Jedi Council Forums - The Force's portrayal worsens with each movie.

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Author	Topic: The Force's portrayal worsens with each movie.
Binary_Sunset Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 10/28/00 7:42pm Subject: The Force's portrayal worsens with each movie.
	The original 1977 Star Wars is the finest movie ever made. Its sequels, however, are of ever declining quality. The entire EU is worse than worthless; TPM is painful and boring; the Special Editions are nothing less than vandalism; ROTJ is disappointing; and ESB, while an enjoyable movie, dilutes the magic and contradicts the genius of the original. The main reason for this increasing deterioration is the adulteration and exploitation of the Force and of the Jedi. In the original movie the Force was numinous and presented with admirable restraint. Kenobi used the Force to delude weak-minded stormtroopers, and he sensed the destruction of Alderaan; Vader used the dark side to choke Motti and to dimly sense Kenobi on the Death Star; and, of course, in the movie's climax Luke used the Force to destroy the Death Star. And that is about it. When I first saw Luke use the Force in ESB to telekinetically move his lightsabre my ten-year-old heart revolted within me. I was positively repulsed to see rocks, R2-D2, and an X-wing moved in the same way. This is more like a comic book super-power than a mystical energy. Kenobi's ghostly form is crass compared to the doubtfully heard voice in the original. Yoda is an irritating and out-of-place character. Old Ben was the last of the Jedi. This leaves no place for other Jedi (which crop up unceasingly in the EU). The Emperor is incorrectly and prematurely portrayed. Tarkin's words to Vader ("You, my friend, are all that's left of [the Jedi's] religion.") leave no room for an Emperor who knows the Force. Finally, making Vader Luke's father is the single worst decision in ESB, contradicting the letter and the spirit of the original. In ROTJ and TPM the Force is completely presented in comic book fashion, what with all the backflips and constant telekinesis. The religious feeling of Star Wars is traded for super powers. As monsters in horror movies are more terrible the less they are shown, so the Force is more mystical and mysterious the less it is used. Alas for Star Wars. Alas for what might have been. But at least I can still watch the original and be moved by wonder. And I can still imagine the true further adventures of Luke Skywalker.
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justwondering Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 10/28/00 8:57pm Subject: RE: The Force's portrayal worsens with each movie.
	Well I guess everyone is entitled to their opinions....
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Kramer Registered: Jan '00	Date Posted: 10/28/00 10:24pm Subject: RE: The Force's portrayal worsens with each movie.
	I agree with everything except your distaste for ESB. Man, I've never heard anyone dis Yoda. There's something blasphemous about that! -----signature----- Surely you can do better!
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DINVADER Registered: Jan '00	Date Posted: 10/28/00 11:53pm Subject: RE: The Force's portrayal worsens with each movie.
	This guy is in the smallest minority of bashers I've ever seen. Even the usual basher wouldn't agree with most of the things he said! -----signature----- Rick on Talkcity chat 6-3-99 when asked about further enhanced SW SEs A: It is true George did additional work after the Special Editions. George would probably wish those "Archival Versions" may some day be seen in the context of all 6 films."- Rick M.
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JediKnight317 Registered: Sep '00	Date Posted: 10/29/00 1:31am Subject: RE: The Force's portrayal worsens with each movie.
	Exactly what do you like about Star Wars?
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Sith Interceptor Registered: Dec '99	Date Posted: 10/29/00 2:31am Subject: RE: The Force's portrayal worsens with each movie.
	Gee, for a SW fan, you are scathing in your critism. Here's 40 cents........ -----signature----- I memorize the words to the porno movies - this is a new religion to me.
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SueAsideRide Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 10/29/00 2:43am Subject: RE: The Force's portrayal worsens with each movie.
	I agree with the thought that ANH is the most enjoyable movie, and I know I'm in the minority on this one. However, this is where our agreement ends, Binary. ESB brought a little complexity to the story (ie Luke's father, a hidden Jedi master, etc). Can you name another sequel (besides maybe Godfather II) that can even hold a candle to the original? You could probably count them on one hand. The force became more fleshed out in successive films. The reason for it to be so ever-present in TPM was that the Jedi were not yet outlawed and they could display their talents wherever they pleased. In ANH, Obi-Wan didn't have the luxury of announcing his presence as a Jedi without attracting a huge amount of attention. If we didn't learn any more about the force than we knew in ANH, it would be very boring to say the least. -----signature----- GO HABS! Holy **** I hate the Yankees KILL UGLY INTERNET Fly casual
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Darth_Asabrush Registered: May '00	Date Posted: 10/29/00 3:10am Subject: RE: The Force's portrayal worsens with each movie.
	I understand where you are coming from Binary. I too feel ANH is the strongest of the OT (Although ESB is very very close). The force could have remained a little more mysterious and vague. I suspect we will get too much info on the force in the next couple of films (but that's a discussion for another place and time). That is where we part company. I like most people here am a big big fan of the whole trilogy. GL didn't do much wrong! It's good to see a little debate every now and then though!!! Fair play to yer! -----signature----- Scepticism is the beginning of Faith
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Binary_Sunset Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 10/29/00 9:19am Subject: RE: JediKnight317's reply
	I dearly love the original 1977 movie. A. Foster's novelization of Star Wars, though somewhat flawed, adds many valuable insights to the movie. Second, Foster's novel "Splinter of the Mind's Eye", though it shares several of the weaknesses of ESB (such as using the Force in a telekinetic manner) and adds its own weaknesses (such as the absurd lightsabre duel between Vader and Leia), captures better than any sequel (book or movie) some of the enchantment of the original. Third, ESB is very good in large parts of the movie. The spaceship chase through the asteroids is my favorite spaceship scene of all. The battle on Hoth is very praiseworthy. Vader's overall portrayal (not including the Emperor scene and much of the lightsabre duel) is better even than in the original movie. ESB, however, remains largely spoiled for me by its failings. Last, in the beginning of ROTJ it is shown how beautiful a figure Leia can be. I wish in the original movie that she had worn a more sensual costume and had loose, flowing hair. In fact, in the old 1977 campaign posters Leia is shown in a revealing costume. I wish the movie had followed suit.
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Binary_Sunset Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 10/29/00 9:26am Subject: RE: Sith Interceptor's reply
	My criticism of the sequels to Star Wars can indeed seem scathing. My overall attitude, though, is one of sadness. The 1977 Star Wars is pure magic, and I am pained to see its sequels not treated with the care they deserve. It seems that with each new sequel, ever more of the primordial magic is contradicted both in its spirit and in its very letter.
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Binary_Sunset Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 10/29/00 10:02am Subject: RE: SueAsideRide's reply
	Thank you for your considered reply to my post. I am always glad to hear from another person who also likes the original movie best. The problem with the sequels is not that they attempt to flesh out the Force, but that they do so in a way that destroys the magic and is untrue to the original. Telekinesis? That belongs in comic books. Jumps and backflips in lightsabre duels? Comic books again. Compare this with the poise and grace of Obi-Wan Kenobi in his duel with Vader. (On this please see "Lightsabres--fighting techniques" on B Squared's STAR WARS Stuff [www.synicon.com.au/sw/index].) Worst of all are the TPM's Midi-Chlorians. This is not a fleshing out of the Force, but rather a rationalization (and hence destruction) of its mystery. ESB does indeed bring complexity to the story, but it does so by introducing elements alien to the Star Wars mythos. One of the most enchanting scenes in Star Wars is Ben's telling Luke of his father, galactic history, and the Force. This powerful scene started to be rewritten by ESB ("No, I am your father."), went further in ROTJ (Leia the twin sister), and is going off the edge of the cliff in TMP (Midi-Chlorians). Again, instead of developing what is in the original, the sequels contradict and cheapen it. All the rationalizations of this (such as Kenobi telling Luke in ROTJ about "points of view") only make it worse. In short, there are many ways to develop the original and give complexity to the sequels without rewriting and betraying an almost perfectly written story.
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Binary_Sunset Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 10/29/00 10:19am Subject: RE: Kramer's reply
	Thank you for letting me know that you largely share my views. It is encouraging to know of people who see and appreciate the same magic that I do. I am sorry if my criticisms of Yoda seem blasphemous. I try not to offend when I criticize. Yoda, however, is an element of ESB that dilutes the magic of Star Wars. Ben's last words to Luke (both on the Death Star and after Luke destroyed the Death Star) were, "The Force will be with you...always." In well-thought-out sequels Luke would have grown in the Force not by being taught by Yoda or by talking to Kenobi's ghost; rather, through introspection and meditation he would have gradually grown ever more attuned to the Force. Also, consider that introducing Yoda was like letting a malevolent jinni out of a bottle. The Expanded Universe is chock full of lost Jedi popping up. This, of course, contradicts Kenobi's words that "the Jedi are all but extinct." The best and most natural meaning of those words is that Kenobi was the last of the Jedi. By introducing Yoda an unpleasant can of worms was opened.
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Darth_Asabrush Registered: May '00	Date Posted: 10/29/00 11:16am Subject: RE: The Force's portrayal worsens with each movie.
	Hey! What about my reply? -----signature----- Scepticism is the beginning of Faith
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Binary_Sunset Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 10/29/00 11:32am Subject: RE: Darth_Asabrush's reply
	I am sorry. I did not mean to ignore your post. I am glad that the original movie is your favorite, too. I share your suspicions about the next two movies. I will be very surprised if they do not treat the Force with even more incompetence than do the previous sequels. Each one is worse than the one before. Obviously, I have to disagree when you say that GL didn't do much wrong. I wish he never allowed the EU (with the exception of "Splinter of the Mind's Eye", if that counts as EU); I wish he never made TPM and ROTJ; I wish he did not do the Special Editions (though cleaning up the original films was a good idea); and I wish ESB was fundamentally different.
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Waning Drill Registered: Dec '99	Date Posted: 10/29/00 12:17pm Subject: RE: The Force's portrayal worsens with each movie.
	"Last, in the beginning of ROTJ it is shown how beautiful a figure Leia can be. I wish in the original movie that she had worn a more sensual costume and had loose, flowing hair. In fact, in the old 1977 campaign posters Leia is shown in a revealing costume. I wish the movie had followed suit." You and me both, pal.
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dolphin Registered: Nov '99	Date Posted: 10/29/00 12:33pm Subject: RE: The Force's portrayal worsens with each movie.
	You wish the sequals hadn't been made? -----signature----- Jesus(God in flesh) is our only 'savior', i'm heavenbound only b/c of him http://www.geocities.com/lilmacumd/escape.html 95% of statistics are inaccurate and out of context...LOL!
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