut, how can one arrive at the conclusion that Palpatine faked the fight? By comparing his actions to the character's established personality. Everything cannot be spelled out for the fans. The script says that Palpatine is supposed to appear tired, and we KNOW he wasn't tired. If McDiarmid's acting didn't convey a feeling of tiredness, then chalk that one up to subpar acting (they apparently had very little time in which to shoot the whole Mace-Palpatine fight, so it's understandable). It's not like Palpatine - mid fight - is going to go "Oh, I'm getting tired! I need a breather" to spell it out to the audience. Nor is he going to stand up, after Mace was thrown out the window, and say "Anakin, you just got punk'd! I was faking the whole thing!"
If film is art (like literature), then shouldn't interpretation of film be similar to that of literature? And literature interpretation is just about NEVER straight forward. In the case of film, it usually is more straight forward, but not always. MY interpretation isn't canon, and I never said it was. But it is defended.
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The_Phenomenon7
Registered:
Apr '08
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Date Posted:
8/3 7:27am
Subject:
RE: Confused About the Most Powerful Jedi
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The most powerful Jedi who ever lived was Plo Koon.
Chuck Norris went through a rift in time and space. He appeared in the GFFA as Plo Koon.
Thus, Plo is the most powerful.
On a serious Note, I always thought it went (In terms of Force Potential)
Anakin
Yoda
Obi-Wan
Mace
Plo Koon
Quinlan Vos
But I've been known to be wrong.
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GS335
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
8/3 8:35pm
Subject:
RE: Confused About the Most Powerful Jedi
- Date Edited:
8/3 8:41pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
GS335
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Master_Starwalker posted:
Sir_Gideon posted:
On par doesn't translate to absolute equal. Yoda doesn't leave Mace in the dust, but he is more powerful in all aspects, in the end.
I suppose that's a fair point.
GS335 posted:
Cren posted:
IT is easy too tell that Luke Skywalker is the most powerful jedi of all time for the simple reason that he destroyed the sith...(true sith)you can say darth kyate or what every is sith but he dosent follow the rule of two so hes not a sith....
He has the most power in the force he restarted the jedi order with out ever being trained fully into the force.He has the most raw force and as time goes on he just learns more then any other jedi ever..
Luke did not destroy the sith nor did he bring balance to the force. His father did that. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Luke's destiny was never to bring balance to the force, nor was it to destroy the sith. Luke was just there to redeem his father, so his father could fulfill his own destiny. Luke's true destiny was to restore the Jedi Order, not destroy the sith. Luke's father was the chosen one.
Eh, if you take the EU into account, Anakin didn't destroy the Sith either.
GS335 posted:
As for force potential, Luke is the strongest living Jedi in terms of raw power next to his father and sister, but its arguable if he's the strongest or the best, ever. Yoda in his prime maybe better than Luke in his prime. We really don't know.
Luke's done things Yoda couldn't dream of though. For instance, Luke has fought while walking on lava.
The EU states that Anakin is the chosen one and destroyed the big threat, which was Palpatine and himself by his self sacrifice. That was Anakin's destiny, not Luke's. Luke's destiny was to restore the Jedi Order, not bring balance to the force. Leia's destiny was to help restore the Republic. All three have done their jobs and have fulfilled their respective destinies.
The EU writers have to do Lucas' bidding, whether they like it or not. I bet you most EU writers secretly hate the fact that Anakin is the chosen one, but they have to accept it, because its how Lucas wants it and Lucas controls everything, as he has the rights to the characters and the story, itself.
As for Jedi abilities, Luke has done some amazing things but so has Yoda. But that hardly makes a Jedi great. What makes a great Jedi is having selflessness and compassion. Luke rebuilt the Jedi Order, yes, but Yoda's teachings were the foundation Luke used for the New Jedi Order.
"Don't try, just do". That's what Yoda taught Luke, and that's something Luke has passed down to the new generation of Jedi.
So to say Luke is better than Yoda is purely subjective. We honestly don't know who's better, neither does it matter. What matters the most is both are great Jedi. That's it.
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
8/4 12:04am
Subject:
RE: Confused About the Most Powerful Jedi
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GS335 posted:
The EU states that Anakin is the chosen one and destroyed the big threat, which was Palpatine and himself by his self sacrifice. That was Anakin's destiny, not Luke's. Luke's destiny was to restore the Jedi Order, not bring balance to the force. Leia's destiny was to help restore the Republic. All three have done their jobs and have fulfilled their respective destinies.
Oh, I'm not saying Luke's the Chosen One in any universe. I'm simply pointing out the EU presents problems for the G-canon version of the prophecy(Anakin destroying the Sith.)
GS335 posted:
The EU writers have to do Lucas' bidding, whether they like it or not. I bet you most EU writers secretly hate the fact that Anakin is the chosen one, but they have to accept it, because its how Lucas wants it and Lucas controls everything, as he has the rights to the characters and the story, itself.
Oh, I think they probably do and I think it's caused them to fail to fully take advantage of the storytelling opportunities that the Prophecy offers.
GS335 posted:
As for Jedi abilities, Luke has done some amazing things but so has Yoda. But that hardly makes a Jedi great. What makes a great Jedi is having selflessness and compassion. Luke rebuilt the Jedi Order, yes, but Yoda's teachings were the foundation Luke used for the New Jedi Order.
"Don't try, just do". That's what Yoda taught Luke, and that's something Luke has passed down to the new generation of Jedi.
So to say Luke is better than Yoda is purely subjective. We honestly don't know who's better, neither does it matter. What matters the most is both are great Jedi. That's it.
See, but I'm not saying Luke is a better Jedi or vice versa. I'm only saying Luke is more powerful than Yoda(which he is if he's achieved his full potential in the EU given that it according to Lucas is 2x the Emperor who is at the least on par with Yoda.) You're right that saying who is better is purely subjective as it depends partially on which interpretation of Jedi philosophy you prefer, but power is more objective.
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asiy05
Registered:
Jan '07
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Date Posted:
8/4 12:56pm
Subject:
RE: Confused About the Most Powerful Jedi
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TaradosGon posted:
taradosgon, ur perception of the fight may be defended, but so is ours.
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Sir_Gideon
Registered:
Jul '08
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Date Posted:
8/4 2:20pm
Subject:
RE: Confused About the Most Powerful Jedi
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Anakin did destroy the Sith. That's canon and inarguable. Permenantly? Not necessarily. But he certainly ended the reign of their greatest and most powerful member and the others are not nearly as threatening.
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
8/4 2:34pm
Subject:
RE: Confused About the Most Powerful Jedi
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It's canon, but the EU directly contradicts it. Anakin didn't destroy Palpatine in the EU. He merely destroyed the shell which contained Palpatine's essence.
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Bigotry shouldn't be confused with moral conviction.
"Truth is one, the sages speak of it by many names."
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TaradosGon
Registered:
Feb '03
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Date Posted:
8/4 3:16pm
Subject:
RE: Confused About the Most Powerful Jedi
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asiy05 posted:
taradosgon, ur perception of the fight may be defended, but so is ours.
Which is why I acknowledged that I could not say that Palpatine definitively faked the fight. What sparked my defense of my interpretation was:
Sir_Gideon posted:
There is no evidence that proves Sidious "faked" the duel with Windu.
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GS335
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
8/5 1:38pm
Subject:
RE: Confused About the Most Powerful Jedi
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Master_Starwalker posted:
GS335 posted:
The EU states that Anakin is the chosen one and destroyed the big threat, which was Palpatine and himself by his self sacrifice. That was Anakin's destiny, not Luke's. Luke's destiny was to restore the Jedi Order, not bring balance to the force. Leia's destiny was to help restore the Republic. All three have done their jobs and have fulfilled their respective destinies.
Oh, I'm not saying Luke's the Chosen One in any universe. I'm simply pointing out the EU presents problems for the G-canon version of the prophecy(Anakin destroying the Sith.)
GS335 posted:
The EU writers have to do Lucas' bidding, whether they like it or not. I bet you most EU writers secretly hate the fact that Anakin is the chosen one, but they have to accept it, because its how Lucas wants it and Lucas controls everything, as he has the rights to the characters and the story, itself.
Oh, I think they probably do and I think it's caused them to fail to fully take advantage of the storytelling opportunities that the Prophecy offers.
GS335 posted:
As for Jedi abilities, Luke has done some amazing things but so has Yoda. But that hardly makes a Jedi great. What makes a great Jedi is having selflessness and compassion. Luke rebuilt the Jedi Order, yes, but Yoda's teachings were the foundation Luke used for the New Jedi Order.
"Don't try, just do". That's what Yoda taught Luke, and that's something Luke has passed down to the new generation of Jedi.
So to say Luke is better than Yoda is purely subjective. We honestly don't know who's better, neither does it matter. What matters the most is both are great Jedi. That's it.
See, but I'm not saying Luke is a better Jedi or vice versa. I'm only saying Luke is more powerful than Yoda(which he is if he's achieved his full potential in the EU given that it according to Lucas is 2x the Emperor who is at the least on par with Yoda.) You're right that saying who is better is purely subjective as it depends partially on which interpretation of Jedi philosophy you prefer, but power is more objective.
Power is overrated, because that does not determine what makes a Jedi truly great. What made Yoda great was not his power and skill (he had plenty of that), but his wisdom, courage, and compassion. Yoda's wisdom is the foundation of the New Jedi Order, the same philosophy Luke has his Jedi Order based off of. Matter of fact, Luke has used Obi Wan and Yoda's teachings as a foundation for the New Jedi Order.
Luke is a great Jedi, yes, but don't downplay Obi Wan or Yoda. Both have set the standards. Let's not forget that Luke was their Apprentice. Even as an older man, Luke refers to Yoda and old Ben as his masters.
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GS335
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
8/5 1:40pm
Subject:
RE: Confused About the Most Powerful Jedi
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Master_Starwalker posted:
It's canon, but the EU directly contradicts it. Anakin didn't destroy Palpatine in the EU. He merely destroyed the shell which contained Palpatine's essence.
Anakin destroyed Palpatine, himself. The one Luke fought was just a clone.
By making Anakin the chosen one, Lucas contradicted the EU.
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Sir_Gideon
Registered:
Jul '08
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Date Posted:
8/5 2:33pm
Subject:
RE: Confused About the Most Powerful Jedi
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You're both splitting hairs. First, the clone was Palpatine. Not his original body, but his dark side genius and spirit were both there. Second, by DE, Sidious had already lost as far as the Force was concerned; he was just determined to take the rest of the galaxy with him.
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darth_gersh
Registered:
Feb '05
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Date Posted:
8/6 10:10am
Subject:
RE: Confused About the Most Powerful Jedi
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I always saw that Anakin was the Chosen one and fullfilled his destiny when he saved Luke and killed the emperor. He destroyed the sith that rulled the galaxy. But you can still have sith that can rise after the Emperor died.
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GARTH_MAUL
Title: Photorealistic LACWAC Manager
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
8/6 10:57am
Subject:
RE: Confused About the Most Powerful Jedi
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I think this an EU thread more than anything, and I think it should probably be in "Literature", where most of the EU/canon discussions take place. But I'll leave that up to Quest.
I also think both sides are playing with fire here. I've never seen anything conclusive to determine whether or not Sidious lost to Windu; I think Lucas purposely left it ambiguous. You can summon whatever evidence you want to prove your side, but the case won't be airtight until Lucas lets us know one way or the other.
Lucas has said that Anakin is the Chosen One, I think that's pretty clear. I think the Prophecy is mostly for the purposes of The Saga itself. The Sith are the antithesis of the Jedi, and it would be really boring to be an EU writer and not be able to write them in as characters.
At any rate, rather than attacking the user (words like "ego" and "arrogant"), attack the user's argument.
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
8/7 11:54am
Subject:
RE: Confused About the Most Powerful Jedi
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GS335 posted:
Power is overrated, because that does not determine what makes a Jedi truly great. What made Yoda great was not his power and skill (he had plenty of that), but his wisdom, courage, and compassion. Yoda's wisdom is the foundation of the New Jedi Order, the same philosophy Luke has his Jedi Order based off of. Matter of fact, Luke has used Obi Wan and Yoda's teachings as a foundation for the New Jedi Order.
Luke is a great Jedi, yes, but don't downplay Obi Wan or Yoda. Both have set the standards. Let's not forget that Luke was their Apprentice. Even as an older man, Luke refers to Yoda and old Ben as his masters.
And none of that contradicts the point I made, especially since I specifically said I'm not arguing about what makes a Jedi great, but simply who is more powerful.
GS335 posted:
Master_Starwalker posted:
It's canon, but the EU directly contradicts it. Anakin didn't destroy Palpatine in the EU. He merely destroyed the shell which contained Palpatine's essence.
Anakin destroyed Palpatine, himself. The one Luke fought was just a clone.
By making Anakin the chosen one, Lucas contradicted the EU.
Palpatine's spirit survived, so he didn't destroy him in the EU. I do agree that Lucas contradicts it(which is certainly his prerogative) but, it hurts the legitimacy of the EU as Dark Empire became a cornerstone of the EU for awhile.
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FireJade
Registered:
Nov '05
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Date Posted:
8/7 2:17pm
Subject:
RE: Confused About the Most Powerful Jedi
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GARTH_MAUL posted:
I also think both sides are playing with fire here. I've never seen anything conclusive to determine whether or not Sidious lost to Windu; I think Lucas purposely left it ambiguous. You can summon whatever evidence you want to prove your side, but the case won't be airtight until Lucas lets us know one way or the other.
I agree with this... but can we safely say that it shows that neither Windu nor Sidious (as of RotS, anyways - some people might debate otherwise regarding DE) are far and above the other?
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