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Topic:
(Spoilers) Initial Reactions and Discussion for Kingdom of the Crystal Skull
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Go-Mer-Tonic
Registered:
Aug '99
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Date Posted:
6/16 7:48am
Subject:
RE: (Spoilers) Initial Reactions and Discussion for Kingdom of the Crystal Skull
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NZPoe,
I guess for me I didn't need Irina Spalko to be more threatening than she was. I don't mean to act like you can't feel the way you do about it, I just don't see this as a shortcoming myself.
Sure they stole the Ark from Indy a couple of times, but Irina stole the skull from Indy too. There was a similar vehicular chase to retrieve Indy's stolen treasure.
The Nazi's kidnapped Indy's father, the Russians kidnapped Indy's love interest. Same difference to me.
When it comes to the Big Russian thug, I thought it played well off the previous movies to have him sit there like Indy's attack was futile, then have him fall over. Sort of like when he got to the swordsman in Temple of Doom and goes for his gun that's not there, but in reverse. He thinks he's screwed again like with the Raiders Nazi thug, but then he just falls over. I don't know I thought it was amusing.
Mola Ram was probably the most evil villain so far. I don't think even Darth Vader would have wanted to hang out with him, but I don't think every villain has to be like that. There is a nice variety so far, and as I said I personally feel that Irina Spalko is the best yet, simply because she isn't painted as a cold blooded villain. There is a certain sympathy for her that I thought made her a deeper villain than most of the others.
I'm not getting upset about your critiques, I'm just saying I have a difficult time relating to your problems with the script. I'm sorry I mistook your harsh condemnation of the last half of the script for a harsh condemnation of the last half of the film itself, I guess I'm just not too sure I understand the distinction. Are you saying the last half of the script really really really sucks, but the last half of the film was awesome? In that case then I can relate to that part of how you feel about the movie itself.
I haven't read the script or the novel, I'm just of the opinion that the movie was fantastic. A wonderful entry into the Indiana Jones canon that I can watch with the same enthusiasm I have for the original 3.
When you say that the tarzan swing CG wasn't done well I have to disagree. I thought it looked like Mutt was swinging through the trees to me. I couldn't even tell the monkeys were CG until people said they were on the board. The only time I thought the CG was a little too fantastic was at the very end with the Alien, but I let that slide because how else are they going to do the alien? Big rubber puppet? That would have probably been even less convincing IMHO. I'll give you that Mutt's ability to swing wasn't set up (like his fencing skills) but it's a pitfall kind of movie, so what if someone swings on vines? It's almost obligatory.
All this talk about how things "fly in the face of the rules setup in the previous films" is going right over my head. Did you get some kind of rule book that I don't have access to? Or are you assuming the rules based on your observation of the previous films? Maybe that's what Princess Tina is getting at when she talks about your "expectations". Sure I guess Mutt wasn't put through the ringer in that he wasn't all scruffed up and used looking by the end of the jungle chase, but I thought Indy was always showing the pain and torture of his heroic acts. One of my favorite bits is at the beginning of the film when the rocket sled stops and Indy weakly pushes the Russian off the sled and falls off the other side. Obviously incoherent from the express ride across the desert, you can see the humanity in every scene with Harrison.
I can see what you mean about not setting up the tarzan sequence, but I guess I just accepted it as a whimsical moment that to me didn't need more exposition. I mean he get caught in the vines, is lifted up by the monkeys, and the monkeys start swinging on the vines, so Mutt was like monkey see monkey do. To me that's amusing.
I do understand how the movie makers attempt to make things as believable as they can, but I still say the audience has to be willing to go along for the ride. They have to meet the film makers half way, and it just seems like you are sitting in your chair with your arms folded saying: Well they didn't set up the vine swinging, so no sale. Certainly that's your call to make, it's just for me the lack of setup isn't a deal breaker. I just took it as a whimsical moment.
You say the explanation of why they wanted more alien corpses after they had found two wasn't in the film, but then where did I get it from? Sure they didn't have someone look in the camera and spell it all out, but the fact that they had found two, went looking for a third at area 51, then explained that that one wasn't of use either pretty much explained it as far as I was concerned.
I certainly am not upset by your take on the movie, you are entitled to the way you see things of course. I hope you don't mind the way I have disagreed. We all have our own points of view, and the only reason I debate you on this is in the hopes that I can share the joy I had with the movie. In the end it's up to you how you see things, and if I haven't been able to change your mind then that's just how it goes. There's no right or wrong here.
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"...that’s not my job, to make people like my movies. They either like them or they don’t. That’s completely out of my hands.” -Lucas
"At least I will have finished what I set out to do, and at least they will have been good to me." -Lucas
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Princess_Tina
Registered:
May '01
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Date Posted:
6/16 7:56am
Subject:
RE: (Spoilers) Initial Reactions and Discussion for Kingdom of the Crystal Skull
- Date Edited:
6/16 8:06am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Princess_Tina
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NZPoe posted:
It's a flawed movie. People find it useful to discuss their thoughts, ideas and points of view of any subjective medium to better interpret it impact, significance and quality. This is not going to change, no matter how much you insist that people listen to you.
Seriously.
- EDIT -
Actually, Princess_Tina, I'll make a stab at understanding your POV in a more implicit manner. If - by what your posts have claimed - you're saying that you think that there are no flaws in any of the Indiana Jones films that are worth discussing or that overshadow the excellent quality of all four films....then I will fully concede that my discussion does not, in any way, bear relevance to your opinions and I will fully cease to rebutt anything you post.
I feel it does a great disrespect to all parties to have a discussion like this with anyone who isn't interested in any aspect of the discussion and - in this particular case - I don't wish to waste your time talking about my thoughts on the merits and flaws of the cinematic craft of the film(s) if you do not feel that there is any discussion to be had.
I'm happy to continue talking with the likes of zombie and Go-Mer who have differences of opinion on the subject rather than pointlessly discuss the topic with someone who isn't interested in the subject altogether.
There are very few movies in film history that could truly be worthy of being called flawless or just about flawless. Casablanca, Citizen Kane, La Règle du Jeu, Les Enfants du Paradis, Rashomon, Lawrence of Arabia are a few of the titles that come to mind as being arguably flawless movies. Not for everybody, perhaps, but still some of the greatest motion pictures of all time.
When it comes to modern motion pictures, different standards need to apply, in my opinion. To say that a movie is just fine the way it is, does not in my mind signify that it is a flawless picture, it just means it's pretty darn good considering the quality of the average Hollywood picture being made today. And I think Indy 4 is just fine the way it is. I'm not making the case it is a perfect movie, or even a great movie, just that it's a fun movie that to me possesses the rarest quality any modern American movie: it makes you want to watch it again, and it is just as entertaining (if not more) on repeat viewings.
I had some minor quibbles with very small aspects of the movie, which I mentioned here after the midnight showing, nothing that kept me from enjoying the movie tremendously. Those quibbles seem so insignificant now, and have almost been erased from my mind after 3 additional viewings, that in all honesty I think it would be downright petty to start looking for things to criticize about the movie. It's good at what it does. It doesn't try to be a great movie, or have some great social significances. It's just American pop culture at its best - firing on all cylinders, equally fun for people almost anywhere in the world. It's one of the things at which some Americans still excel and arguably do better than anyone else in the world.
There are a lot of flaws with a lot of the summer movies that have been released so far, and of course that might make for a more interesting discussion, but I am not so sure that it would be appropriate to discuss them in a forum that's specifically for non-SW Lucasfilm projects, including of course Indiana Jones.
Go-Mer-Tonic posted:
I haven't read the script or the novel, I'm just of the opinion that the movie was fantastic. A wonderful entry into the Indiana Jones canon that I can watch with the same enthusiasm I have for the original 3.
All this talk about how things "fly in the face of the rules setup in the previous films" is going right over my head. Did you get some kind of rule book that I don't have access to? Or are you assuming the rules based on your observation of the previous films? Maybe that's what Princess Tina is getting at when she talks about your "expectations".
I certainly am not upset by your take on the movie, you are entitled to the way you see things of course. I hope you don't mind the way I have disagreed. We all have our own points of view, and the only reason I debate you on this is in the hopes that I can share the joy I had with the movie. In the end it's up to you how you see things, and if I haven't been able to change your mind then that's just how it goes. There's no right or wrong here.
I agree, I think the movie is just fantastic. And I also have as much enthusiasm for the latest installment than I do for the other three. Maybe even more enthusiasm for Indy 4, because the other ones I have been able to take for granted for the last 19 years, but Indy 4 was one of those things that kept getting delayed indefinitely and for so many years, you just sort of wondered if it was ever actually going to happen. I certainly wanted it to happen, and I was hoping that if it did get made, it wouldn't be a disappointment for them to have picked up two decades later.
But that's the great thing about it. It wasn't a disappointment. It was the most fun I've had in the movies in a very long time. I enjoyed it thoroughly, and loved every minute of it during all four times that I've watched it so far.
Light-hearted American movies -- pop culture stuff, if you will -- do not make up a large portion of my movie watching schedule these days. I'm much more interested in classics and foreign-language movies. And I've come to realize I guess after a while that certain kind of movies are just such a perfect example of a certain kind of movie-making at its best that they can be an awful lot of fun, not because you have any kind of expectation that it's supposed to be flawless or something, but because you can sit back and watch it and just have a lot of fun watching it.
So yes, I still think KotCS is by far the best movie so far this summer, and I don't think it's going to be easily topped by anything else. I look forward to watching it a few more times, especially when it's out on home video and I can watch all the four Indy movies together. 
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Jango10
Registered:
Sep '02
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Date Posted:
6/16 8:05am
Subject:
RE: (Spoilers) Initial Reactions and Discussion for Kingdom of the Crystal Skull
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Raiders is also one of those perfect movies you mentioned. 
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"I love the smell of Napalm in the morning."
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Princess_Tina
Registered:
May '01
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Date Posted:
6/16 8:08am
Subject:
RE: (Spoilers) Initial Reactions and Discussion for Kingdom of the Crystal Skull
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Jango10 posted:
Raiders is also one of those perfect movies you mentioned.
I honestly don't see a huge difference between the Indy movies. They're all equally enjoyable, even if they all have a slightly different tone.
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zombie
Registered:
Aug '99
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Date Posted:
6/16 8:54am
Subject:
RE: (Spoilers) Initial Reactions and Discussion for Kingdom of the Crystal Skull
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Princess_Tina, NZPoe raises a valid point. Its obvious you love the film and don't think it has any major flaws, or flaws worth discussing; its obvious because you feel the need to remind everyone of this whenever any sort of discussion about potential "flaws" arises. It stemies discussion and is annoying as hell. Thats good that you think the film is effectively perfect from the standpoint of any sort of critical dissection, but since you have made that viewpoint known after virtually every single post to the contrary I suggest you step aside now and let people intelligently discuss this angle. Because your continued presence to drag this around in circles makes me not want to come here. If you think there aren't flaws worth discussing then you have no reason to continually interfere with the discussion of them.
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I'll swallow your soul! --------------------------------- If you're gonna die, die with your boots on! -------------------------------- author of The Secret History of Star Wars http://secrethistoryofstarwars.com
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Princess_Tina
Registered:
May '01
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Date Posted:
6/16 8:58am
Subject:
RE: (Spoilers) Initial Reactions and Discussion for Kingdom of the Crystal Skull
- Date Edited:
6/16 8:59am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Princess_Tina
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Sorry, zombie, but I happen to disagree completely with you. Any serious discussion of a movie should involve all aspects of it, not only the things that some people don't like. There is a lot to like in Indy 4, and I very much like to discuss the great things about Indy 4. I've enjoyed reading Tonic's responses immensely, because his views and mine are so very much alike. 
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Juan-King
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
6/16 10:54am
Subject:
RE: (Spoilers) Initial Reactions and Discussion for Kingdom of the Crystal Skull
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you know all this talk about how you're supposed to just suspend your disbelief makes me wonder if all films are great , I mean this argument could work for Gigli , showgirls , Ishtar etc.
why bother making a decent film if you can just blame the audience .
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Princess_Tina
Registered:
May '01
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Date Posted:
6/16 11:05am
Subject:
RE: (Spoilers) Initial Reactions and Discussion for Kingdom of the Crystal Skull
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Juan-King posted:
you know all this talk about how you're supposed to just suspend your disbelief makes me wonder if all films are great , I mean this argument could work for Gigli , showgirls , Ishtar etc.
why bother making a decent film if you can just blame the audience .
Suspense of disbelief applies particularly to movies with strong elements of fantasy, fiction, and fantastic adventure like Indy. Obviously all movies require it, but these genres particularly more.
Indy 4 is in a category very different from the other movies that you've just mentioned, which generally received very poor critical response and which were also IIRC box-office flops. Indy 4 was well received by most critics and is on track to become one of the biggest box office hits of the year, if not the biggest.
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Go-Mer-Tonic
Registered:
Aug '99
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Date Posted:
6/16 11:16am
Subject:
RE: (Spoilers) Initial Reactions and Discussion for Kingdom of the Crystal Skull
- Date Edited:
6/16 11:16am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Go-Mer-Tonic
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Juan-King posted:
you know all this talk about how you're supposed to just suspend your disbelief makes me wonder if all films are great , I mean this argument could work for Gigli , showgirls , Ishtar etc.
why bother making a decent film if you can just blame the audience.
All I know is that I didn't have to exert much effort at all to suspend my disbelief.
No more than I had to for the previous installments in the series.
If it was too fantastic for you to suspend your disbelief, then that's how you feel about it.
-----signature-----
"...that’s not my job, to make people like my movies. They either like them or they don’t. That’s completely out of my hands.” -Lucas
"At least I will have finished what I set out to do, and at least they will have been good to me." -Lucas
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Princess_Tina
Registered:
May '01
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Date Posted:
6/16 11:47am
Subject:
RE: (Spoilers) Initial Reactions and Discussion for Kingdom of the Crystal Skull
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Go-Mer-Tonic posted:
Juan-King posted:
you know all this talk about how you're supposed to just suspend your disbelief makes me wonder if all films are great , I mean this argument could work for Gigli , showgirls , Ishtar etc.
why bother making a decent film if you can just blame the audience.
All I know is that I didn't have to exert much effort at all to suspend my disbelief.
No more than I had to for the previous installments in the series.
If it was too fantastic for you to suspend your disbelief, then that's how you feel about it.
I feel the same way about that. Indy 4 took no more suspension of disbelief than the other 3 movies. In fact, for me it may have required less than for Temple of Doom and Last Crusade. Don't know if I've mellowed with the years, maybe that's it or maybe not.
The point of all the old movies, serials and matinees of the 30's and 50's, the ones that Lucas and Spielberg used for inspiration, weren't really about realism, you know. They were all about totally fantastic stuff. Little kids like Lucas and Spielberg loved it. Based exclusively on anecdotal evidence, I think it's possible that many people today aren't willing to exercise the same suspension of disbelief with many movies than people the same age would have 50 years ago. It's just a theory, mind you.
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Juan-King
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
6/16 12:24pm
Subject:
RE: (Spoilers) Initial Reactions and Discussion for Kingdom of the Crystal Skull
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Princess_Tina posted:
Juan-King posted:
you know all this talk about how you're supposed to just suspend your disbelief makes me wonder if all films are great , I mean this argument could work for Gigli , showgirls , Ishtar etc.
why bother making a decent film if you can just blame the audience .
Suspense of disbelief applies particularly to movies with strong elements of fantasy, fiction, and fantastic adventure like Indy. Obviously all movies require it, but these genres particularly more.
okey doke - tell me some fantasy, sci-fi films you don't like .
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Juan-King
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
6/16 12:26pm
Subject:
RE: (Spoilers) Initial Reactions and Discussion for Kingdom of the Crystal Skull
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Go-Mer-Tonic posted:
Juan-King posted:
you know all this talk about how you're supposed to just suspend your disbelief makes me wonder if all films are great , I mean this argument could work for Gigli , showgirls , Ishtar etc.
why bother making a decent film if you can just blame the audience.
All I know is that I didn't have to exert much effort at all to suspend my disbelief.
No more than I had to for the previous installments in the series.
If it was too fantastic for you to suspend your disbelief, then that's how you feel about it.
too stupid actually .
I mean driving off a cliff then going over 3 waterfalls , I just felt like they were taking the piss.
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Go-Mer-Tonic
Registered:
Aug '99
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Date Posted:
6/16 12:31pm
Subject:
RE: (Spoilers) Initial Reactions and Discussion for Kingdom of the Crystal Skull
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I don't see how that is all that different from falling out of a plane in an inflatable raft, sledding down the mountain, flying off a cliff and landing in a river for some white-water rafting.
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"...that’s not my job, to make people like my movies. They either like them or they don’t. That’s completely out of my hands.” -Lucas
"At least I will have finished what I set out to do, and at least they will have been good to me." -Lucas
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Princess_Tina
Registered:
May '01
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Date Posted:
6/16 12:40pm
Subject:
RE: (Spoilers) Initial Reactions and Discussion for Kingdom of the Crystal Skull
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Go-Mer-Tonic posted:
I don't see how that is all that different from falling out of a plane in an inflatable raft, sledding down the mountain, flying off a cliff and landing in a river for some white-water rafting.
Bingo!
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battlewars
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
6/16 2:40pm
Subject:
RE: (Spoilers) Initial Reactions and Discussion for Kingdom of the Crystal Skull
- Date Edited:
6/16 2:42pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
battlewars
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It was a fun movie, I felt good after watching it, haven't felt that way about a movie in for a long time.
I guess in the end thats all I care about.
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