Did anyone not like the story of TPM?

I been thinking some, and this post by GoMer.....

"George delivered the goods, TPM IS a great addition to the saga. But you have to want to see that to be able to.

If you close your mind off, and assume Lucas screwed everything up, then of course you will never get to the point where you "get" TPM, because your focus is only on citing Lucas' faults in making it, without ever questioning your ability to soak it up."

..... really pissed me off, and I wanted to respond to it. Before I could, everything I wanted to say was said. Now, the next snippet was revealed from him, along the lines of how he hoped we could learn how to watch a SW movie. It seemed a bit grating, but then he said he just wants us to be able to enjoy the next movies. Diction aside, I think that's a noble statement, but Sir GoMer,

YOU are a fanatic, like the man said. I finally figured it out, I think. You DO defend SW the way some defend religion, and we all know where *Israel cough Israel cough* that can lead. I think - and I say this with NO disrespect - you should take a step back and look AGAIN at where we're coming from. We're not saying you're stupid, but you're definitely using cave-logic to argue your point. I want EVERYONE to lay off Gomer if you don't mind for a sec. Let him take in everything we've said. That will be our responsibility. GoMer, it is yours to look closely at what we've said in return. For real, man, take a good, long, solid gander at what all was said, setting aside any grating comments (mostly from me) that were directed at you. Go through the WHOLE thread, and take all the points made by us into consideration. Try to see where we're coming from.

Here's the analogy that best represents the situation here for you GoMer (and it's a true story):

I used to work in a bar (never mind which city) where there were TONS of Marines. I had gone out to this bar a lot before I asked for a job as a doorman. It was a hoppin place all the time, even in the daytime. So one night, this Marine (18-19 yo if that) comes up to me a little tipsy and shouts, showing off to his buddies, "What's the most dangerous thing in the world????" I told him I didn't know with a shrug. He came back, very agitated, with, "STUPID ASS!! A UNITED STATES MARINE!" I laughed a little, and him and all his friends took it TOTALLY the wrong way. Now I had let this kid in against the rules JUST because he was a Marine. He knew I did him a favor, in fact, by letting him in even though he wasn't 21, so he could have fun with his buds. Normally, however, if someone disrespects the security with that kind of business, they get thrown out on their ass. I didn't necessarily want to do that, because the kid was green, and because he was a Marine. I didn't know the kid, but I knew a lot of the other guys he hung out with, and they knew me. But when I laughed at their Corps (which was how they took it) when they were making a claim like this, they got really mad. So what to do? I looked at the kid straight and said, "Actually, a dumb Marine like you is the SECOND most dangerous thing in the world. Wanna know what the first is?" He puffed up in my face and I pushed him back. I said, "A smart bouncer." He looked at me, kind of dumbly, after which I dragged him out by his head to the police car that was sitting out front. I don't know what happened to him, but there's only so much you can do. I do feel a little bad about what probably happened to him later on, but in the end, I wouldn't ever take it back. He was a blind follower and didn't take into consideration the potential consequences of his actions.

Gomes, I'm not saying you are necessarily like this guy, but fanatics of any kind can be dangerous. The problem for the fanatical is knowing when they've gone too far. I say this in total honesty and an attempt at peace: GoMer, take this into consideration, please.

 

All I am saying is you have to entertain the possiblity that your expectations got in the way of seeing what TPM really is. If the only conslusion you can ever come to is that George Lucas screwed it up, then you will always miss what it isn't, instead of opening yourself up to what it is. TPM is in the can. Sure you may think I am defnding this like a religion, but the reality is, I am trying to get you guys to realise that for better or worse, TPM is what it is. You can either learn to appreciate the good things it has, or forever lament what it could have been. Personally, I can't for the life of me understand why you people were "let down". When I saw the film, I was transported effortlessly back to that galaxy far far away. It was like a homecoming for me 20 years in the making, and I am sorry you guys had "issues", but they really are YOUR issues. If you would just get over your superiority complex over Lucas, you might see that it is in fact a really decent, if not great movie.

Am I implying you are incapable of appreciating a SW movie? I guess I am at the very least suggesting it is possible. The reality here is, you WERE unable to appreciate it, at least not as much as I do.

Even the smartest people get hung up on what they think they know. Can't you give Lucas some credit for the classic trilogy and -try- to see what he was trying to do, instead of assuming you know what he was going for but he just screwed it up?

Maybe, just maybe, he is going somewhere with these things you had trouble with. I mean at the very least, can't you admit the possiblity that you were a bit hastey in some of your long standing judgements?

I am sorry if this piusses you off. Maybe I am just trying to challenge you enough to question YOUR beleifs.

I have done nothing for the last two years here BUT entertain other opinions. Part of the reason I spaend so much time discussing this with anyone who will listen is just to be sure I am not blindly accepting TPM.

Again, it is not that I do not hear your "issues", I simply find them to be silly adult hangups that you just can't have if you want to enjoy a SW film. You will have to accept the dicey acting and cheesey lines, if you ever want to be able to let go and run with it.

I would never say you are wrong, I am just saying TPM isn't for eveyrone. I would like to think that it would be for all SW fans, but obviously, some people aren't cut out to appreciate it. That is not a comment on one's cranial ability. Merely the ilumination of the fact that not everyone likes the same things.

 

Mormegil? What the....

???

?

 

"All I am saying is you have to entertain the possiblity that your expectations got in the way of seeing what TPM really is."

And all we're saying is that we, as reasonably intelligent, self-aware adults, factored that possibility in LONG ago and many of us have long since come to the conclusion that this really was not the issue.

The thing is, you continue to start every argument from the proposition that TPM as a movie is unquestionably above reproach, so it MUST be our faults for being too dim to know how to watch a new SW movie properly. Look, I was 15 when ROTJ came out. Talk about being at a point in my life where I was (as is often the case at that age) more neurotic in my worries about appearing "cool" than at any other point in my life. If there was ever a time that Lucas' penchant for cutsiness was going to turn me away from a SW film due to my own skewed perspective, it was then. It did not. Even with the friggin' teddy bears running all over the place I LOVED ROTJ.

Now fast-forward to 1999. I was 31 years old, my life had gone all kinds of weird and interesting directions in the intervening 16 years, and with all the other far-flung interests I'd developed in the meantime, my interest in and enjoyment of Star Wars was still there. It had kinda vanished for awhile at some points, but it was always there to wake up again. I could look back at the OT and always have fun watching it, even though I realized that they weren't the apex of screenwriting prowess, and always felt that there was a certain level of quality, of rhythm and FLOW to each individual film. It wasn't just from familiarity with them either... one of my interests has long been improvisational music, and I'm certainly no stranger to finding flow and rhythm in the unfamiliar or in a new re-working of something that is familiar.

When I saw TPM, I simply did not feel the flow that should have been there. It honestly felt like, to put it in musical terms, a favorite old musician's first concert of his first tour in a decade or so... the fingers and the instrument were working, but they were just a little too stiff and rusty to really swing. And at this point the big question for me is, is Lucas actually past it, or did he just need TPM as a warm-up? I'm cautiously optimistic that his second time out will be more up to speed. I guess if I share any blame for not liking TPM it's merely that I didn't expect Lucas to be as rusty as he apparently was when he made it.

 

All I am saying is you have to entertain the possiblity that your expectations got in the way of seeing what TPM really is.

First you tell us that our minds were too closed to watch the film (you said this on page 9). Now you tell us that our expectations were too high, implying that our minds were too open. What's the deal here? Am I missing something? Didn't several of us just tell you that we saw the movie with the greatest anticipation of any movie we had seen? We came in with very open minds and hoped (expected) to see a movie that would transport us away to A GFFA. We were disappointed because we didn't like the movie. Not because our expectations got in the way.

If the only conslusion you can ever come to is that George Lucas screwed it up, then you will always miss what it isn't, instead of opening yourself up to what it is. TPM is in the can. Sure you may think I am defnding this like a religion, but the reality is, I am trying to get you guys to realise that for better or worse, TPM is what it is. You can either learn to appreciate the good things it has, or forever lament what it could have been.

We have long debated the parts of TPM that we like. The political aspects and the duel are two things that come to my mind right now. So yes, we opened our minds and found things that we appreciated about TPM. But when one character constantly upstages the others with childish antics, when the very epitome of evil is shown as an annoying little brat, and when the actors all look bored and stale (just to name a few problems) we are allowed to discuss what might have been. We don't have to like everything in the movie. It's our right as fans.

Personally, I can't for the life of me understand why you people were "let down". When I saw the film, I was transported effortlessly back to that galaxy far far away. It was like a homecoming for me 20 years in the making, and I am sorry you guys had "issues", but they really are YOUR issues. If you would just get over your superiority complex over Lucas, you might see that it is in fact a really decent, if not great movie.

This is just your opinion. You seem to have a hard time accepting the fact that other people have a different opinion than yours. Our "issues" are not personal, as you seem to think. There have been a lot of people who find the same exact faults with the movie. Perhaps the issue is that we refuse to just accept the movie as "great" because it is SW. We have viewed it several times, and we choose to critique it as we see fit.

Am I implying you are incapable of appreciating a SW movie? I guess I am at the very least suggesting it is possible. The reality here is, you WERE unable to appreciate it, at least not as much as I do.


You talk like it is a defect in our head that keeps us from liking the movie. Incapable of liking a SW movie? If that movie is TPM, which I consider to be the borderline of a SW movie, then you are correct. But you wording sounds like you think we hate all SW movies, which is just blatantly false. And to state that we were unable to like TPM is very flammatory, because you are attacking our personas. I think it is you that has the superiority complex. You think you are superior to everyone who dislikes TPM for whatever reason.

Maybe, just maybe, he is going somewhere with these things you had trouble with. I mean at the very least, can't you admit the possiblity that you were a bit hastey in some of your long standing judgements?

Maybe he is going somewhere with the prequels, but then why set one 10 years before the rest? It feels detached from the rest of the story.

Again, it is not that I do not hear your "issues", I simply find them to be silly adult hangups that you just can't have if you want to enjoy a SW film. You will have to accept the dicey acting and cheesey lines, if you ever want to be able to let go and run with it.

No, we don't have to accept anything. The acting of ANH, which was decent at best, is far superior to TPM. And the dialogue

 

You are wrong to expect Lucas to change this to suit your needs.

You are absolutely right when you say that your opinion of TPM is not wrong. It is unfortunate unless you didn't want to enjoy it.

If you have questioned yourself and can only come to the conclusion that Lucas didn't make a movie you can appreciate, then that is fine.

I am sure that is how Martha Stewart feels about A Clockwork Orange. That doesn't mean Kubreric screwed it up, it means she is not a fan of the film.

Plain and simple, if you have questioned everything in your mind, and the fact remains that you cannot enjoy the film, then you have to entertain the possiblity that this just isn't meant for you.

It isn't like Lucas thought you would love Jar-Jar or Anakin's sweetness. He just didn't make this to cater to what YOU would want.

Not wrong, just not for you.

 

"I hope you guys learn how to see a new SW movie before there are no more new ones to see."

(Stryphe snickers quitely). Oh, I for one took a three week class on how to watch SW the month before TPM was released. I'm planning on retaking it again in April just to be sure, but given the title, I think I'll need at least a 2 month intensive training this time.

Aaaaannnyyway, I for one, really enjoyed TPM when I saw it the frst four or five times. I wasn't until about six months later that something really started to bother me about it, and I started noticing the way certain things just didn't "fit".

As for Anakin not bonding with anyone, what a bunch of horse-hockey. Didn't Ben say he was a good friend? Oh, wait a minute, that's right, everything Ben said in the CT's was pretty much a big lie. My bad.

 

You are absolutely right when you say that your opinion of TPM is not wrong. It is unfortunate unless you didn't want to enjoy it.


Do you just not read our posts Gomer? I have stated clearly, several times, that I REALLY, REALLY wanted to like this movie. That's why I wasted money seeing it in the theaters 3 times. Come on man, at least read our posts if you plan to refute them!!!

 

Go-Mer: "I am sure that is how Martha Stewart feels about A Clockwork Orange. That doesn't mean Kubreric screwed it up, it means she is not a fan of the film. "

Very poor analogy. You seem to conveniently forget that (whether you think so or not) we are all Star Wars fans. We already appreciate Star Wars and it is in our personal taste to like Star Wars -- that is why we are here. Was A Clockwork Orange ever in Martha Stewart's personal tastes but she thinks that Kubrick just "screwed it up"? Hogwash. It was never her thing to begin with.

Let me use your own argument (i.e. that there is nothing wrong with TPM -- we just fail to appreciate it) from the opposite side for a minute. I will call myself the Anti-Gomer:

"TPM is a pile of bantha dung and there is really nothing good about it. Those who didn't like it saw it for what it was, and those who liked it just aren't open-minded enough to realize that it stunk."

So would you take me seriously and think that I had a valid argument by saying that? Heck no, and well you should not. It is a non-argument and doesn't even consider the fact that those who liked it may have legitimate reasons for liking it. But you are trying to make us swallow the same argument, just from the opposite point of view. And really, I think you're smart enough to know better.

 

HAAAAAH!

Go-Mer lowers his guard of the padded cell (i.e. takes his meds) and I sneak out the door!

Helloooooo there fellow Bashtards!

Man! I just completed the most asinine move of my life!

Namely, I actually read this thread from wire to wire!

Go-Mer, you've been doing some GREAT work here while I've been in captivity in your cranium! All the classic Gusher food group arguments are excellently represented... and why shouldn't they be with the Master, my one-and-only alter ego, at work!

Damn, Gomey! You got deze boyz spinnin' like a TOP!

If it's a religious war you want, then just argue with Go-Mer and it's a religious war you GOT, by god! I used to consider falling on my sword to save us BOTH the agony; yet, I have far too much respect for the insanity.

"If you could just for a moment quit obsessing over what TPM is not, and instead look to see what it IS, then perhaps you have a chance." -- GMT (me!)

Well, ummmm..... let me check here... yup!

What we got here ladies and gentlemen is a bunch of poppycock masquerading as a STAR WARS Episode! So THERE, Gome! Errr... I mean me... ummm, whatever. Like Rick McCallum I agree with you/me COMPLETELY!

Oh NUTS! The meds are wearing off!

Well, sorry boyz, gotta go back to the cell. I'll talk to you cats later. And you can get back to the merry-go-round.

Say hi to Gomey for me!

We don't get to see much of each other these days.

CIAO BABY!!!

 

Did that last post make sense to anyone?

 

Quaff's my boy.

Look, this isn't any kind of a war, let alone a holy one. I liked the film, despite the fact that is isn't perfect. Just like the classic trilogy. Some of you say that my Martha didn't like Clockwork Orange analogy doesn't fit, because we all liked the classic trilogy. But I say that is part of the reason Lucas started with the classic trilogy. He knew more people would be able to get into it than they would the prequels.

But Lucas didn't screw this film up. As far as I can tell, it adds quite a bit of texture to the SW saga. Could some things have been done better? Sure, but it is the same with any movie. You can either learn to accept it as it is, or you can spend the rest of your days lamenting what it could be.

Lucas was happier with the result of TPM than he was with the classic trilogy installments. He said that while he was about 90% satisfied with the way TPM came out, he never got above a 75% satisfaction level with the classic trilogy installments. That doesn't sound like a guy who didn't make the film the way he wanted it to be to me.

What is happening here is some of you actually expected this to be what you wanted instead. Perhaps TPm isn't for you. Perhaps it is for people like me who can put my expectations aside and just let the man tell his story. You guys sound like 5 year olds who constantlty interrupts their fathers when telling a bedtime story to tell him he is telling it wrong. If you don't like the story Lucas is telling you, then by all means come up with your own.

 

I'll say it again, did that post by Quaff (the "Good" Go-Mer, persona), make sense to anyone?

 

So long as Go-Mer snarfed his milk I don't care if nobody else got it!

Let's just say that all the classic ingredients are in this thread for me to argue with Go-Mer for weeks on end (I should know, I've done it before) but, like Owen Lars, I now simply refuse to get involved.

Besides, I'm sick of arguing with myself.

 

If you're at all familiar with Quaff's style it did, more or less.

Welcome back Quaff -- we've missed ya!

 

Perhaps TPm isn't for you. Perhaps it is for people like me who can put my expectations aside and just let the man tell his story. You guys sound like 5 year olds who constantlty interrupts their fathers when telling a bedtime story to tell him he is telling it wrong. If you don't like the story Lucas is telling you, then by all means come up with your own.


If I had a billion dollars like GL, and 16 years to think up the story like GL, then I would damn sure think of and make a better movie than TPM. In fact, some people have! Darth Geist, for one, wrote a great fanfic story.

Why should I put my expectations aside? We were given 3 movies that said "Look, this is what a SW movie is. " Now we're given one movie that says "Look, forget everything I just told you. "

Yeah, I'm disappointed. But is my discussion of the faults of TPM any more saddening than someone who claims there is a deep meaning to every frame of film in TPM? Hardly. In fact, I am opening up my mind to say what I think, and not just stating, as you so often do Gome, "GL did it right, and that's that".

Nobody's right, nobody's wrong. But the presentation and argumentation makes all the difference.


DS-I don't think we were supposed to understand it. That's just how he writes sometimes!

 

GL said that his problem with the CT (and he says this in MULTIPLE interviews) was the technilogy. For example, he hates the cantina scene because he ran out of money when making ANH and had to use what he considers cheap rubber masks. Also in interviews, he's continually compaired himself to Luke Skywalker, which suggest to me that he really likes the characters of the CT. The big difference from the CT and the PT is the technology. Now the effects are just like he likes them, and he still controls the story. If that's his big concern, the effects, then OF COURSE HE LIKES TPM BETTER! However, many of the fans are looking beyond that and concentrating on the story and/or characters. I really think many fans don't judge TPM the same way GL does, good or bad

 

No more than Mormegil's last...

 

If you don't like what the Lucas is cookin, get the hell out of his house.

Thats a lot of talk Stone. Alot of ifs as well. Why don't you go show Lucas how to do this. I dare you to win the lottery and make a movie that sells better than Menace.

I defy your ability to deliver what George could not.

You self-important fanboy.

Stryph, he is happy with TPM because the technology exists to tell his story the way he wants to. To him the story is the biggest thing about these films. He has also said that in the entrire saga, Anakin is his favorite character.

 

Wow, I have never started a thread that gets this many replys!

--Joey

 

Thats a lot of talk Stone. Alot of ifs as well. Why don't you go show Lucas how to do this. I dare you to win the lottery and make a movie that sells better than Menace.


If I had the rights to the most beloved series of movies in history, and if I won Powerball like 10 straight times, then your damn right I would make a better movie. Hell, I'd hire some of the people on these forums to help pen the script!

You self-important fanboy.

Now you know what we think when we read your posts!!! The truth hurts, don't it???

 

I doubt you could make Star Wars, even with a billion dollars. Lucas is the creator, he is the man. You can't say, "I would make Citizen Kane better if I had the money" Money is only one part of it.

 

Obviously in TPM's case, money wasn't enough. It didn't help the movie at all, except for the special effects.

I forgot to add that I would need 16 years to plan and write the script, then wait for technology to catch up with my ideas.

 

Hey, I am not the one who thinks he is better than George Lucas. I don't even feel better than any of you. I just happen to be able to enjoy this film better than you do.

 

I just happen to be able to enjoy this film better than you do.

You say that like it's a bad thing.