Jedi Council Forums - ***Traitor discussion thread*** (warning!!! major spoilers)

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Author	Topic: *Traitor discussion thread* (warning!!! major spoilers)
Miccu_Resea Registered: Mar '02	Date Posted: 7/30/02 9:06am Subject: *Traitor discussion thread* (warning!!! major spoilers) - Date Edited: 6/12/03 4:37pm (2 edits total) Edited By: VoidDancer
	Use this thread to talk about Traitor. Although i have yet to get it, im going on a hunting party to find it. have fun here. EDIT: found it, read it, loved it. -----signature----- I had a childhood in paradise and an adolescence in hell. I have a good reason to fear power. Tyrant's Test, p344 Wraith Seven, 4 hot and ready (FFC) Boredom can be a catalyst of horrible things. --Mistress
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Miccu_Resea Registered: Mar '02	Date Posted: 7/31/02 9:26am Subject: RE: *Traitor discussion thread* (warning!!! major spoilers)
	closes book blink blink Wow. That book is great!!!!!! It totally changed my views on the book, adn the force in general. Vergere's words stilll haunt me: There is no dark side of the force Why the Jedi temple was built on the dark side, but they probably thought it was just he force... Vergere suprised me in this one. She has always wanted to return to the Galaxy she loved, and now can do it through Jacen. She helped Jacen, even though he didnt know it. She taught him her ways, and her ways, not the Vong, helped Jacen sense the Vong. Jacen really developed in this book. he went from a child to an adult really quickly, adn learned to adapt to his suroundings, and how to organize everything. The slave revolt was cool. He stood in the middle of the Ampistaff grove and just stood there, the ampistaffs not attacking him, but attacking everyone else. his old character shone through, helping the Slaves if they got into injury, and he helped the "World brain" start to change the Yuuzhan Vong and their ways. I cant wait to see how Jacen returns to his family GANNER'S dead! He was one of my favorite Jedi. Although he did die a warrior's death, and That saying, none shall pass, reminds me of Monty Python and the Search for the Holy Grail. That was a great book! He was a great author! -----signature----- I had a childhood in paradise and an adolescence in hell. I have a good reason to fear power. Tyrant's Test, p344 Wraith Seven, 4 hot and ready (FFC) Boredom can be a catalyst of horrible things. --Mistress
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Qui-Gone-Drinkin Registered: Mar '02	Date Posted: 7/31/02 10:40am Subject: RE: *Traitor discussion thread* (warning!!! major spoilers)
	yeah, after a week and a half, im finally caught up with the NJO... im really enjoying it, and traitor, wow... loved it too... it was so philosophical... the force is everything, it doesnt take sides, all that, i loved it... kinda makes me think about real life and how stuff works... makes me think, and thats the fun part, it affected me in a way that not many books do.. two thumbs up. and ganner died a nice death... he couldnt have gone in a better way... -----signature----- I'm So Tired of Being Inspired Only When Things Slip Away...
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Miccu_Resea Registered: Mar '02	Date Posted: 7/31/02 10:45am Subject: RE: *Traitor discussion thread* (warning!!! major spoilers)
	Think about it though...Ganner finally opened himself up to his true self; not bottling himself up throught the light side and Luke's teachings, but through Jacen's help and insights, Ganner opened himself up like Anakin did and became one with the force, the true desire of the Jedi. it was a great death for him. It really elivated him. and the added humor of: the statue saying: None shall pass That was the funniest thing. The slave revolt was cool, i though. -----signature----- I had a childhood in paradise and an adolescence in hell. I have a good reason to fear power. Tyrant's Test, p344 Wraith Seven, 4 hot and ready (FFC) Boredom can be a catalyst of horrible things. --Mistress
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arrowheadpodracer Registered: Apr '02	Date Posted: 8/1/02 6:24pm Subject: RE: *Traitor discussion thread* (warning!!! major spoilers)
	Whoa. That book was ......... WHOA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I just put it down about 10 minutes ago. I'm going to collect my thoughts....well, no that could take weeks.... Vergere Rocks. Plain & Simple. One of the greatest moments that I have sooooooooooo been waiting for: "Anakin? Little anakin?...a lord of the sith? What a tragedy...what a waste." FINALLY!!!!!!!--too bad though. I bet by Destinys way, Jacen will be a friggin old school expert & we dont get to hear the conversation. hmmmmmm...fanfic? Ganner rules. I want to redo the figure I made. Jacens is definitely getting a makeover...but I have no idea how. lol I was going to go back & reread some of the others, but this changed everything so much. The force, Good guy/bad guy, CORUSCANT (holy crap). Too much to remember in one post. -----signature----- just a simple man trying to make my way in the universe. (]####[]####[/(++++++++++++++++++++++++++++- I feel like a slice of butter melting on top of a big ole' pile of flapjacks bah rum ba bum bum
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Miccu_Resea Registered: Mar '02	Date Posted: 8/1/02 8:21pm Subject: RE: *Traitor discussion thread* (warning!!! major spoilers)
	You mean Yuuzhan'tar, right? -----signature----- I had a childhood in paradise and an adolescence in hell. I have a good reason to fear power. Tyrant's Test, p344 Wraith Seven, 4 hot and ready (FFC) Boredom can be a catalyst of horrible things. --Mistress
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Jedi_Pilot Title: Former RMFF CR Registered: Feb '02	Date Posted: 8/1/02 8:26pm Subject: RE: *Traitor discussion thread* (warning!!! major spoilers)
	What is in a name? You will find no truth in me. -----signature----- Hmmm, Upgrades Snakes, why did it have to be snakes? Rocky Mountain Fan Force-http://www.rmff.net A force to be reckoned with -You need to get out more.- -We're in another galaxy, how much more out can you get?-
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Miccu_Resea Registered: Mar '02	Date Posted: 8/1/02 8:33pm Subject: RE: *Traitor discussion thread* (warning!!! major spoilers)
	Everything i say to you is a lie... -----signature----- I had a childhood in paradise and an adolescence in hell. I have a good reason to fear power. Tyrant's Test, p344 Wraith Seven, 4 hot and ready (FFC) Boredom can be a catalyst of horrible things. --Mistress
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StarBlazer Registered: Dec '01	Date Posted: 8/1/02 8:34pm Subject: RE: *Traitor discussion thread* (warning!!! major spoilers)
	I'm not looking, I'm not looking! SB -----signature----- Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.
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Miccu_Resea Registered: Mar '02	Date Posted: 8/1/02 8:37pm Subject: RE: *Traitor discussion thread* (warning!!! major spoilers)
	And everything i say to you SB is the truth... -----signature----- I had a childhood in paradise and an adolescence in hell. I have a good reason to fear power. Tyrant's Test, p344 Wraith Seven, 4 hot and ready (FFC) Boredom can be a catalyst of horrible things. --Mistress
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arrowheadpodracer Registered: Apr '02	Date Posted: 8/1/02 8:40pm Subject: RE: *Traitor discussion thread* (warning!!! major spoilers)
	yes I mean Yuuzhan'tar. whoa, whoa, WHOA!! One thing i really like is that the whole force thing is changed. That is HUGE. SUPER HUGE. No dark side/light side. Its all you. Very simple. Its not even really "new". Thats kinda the way its always been. Choose & act. Thats great. The fight scenes were awesome. I could so easily picture what was going on. A very well told story. Who read the Destinys way teaser? -----signature----- just a simple man trying to make my way in the universe. (]####[]####[/(++++++++++++++++++++++++++++- I feel like a slice of butter melting on top of a big ole' pile of flapjacks bah rum ba bum bum
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Jedi_Pilot Title: Former RMFF CR Registered: Feb '02	Date Posted: 8/1/02 8:43pm Subject: RE: *Traitor discussion thread* (warning!!! major spoilers)
	Well duh! The only problem is I now have to wait who knows how long for the rest. -----signature----- Hmmm, Upgrades Snakes, why did it have to be snakes? Rocky Mountain Fan Force-http://www.rmff.net A force to be reckoned with -You need to get out more.- -We're in another galaxy, how much more out can you get?-
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arrowheadpodracer Registered: Apr '02	Date Posted: 8/1/02 9:52pm Subject: RE: *Traitor discussion thread* (warning!!! major spoilers) - Date Edited: 8/1/02 9:53pm (1 edits total) Edited By: arrowheadpodracer
	I found this in a literature thread where people were debating the whole dark/light issue. Its by MWStover - the author of traitor.Its actually fom today too!! pretty cool. I hope this isnt considered plagarizing(sp?) Without casting my authorial weight on either side of the debate, I would like to point out that ALL OLD REPUBLIC JEDI LIE WHEN THEY HAVE TO. Qui-Gon. Obi-Wan ("Darth Vader killed your father") Kenobi. Yoda who conceals his identity from Luke, even though he already knows who Luke is. Remember who Yoda was talking to: the extremely powerful but untrained son of the incredibly powerful Lord of the Sith. Does anyone honestly think he would have said, "Eh, a little anger here and there never hurt anybody, so long as you don't let it run your life?" even if it happens to be the truth? One of the things that Yoda would have understood is the the truth is always greater than the words we use to describe it. thats pretty cool -----signature----- just a simple man trying to make my way in the universe. (]####[]####[/(++++++++++++++++++++++++++++- I feel like a slice of butter melting on top of a big ole' pile of flapjacks bah rum ba bum bum
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Red3StandingBy Registered: Mar '02	Date Posted: 8/2/02 9:00pm Subject: RE: *Traitor discussion thread* (warning!!! major spoilers) - Date Edited: 8/2/02 10:26pm (3 edits total) Edited By: Red3StandingBy
	Wow!! Just finished. Traitor is probably the most thought-provoking Star Wars novel ever written. I just love the concept of a SW book centered entirely around one character's journey through hell. Nearly the entire story told from Jacen's point of view, paragraphs and paragraphs of sheer philosophy, pages and pages of just fascinating CONVERSATION between and teacher and student. I'm sure some Star Wars fans will dislike it for this very reason, but for me it's a welcome change, and it's exactly the shot in the arm the NJO needs as it's now entering the home stretch. Some thoughts: 1) Jacen Solo. Clearly he's the hero of the NJO saga now, if there was any doubt before. He's the mysterious Jedi that Luke prophesied would end the war. I am almost smiling now at all the flack he was taking in the fan community from readers who thought Jacen was a sissy who should have died instead of Anakin Solo. Those readers must eat their words now! In this story, he is both an incredible warrior AND a dazzling thinker, in every way Anakin's equal and probably even surpassing his legendary brother. I can't believe the range of what he must go through in this book: A virtual eternity of pain, forced to question everything, descending to the Dark Side, rising from Dark, realizing there may in fact be no Dark (!), deciding WHO HE MUST BECOME. He is totally Neo from the Matrix, the galaxy's greatest hope but he just doesn't know it. When Neo at last declares "my name is Neo," that's the equivalent of what Jacen does at the end of this story, acknowleding his role as the most pivotal Jedi in the galaxy, even if he's still not sure why or how he'll forge that final destiny. 2) Vergere. Creepy for so much of the story, but Stover seemed to finally reveal her "humanity" at the end. Incredibly, her master/apprentice relationship with Jacen, which I thought would be dark beyond belief, has actually evolved by the end of the story into a bond just as strong as that of Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan. In a twisted way, in the final scene of the book, Vergere becomes almost the mother-figure to Jacen that Leia arguably failed to be. 3) The Force. The "there is no Dark Side" revelation just floored me. Though it did come from Vergere, so I'm still not convinced it's entirely "true." But if it is, in some ways it makes things more interesting. It means Anakin Skywalker wasn't "seduced" by the Dark Side; he can't blame the Dark Side. He is fully accountable for everything he did. So is Kyp. So is Jacen when he went haywire. Everyone is now 100% accountable for their choices, good or bad. This concept increases my admiration for the Jedi and enhances my revulsion for the Sith and Dark Jedi. 4) Ganner. My only complaint about the novel, and I don't mean his death. I just have a hard time believing that Ganner wasn't already redeemed. Stover paints him as an insecure man who plays the role of the hero but has no heroic qualities. This is just not the case. Ganner was basically redeemed in Part 2 of Stackpole's novels, and countless times since then. The idea that Ganner is still considered a "joke" by many Jedi didn't sit well with me, and rings false to what previous authors have done with him. Regardless, I guess I can buy the possibility that DEEP DOWN, Ganner still didn't feel redeemed and believed he was a joke. Either way, his death scene was sweet. Which is another problem. Too many sweet Jedi death scenes! Quit killing Jedi! 5) The Future. So what's next? Is Jacen still going to be comfortable counting himself among the Jedi? Or has he surpassed them now, is he something else? Whatever insights into the Vong Anakin Solo had begun to discover, Jacen has cleary mastered now and obviously he will be the turning point in the war against the Vong. But in what role? He half-jokes with Vergere that they are "on their own side now." I assume he'll continue to fight for the Republic, but this line has me wondering if he still feels completely in line with their goals and morality. He "frowns down" at his lightsaber at the end. Does he even need a lightsaber anymore? Has he transcended the use for such a thing? I hope not, but I'm intrigued. Anyway, great book obviously. Right up there with the Stackpole NJO books in my opinion, and that is high praise coming from me.
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Miccu_Resea Registered: Mar '02	Date Posted: 8/2/02 9:28pm Subject: RE: *Traitor discussion thread* (warning!!! major spoilers)
	1) Jacen Solo. Clearly he's the hero of the NJO saga now, if there was any doubt before. He's the mysterious Jedi that Luke prophesied would end the war. I am almost smiling now at all the flack he was taking in the fan community from readers who thought Jacen was a sissy who should have died instead of Anakin Solo. Those readers must eat their words now! In this story, he is both an incredible warrior AND a dazzling thinker, in every way Anakin's equal and probably even surpassing his legendary brother. I can't believe the range of what he must go through in this book: A virtual eternity of pain, forced to question everything, descending to the Dark Side, rising from Dark, realizing there may in fact be no Dark (!), deciding WHO HE MUST BECOME. He is totally Neo from the Matrix, the galaxy's greatest hope but he just doesn't know it. When Neo at last declares "my name is Neo," that's the equivalent of what Jacen does at the end of this story, acknowleding his role as the most pivotal Jedi in the galaxy, even if he's still not sure why or how he'll forge that final destiny. Jacen totally did a one-eighty in the eyes of everyone. He was redeemed fully in this books. He went from thinker to attacker in this one book all at once. it was great... 2) Vergere. Creepy for so much of the story, but Stover seemed to finally reveal her "humanity" at the end. Incredibly, her master/apprentice relationship with Jacen, which I thought would be dark beyond belief, has actually evolved by the end of the story into a bond just as strong as that of Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan. In a twisted way, in the final scene of the book, Vergere becomes the mother to Jacen that Leia arguably should have been. She was trying to play all sides of the board. She went with Vong when they started to envade the galaxy, and switched over to the side of Jacen when she saw that he was going to stop the Vong...She has and always will be a "fair-Weather" player...But id like to see how she plays out in the post Vong era, if there is one... 3) The Force. The "there is no Dark Side" revelation just floored me. Though it did come from Vergere, so I'm still not convinced it's entirely "true." But if it is, in some ways it makes things more interesting. It means Anakin Skywalker wasn't "seduced" by the Dark Side; he can't blame the Dark Side. He is fully accountable for everything he did. So is Kyp. So is Jacen when he went haywire. Everyone is now 100% accountable for their choices, good or bad. This concept increases my admiration for the Jedi and enhances my revulsion for the Sith and Dark Jedi. This totally was the reason why i couldnt put the book down until i finished it. This book totally changed the Views on the force, light and dark. Like you said, Emperor Palpy was in a sense, just as equal as Yoda in his ideas...Just that They had different ways of doing it...creepy. 4) Ganner. My only complaint about the novel, and I don't mean his death. I just have a hard time believing that Ganner wasn't already redeemed. Stover paints him as an insecure man who plays the role of the hero but has no heroic qualities. This is just not the case. Ganner was basically redeemed in Part 2 of Stackpole's novels, and countless times since then. The idea that Ganner is still considered a "joke" by many Jedi didn't sit well with me, and rings false to what previous authors have done with him. Regardless, I guess I can buy the possibility that DEEP DOWN, Ganner still didn't feel redeemed and believed he was a joke. Either way, his death scene was sweet. Which is another problem. Too many sweet Jedi death scenes! Quit killing Jedi! I liked Ganner in this book. he really tied the book together, and helped the Jacen through the idea that he is the Slayer, distracting the Vong so Jacen could get to the world brain. I really liked the part about him saying, None shall pass. Like The knight in Monty Python. But someone had to die. It wasnt going to be Nom Anor, Jacen, or Vergere, so it had to be a previous Jedi. Namely, Ganner. 5) The Future. So what's next? Is Jacen still going to be comfortable counting himself among the Jedi? Or has he surpassed them now, is he something else? Whatever insights into the Vong Anakin Solo had begun to discover, Jacen has cleary mastered now and obviously he will be the turning point in the war against the Vong. But in what role? He half-jokes with Vergere that they are "on their own side now." I assume he'll continue to fight for the Republic, but this line has me wondering if still feels completely in line with their goals and morality. He "frowns down" at his lightsaber at the end. Does he even need a lightsaber anymore? Has he transcended the use for such a thing? I hope not, but I'm intrigued. I cant wait for it either... -----signature----- I had a childhood in paradise and an adolescence in hell. I have a good reason to fear power. Tyrant's Test, p344 Wraith Seven, 4 hot and ready (FFC) Boredom can be a catalyst of horrible things. --Mistress
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Jedi_Pilot Title: Former RMFF CR Registered: Feb '02	Date Posted: 8/2/02 9:33pm Subject: RE: *Traitor discussion thread* (warning!!! major spoilers)
	Well it's obvious that Vergere no longer considers herself a Jedi, since she tells Jacen that Jedi control blocks a certain amount of The Force. I think Jacen still has to determine if he is still a Jedi or something else. His remarks at the end seem to indicate he hasn't decided yet. -----signature----- Hmmm, Upgrades Snakes, why did it have to be snakes? Rocky Mountain Fan Force-http://www.rmff.net A force to be reckoned with -You need to get out more.- -We're in another galaxy, how much more out can you get?-
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