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Author	Topic: Intelligently Fitting The newer EU into Established Star Wars Continuity (Or How About a No-Prize)
Genghis12 Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Nov '99	Date Posted: 10/13/00 10:11pm Subject: Intelligently Fitting The newer EU into Established Star Wars Continuity (Or How About a No-Prize)
	Well, the whole credit for having this thread goes to Luckser in the "Why Marvel Comics are an 'Official' Part of Continuity" thread at: http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=1094758&page=2 As for the last part of the title, it comes from the old tradition of Marvel Comics to award a "no prize" for intelligently explaining errors on the part of Marvel, whether those errors were actually typos, misspelled named or continuity problems (wrong color suit, etc.) I do apologize to Luckster for expanding the scope of his idea. However, I think that other items (Dark Forces games, Glove of vader, etc) suffer from the same situation. Now that credit's been given, here is the point. The point of this thread is to INTELLIGENTLY (please no flames, no dumb@$$ "because it sucks" remarks, etc) discuss how the EU can be meshed within the existing Star Wars continuity. First some definitions are in order. We must note that the EU (the Star Wars Expanded Universe) did not come into form as an actual official designation until 1995 (however, in concept it has always existed since the novels and comics from 1977 onward). However, as most people don't necessarily know this, we will extend the "newer EU" definition to include all items back to 1991 as most people incorrectly do. The "established Star Wars continuity" shall be taken to mean the Star Wars universe as it existed prior to 1991 - the novels, the comic books, the role-playing games, etc. There's a full 14 or so years of official stories before Dark Empire or Heir to the Empire ever came into the picture. Now, as many people, officially and unofficially have pointed out. There's some problems. There's some major problems. It is up to us to work out the EXACT details of how these problems can seamlessly coexist. Essential Chronology did an EXCELLENT job at summarizing major events as do Timetales and others. But, let's reconstruct them in detail in a manner that these other items cannot. So our task, should we choose to accept it is to come up with good, intelligent reasons how such contradictions could happen. To be fair, allow me to begin with the state of affairs around 1977. Lucasfilm owned the complete and total licensing rights to Star Wars. As such, they had total control over approvals of work much like they have today. There were several things which Lucas dreamed of tieing into Star Wars as outlined in "Empire Builders" - children's toys, comic books and novels. Of these, all came to fruition - Kenner had the toys, Marvel had the comic books, and Del Rey had the novels... The EU had essentially been born. George Lucas personally saw to it that Stan Lee and Marvel got the comics, and Judy-Lynn Del Rey got the novels. These were Lucas' picks. And they became the established Star Wars continuity (however, always still seperate from Canon). Now, to be fair, I'll throw out an example of a supposed continuity "error:" Marvel Comics issue #28 has a humanoid Jabba the Hutt. This issue was published in 1979, four long years before we actually see how Jabba looks. We have a problem. Jabba the Hutt is a Hutt, a fat, sluglike species of aliens. Now we can approach this from several different angles. 1) The name is incorrect. Perhaps they simply misspelled the name (remember the No-Prize). However, Han gets this crime-lord's debt cancelled and later reinstated. No, ther's probably an easier explanation. 2) Appearance changes with media. That's a given. The movie Jabba the Hutt looks different from a game Jabba the Hutt who looks different from a comic Jabba. The colors are different, the appearance is different, etc. In the movies, for example, Jabba looks photorealistic (at least the ROTJ one does). In the comics, he seems rather flat, 2-dimensionsal and rather "inky" colored in appearance. In the SWRPG games, he's not even in color, just a black and white drawing. In the novels, we can't even see him at all, he's invisible and only appears in our minds. So, which is the real Jabba? They ALL are, even the humanoid one. What matters is just the CHARACTER, not incidental details, like the color of his body, the shape, etc. Because of the Canon heirarchy, we know the movie appearance controls over all others. Therefore, to know what really happened simply insert your picture of the movie Jabba wherever he appears whether its in the comics, the RPG, the novels, etc. There's also a third explanation. Much like there are TWO Mace Windu's - one is a black humanoid Jedi Master and the other is a Squibb (short, furry alien) adventurer. Perhaps like the Mace situation, there is a humanoid named Jabba the Hutt as well as a Hutt named Jabba the Hutt. There's a number of ways this "problem" doesn't have to interfere with anything. So, to repeat, only the creative need apply to this thread. Let's have some more situations and solutions. Anything from the early novels, the RPG, the comics (Marvel and Dark Horse), the novels, etc. Let's make this the home of the whole EU - both "new" and "old"! And remember, no canon, continuity debates - there's enough threads for those. Post only if you have a continuity problem which needs solved or a solution to a continuity problem. -----signature----- ========== Intelligently Fitting The newer EU into Established Star Wars Continuity (Or How About a No-Prize) http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=1111146 "Envy the nations that have heroes. Pity the ones that need them." -- Van Zan
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Valiento Registered: Mar '00	Date Posted: 10/13/00 10:24pm Subject: RE: Intelligently Fitting The newer EU into Established Star Wars Continuity (Or How About a No-Priz
	that jabba the hut(note only one T)was Mosep jabba's accountant(according to ccg and encyclopedia). i don't know why he does but he does go around calling himself jabba the hut, but he is most definately mosep. which bring's up a point, han met up on that fateful day in mos eisely spaceport, with heater(jabba's bodyguard), Jabba the hut(a.k.a mosep), and finally Jabba The Hutt(a.k.a major crime boss). no wonder han was getting sarcastic to the real jabba on his 3rd trip to the spaceport
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Dev Sibwarra Registered: Jun '99	Date Posted: 10/13/00 10:26pm Subject: RE: Intelligently Fitting The newer EU into Established Star Wars Continuity (Or How About a No-Priz
	Maybe that is really Jabba talking. A holonet connection could let Jabba issue orders through a speaker system that that Bothan (or whatever he is) wears.
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Valiento Registered: Mar '00	Date Posted: 10/13/00 10:29pm Subject: RE: Intelligently Fitting The newer EU into Established Star Wars Continuity (Or How About a No-Priz
	mosep was nimbanel, according to the encyclopedia he is:Jabba the hutt's nimbanel accountant, his inside contacts at other crime organizations gave him the ability to disrupt the cash flow of jabba's enemies. the filmed fat hairy man jabba the hut is how i picture heater whenever i listen to the radio drama's
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Dev Sibwarra Registered: Jun '99	Date Posted: 10/13/00 10:33pm Subject: Intelligently Fitting The newer EU into Established Star Wars Continuity (Or How About a No-Prize)
	Oh. I didn't think he was Bothan, but he resembles Fey'lya more closely than Jabba.
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Genghis12 Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Nov '99	Date Posted: 10/13/00 10:39pm Subject: RE: Intelligently Fitting The newer EU into Established Star Wars Continuity (Or How About a No-Priz
	Yes, good save, Valiento. Excellent retroactive continuity fixing on the part of Lucasfilm to "fix" Jabba's humanoid appearance. Hmmm, how about this one from Star Wars Annual #1 (1979)... "Years ago, my friend, during what you humans called the 'Clone Wars' three Jedi Knights saved Skye from destruction. One was Obi-Wan Kenobi; the others, his pupils. (picture showing a blue-skinned mohawked Jedi, Darth vader and Obi-Wan). In gratitude, we swore eternal friendship and fealty to them. Much later, one of his pupils returned. He told us that Obi-Wan and the Jedi Knights were destroyed--by his hand. Then, he invoked our oath and made Skye an Imperial Satarpy...that man was Darth Vader." Now, they avoid the bullet of incorrectly placing WHEN the Clone Wars happened that Zahn seemed to have been hit with. Well, in fact, none of this is really a problem at all. We know Anakin IS Obi-Wan's pupil. We know Darth Vader destroyed the Jedi. We also know that Zahn copied this concept with Vader and the Noghri. Darth Vader forced the Skye into a deal of servitude much like the Noghri were under. Hmmm, in retrospect, there's not really any problem. I'll see if I can't find another one to throw out. Geez, I should also note that the blue mohawked pupil of Obi-Wan looks like an Episode I Adventures character along the lines of Noro Zak or Vel Ardox. But I digress... good solutions thus far. -----signature----- ========== Intelligently Fitting The newer EU into Established Star Wars Continuity (Or How About a No-Prize) http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=1111146 "Envy the nations that have heroes. Pity the ones that need them." -- Van Zan
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Genghis12 Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Nov '99	Date Posted: 10/13/00 10:52pm Subject: RE: Intelligently Fitting The newer EU into Established Star Wars Continuity (Or How About a No-Priz
	Hmmm, I figured I'd certainly find a problem in Marvel #24 - an Obi-Wan flashback story taking place during the Republic when he was a swashbuckling General and Jedi Knight. However, there really wasn't anything wrong with it. Even though the issue was out in 1979, yet flashed back to the Galactic Republic days, it really doesn't contradict anything we've seen. One thing to note, however, is Obi-Wan's use of the Force to guide him through the asteroid belt. This is an eerie reminder of how the later works like NJO DO in fact tie into the existing continuity. Lando's asteroid run in the NJO shows the Jedi kids (Jaina & Anakin especially) using this exact power of Fore-navigation in nearly the same situation - running an asteroid belt. As for the early mentioned Zahn time problem. Several have suggested in the past that the Clone Wars were a series of wars which started much earlier than Ep II and lasted longer. In such a situation, Zahn's wildly incorrect dates in the Thrawn Trilogy can be accepted without much problem. -----signature----- ========== Intelligently Fitting The newer EU into Established Star Wars Continuity (Or How About a No-Prize) http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=1111146 "Envy the nations that have heroes. Pity the ones that need them." -- Van Zan
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Valiento Registered: Mar '00	Date Posted: 10/13/00 11:06pm Subject: RE: Intelligently Fitting The newer EU into Established Star Wars Continuity (Or How About a No-Priz
	one big mistake that bantam has perpetuated which disagrees with lucas canon script notes, is that zuckess and dengar's names are switched.in lucas's note, the cyborg was zuckess, the gand was dengar. marvel switched the naming convention and modern eu stuck with it. but "lucas notes naming convention" was used by the goodwin comics. so if you read classic star wars reprints you will see dengar the cyborg get called zuckess, etc(this can be retroactively fixed by saying that while the skorr was talking to zuckess the gand, he was looking at the dengar the cyborg, and dengar answered skorr before zuckess had a chance to speak). i may be wrong but i seem to remember seeing a package for the gand and it was listed as dengar, and the package for the cyborg was listed as zuckess.() so my point being was because of one mistake marvel made the incorrect naming convention has stuck for the newer EU. i actually prefer this mistake over lucas original intended names it just fit's better.
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Luckster Registered: Sep '00	Date Posted: 10/13/00 11:12pm Subject: RE: Intelligently Fitting The newer EU into Established Star Wars Continuity (Or How About a No-Priz
	Hmm, lmao, well this is pretty close to what I had in mind, but I think I made it clear that I meant the other way around [fitting the comics into the newer EU] This will still work I suppose. Tho what I think we should do is point out all the spots where the Older EU, and if I may coin a phrase, the Peripheral EU, contradict with the movies first, the Post 91 Zahne phenom 2nd, and finally eachother and themselves. In between all that we can come up with various explanations to hide all the cracks. The movies should be the easiest scan to make, ie the jabba thing, the obi's apprentices thing, etc. These things are either very unlikely, simple mistakes that aren't incredibly important, [calling jabba's accountant jabba] or are utterly ridiculous and should either be committed to the trash bin or attributed a brilliant explanation the likes of which can only be originated by the genius commonly found in this forum. These things are given the numero uno importance because the movies are as gl's affiliates have said and many others have quoted, canon. The reason I then place the Later EU 2ndly instead of 3rd is because 1) it was incredibly more informed tho somewhat incorrect anyhow, 2) even ghengis will have to admitt that its the MAIN basis of the progressing storyline. (This is me attempting to not show too much preference for this material even tho I feel its more legit). And in a tertiary postition, the Older EU. Now this stuff is actually pretty good, I've started reading it and I can see why Ghengis defends it so heartily. At any rate, It just LOOKS like its chock full of contradictions with the films and with the books. Now its our duty to point out ACTUAL "errors" that "new" authors have made in contradicting the Old EU, and its also up to us to see if there is any way to salvage the situation. The painful part of this is that the stuff might not be salvageable and might have to be discarded if the sweet lord doesn't bless this forum with some god-like backpedaling. This, tho unapetizing, is not very hard to do. Most of the comics are segmented, with minor development in each issue, but usually nothing major. Hopefully nothing major will need to be discarded. And after that gets all rapped up we can begin to examine the childrens novels and those cursed ewok movies [j/k], and the plot of various games etc. Are yah with me??? MOooooooooOOOooooOoooooOoooooOooooo' Lucky
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Valiento Registered: Mar '00	Date Posted: 10/13/00 11:18pm Subject: RE: Intelligently Fitting The newer EU into Established Star Wars Continuity (Or How About a No-Priz
	"cursed ewok movies [j/k]" these are part of the canon, lucas came up with the plot's and he created the characters so they are canon. lucasfilm has stated they are canon.(their definition was movies i.e. anything with the live actor's reprising their roles,and/or written by lucas(you can count the parts of cartoon series as canon, too, he wrote the outlines for several stories).) so no literature must contradict any of the movies, or the cartoon's the lucas wrote. this does not cover comic book adaptation audio drama's with main characters reprising there roles though(i.e. dark empire audio drama with billy dee williams playing lando), only live action movies, or lucas plot cartoons. lucasfilm, lumps holiday special into this category,aswell because all main actors reprised their roles(lucas may hate it, but for some reason lucasfilm, ltd has made it canon), so no novels can not contradict that movie either.
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Genghis12 Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Nov '99	Date Posted: 10/13/00 11:18pm Subject: RE: Intelligently Fitting The newer EU into Established Star Wars Continuity (Or How About a No-Priz
	Hmmm...first we need to get the problem factually correct. Yes, Goodwin had indeed misidentified Dengar as Zuckuss. But, as you point out, he Sk'orr never actually looks at him while speaking, so Zuckuss the Gand could've been "off camera" (since all of the other ESB Bounty Hunters were hanging around). But, the problem didn't end there... The Kenner action figures had the black/silver droid listed as Zuckuss and the Gand named 4-Lom. Someone had to do something, so we ended up with Zuckuss the Gand, 4-Lom the Droid and Dengar the Cyborg. Your solution is just as valid as any for the Zuckuss/Dengar fiasco. -----signature----- ========== Intelligently Fitting The newer EU into Established Star Wars Continuity (Or How About a No-Prize) http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=1111146 "Envy the nations that have heroes. Pity the ones that need them." -- Van Zan
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Luckster Registered: Sep '00	Date Posted: 10/13/00 11:27pm Subject: RE: Intelligently Fitting The newer EU into Established Star Wars Continuity (Or How About a No-Priz
	Lmao, now that I've rechristed Ghengis's thread with a slightly altered agenda [semantics, same thing ghengis almost said, lmao], I'll bring up an "error", tho as ghengis has said repeatedly, this is just some theft on the part of zahne [lmao]. S'kar the General of imperial forces. Now he alone without the mara look-a-like is enough to make someones head spin. I tend to immediately think of Thrawn as the original and S'kar as the copy, however that just can't be true. S'kar preceeded thrawn by a decade or so. Does that mean that either Thrawn or S'kar aren't legit? Maybe, maybe not. opinion starts here I generally don't like the idea of S'kar, I think Thrawn was a better character and he is/was more important to the current plot line. However, I don't DISLIKE the idea of S'kar. I think they CAN coexist, and it would involve a simple explanation along the lines of "the cheesy holodramatization of Thrawns rise thru the Empire" type reference. I bet most of the contradictions between the comics and the books can be explained this way, but I admitt, it is the easy way out. Anyhow fluffing it, as I like to call it, is dictated by opinion: you liked s'kar you don't like thrawn, this is bad, you didn't like s'kar and you loved thrawn, this is excellent. So while it might be the easy way out its also contradictory and inconclusive. Anyhow its a pitiful attempt at rationalizing, but its also conveinient. Consider it my first submission. Anyhow, here's first mention of S'kar in this thread. And finally, if someone has a better idea as to how to fit S'kar into the continuity without making Zahne look like a dufus, elaborate on S'kar's background to aid and abet yerself. I only glanced over that issue, so I'm not sure what I'm talking about. Lucky
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Luckster Registered: Sep '00	Date Posted: 10/13/00 11:28pm Subject: RE: Intelligently Fitting The newer EU into Established Star Wars Continuity (Or How About a No-Priz
	Hmm, i stand corrected on the Ewok movies, I suppose the lil critters were kind of cute anyhow...lmao Lucky
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Luckster Registered: Sep '00	Date Posted: 10/13/00 11:31pm Subject: RE: Intelligently Fitting The newer EU into Established Star Wars Continuity (Or How About a No-Priz
	Val said in the other comics thread: "the british marvel devilworlds(the only one marvel series that lucasfilm says is apocryphal)" I haven't heard the official rap on this, care to elaborate? Lucky
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Casta Registered: Jun '00	Date Posted: 10/13/00 11:34pm Subject: RE: Intelligently Fitting The newer EU into Established Star Wars Continuity (Or How About a No-Priz
	Ha. The Sk'arr hoopla all over again. The similitude doesn't go any deeper than the skin. One can draw a much better and a more cogent analogy between Jade and Brie.
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Valiento Registered: Mar '00	Date Posted: 10/13/00 11:34pm Subject: RE: Intelligently Fitting The newer EU into Established Star Wars Continuity (Or How About a No-Priz
	Watchmen and From Hell writer Alan Moore leads off an award-winning line-up of creative talent in this series of reprints, never before seen in North America! Taken from the pages of Marvel U.K.'s extremely hard-to-find Star Wars comics magazine of the early 1980s, and something of an anomaly in the Star Wars continuity, these stories feature early work by Moore, Alan Davis, John Stokes, Steve Moore, and Steve Parkhouse.
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