Census Census & Games 2010 Pokemon Draft (your champion: MandaloreYak!)

Set? Ooh...

Let's keep the red, and give it a black background. with a white border if possible.

Oh, and ur up in comics TLI

 

'grats yak.

 

Ty.

 

Even though I was the sacrificial goat to make it happen, I'm proud of you Yakkers!

 

Would you prefer to be taken out into the wilderness?

So, anyway, are we gonna like, start talking about rules and stuff for this thing so it goes better next time?

 

yea, would likely be a really good idea.

for one, destiny bond needs to be figured out what to do with. winning by losing just... kinda doesn't jive with the rest of this draft to me like at all.

i'll get a list of more stuff that i've been thinking about later.

 

Cool. Yeah, I agree about destiny bond, but I think we should first decide what to do about "turns," and how fast pokemon can attack, the effects of trainer cohesion (or lack thereof)... Base things, and build up to problems like individual moves, which may be answered in covering the bases.

 

just said destiny bond now because it is the ONE THING that stuck out the most to me repeatedly.

and i already made a suggestion for the cohesion issue actually. along with the TM/HMs you can prep two pokemon on your team with the trainer so that they know the pokemon very well. like a months worth of fighting with or something like that, so they have actually spent time with it. if you happen to get a pokemon they actually have, they get this, otherwise they have a few minutes with it, and know the move list and that's about it. like the comic draft was last time, three minutes prep with your pokemon so you know the moves. but that's just me for the trainer issue.


others will be commented as i find the time. but to me, to really, really be fun, this HAS to be about more than just the numbers. otherwise just go play the game.

 

TLI and I had some interesting conversations on Destiny Bond. I still don't know how (well I do know HOW) or why it was made out to be a winning move. It relies so heavily on the game's mechanics it should just be totally removed from this stage. It has no place being here. Like TLI said with this realistic battle scenario there is no way for a trainer or Pokemon to know when to use it, there aren't floating health bars or an indicator that says FIRE DESTINY BOND.

Like he said, just looking at the name of the move it shouldn't have ever been misunderstood what it did for this draft, but somehow it was twisted into what it was. Destiny Bond, the two Pokemon are bonded so that if one faints the other does too. I liked TLI's idea he PMed to me about how the Pokemon that is knocked out kind of reaches out as it's last ditch effort to drag his opponent down with him. So at the best, if this lame and cheap move stays in the draft, it should be counted as a draw. And even then there is no point in keeping it. Gengar and anyone that may use Destiny Bond are fine I just think it is pointless for a draft setting. The point of it in game is to keep your team from falling behind whenn you get owned by a stronger Trainers Pokemon, so if he knocks you out you take him down one too, it is even. Here it is pointless because it isn't the same style as the game. If you want to keep the style the game has, each Pokemon stays in the battle until it loses then moves onto the next number we call then by all means keep it in. I actually thought this was a cool idea and we could make it workable but it is something to consider I suppose.

My issue isn't with cheap moves and gimmicks really. My problem is inconsistencies with how moves and matches operate but that is for another discussion, let's fix one thing at a time.

 

that was actually what i was trying to say about destiny bond... that the pokemon using it is still losing. they technically already LOST, and it was still counted as a win. and that... bugged me to say the least.

 

Well, I would agree. I want to agree. Except that, if they wanted the bonder to faint first, they... Could have made it that way. I think it's stupid that the other pokemon faints first, but they did that with the express intent that the other pokemon faints first.

That said, as much as I do want to stick as close as possible to what the moves actually do... That's stupid. So, double-ko is fine with me.

 

As long as we're discussing rules for the next draft, it should probably be taken into account that the fifth generation will be out by the time we start another one, too. So the moves and new elements from those games need to be considered, as well.

 

Congrats, Yak!

 

First off, we should remove all ubers, there is an official list on serebii. Basically these are all broken pokemon, which includes wobuffet, most legendary, and I think metagross... but don't hold me to metagross.

Second, we should remove destiny bond, but the reason why it won matches is because of this:
http://pokemon.wikia.com/wiki/Destiny_Bond

When Destiny Bond is used, if the user faints as the direct result of an attack, the Pokémon that landed the knockout hit also faints. A Pokémon defeated by this move will faint before the Pokémon which used Destiny Bond. If it faints later than that (unless it used this move again), this move's effect will not happen. Destiny Bond does not activate for damage that occurs at the end of the turn, including damage from Leech Seed and Future Sight. In a double battle, both opponents are targeted, but only the one that knocks the user out is affected. In a double battle, if the partner Pokémon causes the Pokémon using Destiny Bond to faint, the partner Pokémon will not be affected.

Then we need to discuss the things the champ brought up.

 

think we already removed most of the ubers, didn't we? other than wobby. and how was metagross broken for this? i'm pretty sure it lost several times.

 

I don't recall metagross ever losing, he sure didn't lose to me. but I don't think we have to remove him either, in a RL setting... Well, actually he's even better, but so are some others. I'm in favor of removing as few as possible. And really, would it have killed us to have the legendary birds and dogs?

If we do he "pokemon stays in till it dies" thing, which I am 100% for, thanks Chim, Destiny Bond isn't really a problem. Just make it a double-ko if the last 2 pokemon die from it. And have draws. A draw wouldn't kill us.

 

Arceus
Darkrai
Deoxys
Deoxys-A
Deoxys-D
Deoxys-S
Dialga
Garchomp
Giratina
Giratina-O
Groudon
Ho-Oh
Kyogre
Latias
Latios
Lugia
Manaphy
Mew
Mewtwo
Palkia
Rayquaza
Salamence
Shaymin-S
Wobbuffet
Wynaut

Those are the 2010 uber list, notice articuno and the other birds aren't on there, but wobby is, and Salamence, who I also thought was OP.


Second, if we go to pokemon stays in til they lose, then does he go back to full health after each match, or are we going to arbitrarily decide what his residual HP will be. I'm not a fan of this, because I can already think of ways to exploit in. Yak, remember that elephant pokemon that literally rolled your whole team, pun intended. I could see lots of bad decisions based on this. Like do stat ups continue across matches, etc. How would Baton Pass work? Yea, pokemon staying in would be a bad idea.

I just say remove Destiny Bond.

 

Probably.

At the very least, if Zapdos hangs around thunderclouds and shoots lightning from there, I'd have a hard time seeing him lose if he got into the air. Also, given certain Pokedex entries:

It'd be worth considering whether to take this as automatically bringing weather effects into battle with them, if we go for realism.

 

Kalar the list you posted doesn't include a large chunk of Pokemon we currently have removed from the list (the legendary dogs, birds, Celebi, etc) does that mean we are reinstating them for the next draft? Because if the guys on your team we unstoppable how are legendaries going to make it any better?

Second, we should remove destiny bond, but the reason why it won matches is because of this:
http://pokemon.wikia.com/wiki/Destiny_Bond

When Destiny Bond is used, if the user faints as the direct result of an attack, the Pokémon that landed the knockout hit also faints. A Pokémon defeated by this move will faint before the Pokémon which used Destiny Bond. If it faints later than that (unless it used this move again), this move's effect will not happen. Destiny Bond does not activate for damage that occurs at the end of the turn, including damage from Leech Seed and Future Sight. In a double battle, both opponents are targeted, but only the one that knocks the user out is affected. In a double battle, if the partner Pokémon causes the Pokémon using Destiny Bond to faint, the partner Pokémon will not be affected.

That is my whole point, the part you bolded there. This move is so reliant on game mechanics and wait whats that.. we don't use them here like... at all. So why, why are we using them here? In any situation regarding double KOs or draws or anything like that in drafts it is treated as such, a draw. Not a win for whoever faints second. It doesn't matter, neither wins the match. But here, it even stats specifically that with this cheap ass move both faint, one before the other. It is put right into the moves description, both faint. It is directly after the move KOs the first Pokemon. Their DESTINIES are BONDED together, if one loses they both lose. It's in the definition! Both. Go. Down. This never ever should have been counted as an 'auto-win move', no one that's weighed in except maybe you Kalar thinks otherwise. Yak hates it, said he wouldn't even use it in his consideration for the matches, TLI obviously thought it was garbage and didn't know how or why it was allowed to be used how it was, Trimaj has said plenty against it as well and obviously I think it is crap.

I say removed it from the draft, any and all of those cheap 'auto-win' moves are out. I'll scour that list and find every cheapo move I can if I have to, but we won't have that fiasco again.

 

perish song probably ought to go as well. i could help you with it possibly if you want.

 

Yeah I mentioned Perish Song and there was one other one too I thought? Anyway, yeah I mentioned it but luckily since it is a turn based only move I think it was ignored. Or who knows why it was ignored? I guess Lapras the slow sea cow didn't have any trouble beating the 2-3 blazing fast fire-types she faced so we didn't need to haul out the cheap cards?

Anything that is 'causes to faint because of X' or 'causes to faint after X occurs' will be removed. No worries of that. GET THAT OFF.

 

In answer to two things...

I think for the sake of fun, and for a good deal of moves and abilities actually meaning something, yes, we should have judges just determine how much HP the surviving pokemon has left, and yes they should keep power-ups. And yes, we should have that, because it makes sense and allows for more strategy.

And then with that, we should keep the double-KO moves because it just moves the match to the next pokemon, it's not as big a deal anymore. I mean, the battles wouldn't even be best of 6 anyway, they'd just be whose pokemon run out first, which would be unique for a draft.

And I think the legendary birds and dogs are fine. They can be caught in the games, anime, manga, etc., and it's not that hard, they aren't special. Launching lightning from the sky is a basic move. That's "Thunder." And I was in favor of having weather effects like Articuno's logically would start anyway, so I'm for that.

 

I don't think it is a good idea to keep them in unless you are taking my idea of rolling matches and running with it. I feel that if we do that though it is going to get too in depth for most of the GMs to handle. Looking for new ways to spice drafts up is great but this is getting into more effort than what the typical GM puts out. We can barely get people to send in numbers once every week or two let alone this level of involvement.

I can think of plenty of ways around it though. Have the Commissioner pick a number at random, 1-6, we will say 4 for this exercise and start with that Pokemon then go to 5, 6, back to 1 ~> 4. That is how I would do it I think, if this is gonna go like this for the next draft that is. Not sure I like the idea more than the current one enough just yet but we will see.

 

I don't even understand what you said.

 

I never said my team was unstoppable, clearly I voted Yak's team over mine. I personally don't have any problem with more power. Chim, could you please lay off all the crying about other people's teams...