Senate Christianity Discussion Thread

The destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah. It's one of the reasons I cited the story in my own response. The other being that it is one of the classic demonstrations (literally; it was first raised in this context by Peter) of God's ability to save the good and punish wickedness.

 

So is there any way to tell the difference between a divine plan and random chance that occurs without any deity's influence?

And if a divine plan takes all individuals' choices into account, then those really aren't our choices. God chose them for us.

 

What are you asking me? If I can discern the intentional pattern in the designs of an omniscient being that designed a plan that could utilize unlimited time, resources, and power? Of course I can't. No one could even begin to comprehend it.

That's one reason why no one uses it as evidence of God's existence. It is something that people who are already Christians reference amongst themselves, because their religion says it exists.

What? Come again?

 

That was me restating my earlier assertion that it is impossible to have both free will and an omniscient perfect god.

 

Yes, I know that you said that. But what logic are you basing it on? Do you have stuff besides what we've already addressed?

 

Aren't scientists getting close to finding if there is some sort of God particle?

 

Besides what I already said earlier about Biblical literalism...

there is also the possibility that God sacrificed his omniscience (as well as not using his power at full capability) so we would have free will.

There is even a chance that God was never completely omniscient/omnipotent either, at least in the way we think about those terms.


(all assuming God exists, of course)

That just deals with the origin of mass as the universe as we know it, not with God. The guy who coined the phrase "God particle" originally wanted to call it the "Goddamn particle" because it was so hard to find. And it was discovered last year.

 

That just deals with the origin of mass as the universe as we know it, not with God. The guy who coined the phrase "God particle" originally wanted to call it the "Goddamn particle" because it was so hard to find. And it was discovered last year.[/quote]

They should really call it the "Forty-Two" particle. Life, the Universe, and Everything...

 

I would have thought it to be obvious.

Let's say you want to get into your car and go for a drive. You do so, and in the process run over a kitten. If we are to assume God is omniscient and knows everything that has happened and will happen, this means at the beginning of Creation, God decreed that Wocky would drive over a kitten on August 1st 2013. Your "choice" was chosen for you long before you even existed. You were given the illusion of choice, but an omniscient god will always know what your decisions are. And God created this kitten knowing you would run it over.

So who really chose for you to get into the car? You, or God?

 

What? No it doesn't. God doesn't have to make something happen in order to know about it. I' m not entirely sure you know what "omniscient" means.

 

God directly controls all aspects of the universe, doesn't he? That includes your decision to go for a drive.

If you think otherwise, this shows that God is not omniscient.

 

No and no.

Also, I think you meant "omnipotent" there.



If God is omnipotent (not a given), he doesn't have to be using all of his power. He could have just written the laws of science, and just worked within those rules to intervene on rare occasion.

 

Yeah, that's the thing with all these 'omni' arguments. One doesn't have to believe in the Omnipotence or Omnipresence of God to be a christian.

 

I'd hope you'd certainly concede, though, that the prophets and apostles always taught us this: "And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him."

 

1 John 3:19-20 shows God is omniscient.

 

But god's omniscience does not mean God has responsibility, it just means he knows everything. If he is omnipotent it doesn't mean he also HAS to control anything. I think the main thing here is that you mostly don't seem to understand what exactly omniscience and omnipotent entail, and you don't have a firm understanding of the Christian relationship to those principles as aspects of their deity.

Once again, big time Atheist (lapsed Episcopalian, is that a thing?) talking here. There are plenty of bones to pick with Christian religion. This is among the least (and maybe the stupidest?) of them. Basically what you're arguing, from your perspective, is "The imaginary rules of the imaginary being I don't believe in aren't fair!" And you aren't even making that argument effectively! Why not take on ACTUAL Church policies of today? Like condoms in Africa, or the attitude towards homosexuals? If you're an atheist, getting bent out of shape over what you (incorrectly) think about what Christians believe about their god is like taking to the streets to protest Klingon diplomatic policy during the First Romulan War, for all that it matters to your worldview.

Mainly what it sounds like is that you think you're smarter than anyone who has religious faith and your trying to prove it by throwing around your interpretations about the arcana of heavenly orders. Arguing the irrationality of faith is like bringing a logic to an intuition fight. Irrationality is the point and you're not going to win it no matter how hard you yell about how unfair the idea of God is. Stake out real world points to criticize religion!

 

No. Having the ability to directly control everything is different from actually doing so.

For instance, the President of the United States can veto any bill that comes out of Congress. However, that doesn't mean he actually does. Nor does it mean he would magically lose his power to do so if he ever refused to veto something. Or again, if you can carry 100 pounds, that doesn't mean you have to carry that much weight on your person at all times. It simply means that should the need arise to do so on some occasion, you would be able to do it.

We'll skip the fact that, as both Ghost and Recession Spending pointed out, that you aren't using the right word at all. I won't retread that discussion here since the latter did such a thorough job of demolishing it.

 

Then why worship him?

 

he's not responsible for the individual acts of evil undertaken by man, no, nor the fact earthquakes destroy cities etc, but he is responsible insofar as he knew by creating mankind that the majority of his creation would inevitably commit evil acts, not believe, and inevitably doom themselves to everlasting torment. he knew that the majority of his creations would fail (the right way is narrow, etc.). if everlasting torment in hell is to be believed, then those burning within forever would have been better of not existing. and they didn't choose to live.

 

Again, quoting Bible verses isn't going to help. I don't know a single Christian who actually believes everything in the Bible. And if they do, they're crazy.

 

I've read the Bible cover to cover and have never found anything I can't believe. Are there any particular passages you'd like to ask me about?

 

You take the biblical creation story literally?

 

The next question will be WHICH Biblical creation account do you take literally

 

Just to be clear, my main point here is still that us atheists getting upset about the mythopoetics of faith they don't have and heavenly orders they don't believe in isn't really the best argumentative tactic against religion. Chances are you aren't going unconvince anyone of their faith by yelling at them about how stupid it is. Better to demonstrate that morality and ethics are not inherently bound up in religion, show them how their religion has been an occasional force against good in the world, and let them unconvince themselves if they will.

 

Yes I do. And when I read it I recognize that it is extremely vague in scientific terms. Exactly how did God create the heavens and the earth? With a big bang? Maybe so. Did it take seven "days?" Yes, but I know that day can also stand for terms like "era" or "age." Genesis is an account of creation written for people who had very little understanding of science and as such it lacks scientific details. But the facts of the story are laid out in simple terms.