EVERYONE READ THIS- THE PRESIDENT!!!

Here we go again...

I am out for a few days and like magic...something happens.

I am not here to agree or disagreee with Devan or anyone else. It is not my job to decide wether or not a topic is good for the boards. The supreme powers that be seem to do that just fine...(without telling anyone in charge first).

Religion is a very tough subject to bring up. Most everyone in this group has his or her own belief. I spent the morning in church for early Easter service. That is my belief.

I know others who are my friends have totally different beliefs and set values. I respect them, the way I expect to be treated.

The world is angry enough right now. How do we expect to get along with other countries when we have such basic arguments on a Star Wars thread!

I highly suggest that we stay away from ANY religous threads. I know people belong to other boards- I wish them to take discussions there. But as far as a thread on these boards. Unless it is to wish people a happy holiday, or to ask a particular question in an established thread.
Please err on the side of exrteme caution...

I am not mad at people, and trust me enjoy a good debate- more than most. But this always leads to some fighting, disagreements, or worse hurt feelings. I NEVER want to see a member of this forum leave because of things said or stated on some stupid thread.

Again I am not judging people nor am I trying to single people out. I must take the high road. I have to remain neutral. And this is the only way I can think of that will ensure no hurt feelings from other members or the people that watch the boards.

I want everyone to enjoy this forum. People of every age and gender. Religion and belief.
I want us all to respect one another and most of all try to keep this club going. Over the past 8 months many have stoped writing or getting involved.

Why? Who knows. But I know some have not liked all the strife of this club. To them, I am sorry.

But hopefully everyone understands why I have asked this.

The less friction, the better we are. In private I hope we have a great debate- I love them. But not for the public to see.

Thanks for listening, reading and most of all belonging. We are all fans, and as fans we all have a common ground. To get along and spread the word of Star Wars. The one, true film!


Eric Larson
President of the MC.

Closed per CR request

 

Christ Eric, calm down. It isn't a big deal. You don't need to make a big speech.

 

I do agree with the general sentiment - avoid religous threads here. We can discuss them elsewhere.

 

I agree with Eric for many reasons, most of which I will not state here but suffice it to say there are some people in the MC who have caused people to feel unwanted - some of who have already left and some, like Devan, who is saying she is leaving. Come on people, get a life! This world is full of too much religious bigotry and hatred that we don't need it here on the boards and, to be quite honest, I don't visit the boards as often as I used to because of bull-merdt like this!

Some of you who I've come to know very well, know I'm a very tolerate person who doesn't believe in organized religions but I would never ridicule or bad mouth someone else for whatever beliefs they have, whether organized religion or Jediism, because I expect them to respect and honor what I do or do not believe in. If we all followed that mantra, this world, and this fan club, would be a much better place in which to live and share a common interest.

I am sure Eric has received many emails on this particular issue and is tired of having to babysit a bunch of adults and chastise them like children. In support of what he has said, if I were him, I would get very tired of smallmindedness very quickly and wouldn't be as diplomatic as our esteemed President.

This is a sure way to kill the MC...keep on doing this and there won't be a Wisconsin Fan Force represented here or at C3. Think about it.

 

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. For all of you who are claiming that Devon feels unwanted...how about a reminder of a few incidences that occured here.

DarthBobaLot who was chastised because he didn't know about swordplay.

The kid who didn't use punctuation.

Now those are true examples where people behaved badly toward new people. Before people start whining, lecturing and accusing take a good long look at your own behavior. I am sorry that Devon feels offended, unwanted, and uninvited and I'm sorry for all of those people who leave and who can't handle a few opposing view points. But we are intelligent individuals who will have opinions and will share them if we are asked.

Now, please point out exactly where Devon was personally attacked, chasised, or deliberately made to feel however it is she feels. Because I've read that thread over and over and I have not seen an instance of a personal attack. If she feels that way, we've all been very clear that it wasn't intended and apologized. However, twice today that someone said behavior was childish. So what makes you right and everyone else wrong..oh that would be your opinion wouldn't it? I never insulted Devon or was rude but Joan and Leslie were both rude today.

As for what this fanforce means, it's been divided since the very beginning and it isn't the fault of anyone of the people I call my friends and it isn't the fault of anyone who I haven't had the opportunity to get to know. There are groups of people who have different interests and we've clustered around those interests. We've posted about many group events most of which the "book club" have not attended. That was your choice, so stop blaming people for the "fall" of the fanforce or for feeling unwelcome or unwanted there has never been a time someone was unwelcome at any event, outing, or "get together". If YOU CHOOSE NOT to come, how in the hell is that anyone's fault but yours?

And stop tossing out the "acting like adults" argument. I have witnessed those who have tossed out that particular phrase behave in precisely the manner they're whining about now. Who are you to judge the behavior of any one? What gives you the right?

I'm tired of the condescension so just stop. If there is any misrepresentation and open display of poor qualities of a fanforce it's clearly displayed for anyone to come and read.


M

 

I don't like it being implied that I'm guilty of religious bigotry. I didn't attack Christianity, Buddhism or Judaism. I actually didn't attack any religion. I don't think anyone here implied that the tenants of Jediism were flawed. Some of us said that the Force didn't exist. Sorry if this is equivalent of bigotry in some people's views, but I think that everyone can accept that it was created for fiction. In my eyes, it's like saying magic exists. If people believe that all life is important and that there is an energy to it, that seems like a logical thing to me. To say you can lift things with your mind is another. I also have to add that in the Jediism thread, I must have said that I supported the ideals of the order about a dozen times. Hardly an attack.

Most of all I'm posting this because of two reasons:

A) When asked for my opinion, as a crazy notion, I sometimes give it. I don't give the reader's opinion, I give mine. It's how conversation works. Here's an example, I've disagreed with Dan on several topics surrounding the war and George Bush. At times, I'm of the exact opposite opinion of his, but I never lost respect for Dan. I understand his arguements for what he believes in, and I've gained respect for him because I know he holds his opinions with conviction and with an open mind for other sides. I'd rather discuss something with Dan that I disagree with him about than talk about common ground with some other people.

B) I never intend malice in my comments. You'll notice I never posted, "IF you believe in this, you're a moron." Why? Because I don't believe that. In fact, I encouraged people to do anything that makes them happy and feel good. Again, hardly an attack. The world of cyberspace is void of the one thing often necessary to keep a civil comment from sounding harsh, and that's inflection. There is no anger in my text, no harsh judgement.

I personally don't need people to come in and lecture me on how to be civil. There's no need for a rift in the group and I don't picture it destined for failure. We've been around over a year now. Our first big meeting at the museum was before the 2002 Concinnity. I haven't looked through old threads for the exact date, but I'm sure it was in April. It's gotten to the point where I consider the people I meet with as friends, not members of some fan club. Sure, I don't meet with all the people in the group because I don't go to book club meetings, or to costume discussions. Some people judged us a while ago because we had the nerve to get together and go to pubs and not do anything Star Wars related. We've taken a lot of those meetings to another area. I haven't met with people for an official Star Wars thing for a long time. If I recall, we were supposed to have three big meetings a year, the first of which I missed due to illness, and the second and third... have yet to be announced. I'm not in a position of leadership around here so it's hardly my place to organize such events. Maybe our leaders could post a meeting idea, rather than a lecture.

Dwayne

 

I don't believe anyone criticized you for going to a pub. You were asked not to discuss the glories of drinking on a forum which was open to minors. It was not simply discussing where you were meeting but rather descriptive details of what happened on some of these outings that got you into trouble. We don't need to know who hurled and such.
I have met people through this group who I have found more in common than Star Wars as I know you all have. However, we tend to be less cutting in our comments to people we see in the flesh on a regular basis than those we don't see often or have never seen. The example of the newbie and the swordplay was pretty nasty and would not have been as cutting had this kid shown up at some meeting of the MC. We might have set him straight but we would not have been as cutting. This is precisely my point. The anonymity of these boards allows us to speak in a way that we would not if speaking face to face. Maybe we should think how we would react if the person were standing right in front of us. I find it hard to believe that any of the members I have met would be comfortable talking that way to a stranger in a face to face conversation.

Some of you have a great talent for the use of words. Just because you say it in a witty way, doesn't mean that the point you are making doesn't cut as deep. If people feel that they are being made fun of, they tend to shy away.

 

It's very rare that I post something I wouldn't say to someone's face. The difference is the interpretation, if you were standing right in front of me you'd hear inflection, tone, and get a better understanding of the content.

And I agree that people shouldn't be so harsh and that includes everyone. I'm almost offended that quite possibly I or some of my friends were accused of being childish. But you know what? So what...so what? They're still my friends and those of you who don't know me, still aren't. What have we solved with the name calling? Nothing, but probably a little less interest in getting to know someone you don't really know. Good call, nice move,way to promote the Fan Force. Good way to represent.

I'm done with this conversation. So go on name calling and being ridiculous. I have no more time for it.

Joan you were totally cool at Film Con. Leslie I had a good time chatting in line at C2. We almost always have a good time getting together when either group bothers. The only time we all don't have a good time is when we're conversing on the boards. Go figure.

So, whatever. Do whatever I'm totally out of this conversation. I've got no time or inclination for this petty crap. Knock yourselves out.


M

 

All of what is going on here is exactly the point I was making and what Eric was probably alluding to.... Eric was being diplomatic because he is president but the first punch has been dealt so I feel the need to counter-punch....

Granted I was harsh with the kid regarding swords but I did soften the criticism by still offering to teach him the proper methods if he was truly interested...he never contacted me so it was obvious he wasn't. However, pointing out my one lack of commonsense doesn't negate the continous lack of it on these boards by a small minority of members.

This group is fracturing like fragile glass and, personally, I really don't care because those who I am friends with will remain friends whether we meet under the auspices of the MC or not.

 

Who exactly would be responsible for that because really that's what this is really all about? Now we're getting to the real point of this entire situation because I know it wasn't about the excuses everyone has been throwing around.

This group is fracturing as a GROUP because it has no leadership as a group. Sorry Eric, Sorry Tracy. We have several groups that get together and hang out. There's the group we hang out with and the group you hang out with and a small group that goes between the two. Up until this point, I have never had a problem with the situation.

So now we aren't talking about the crappy little posts that have been tossed around all night it's about the the point of what you're really trying to say. What really is your problem? Is it because some of us are opinionated? Is it because you don't happen to like what we say? Because I'm assuming I'm part of that small minority of which you speak.

We are not a group. We are a group of groups. If that's a problem, it's a silly problem.

And why does it take this for people who have a problem to start talking about it? I know most of the group I hang with have no idea what you're talking about so really, we're not the ones with the problem. But if you have a problem say so instead of waiting and letting things get to this point. Geez.

M

 

Well I just can't sit out this slap-fest any longer.

We seem to have two camps represented here. If I may label them so I can better understand things (and to those of you who belong to the respective camps, please feel free to enlighten me regarding your actual positions if I misrepresent them here).

First we have the "Ultra-Diplomatic" camp and the "Ultra-Opinion Sharing" camp. I may ruffle some feathers with the semantics there, but so be it.

While looking at these two camps as objectively as I possibly can, I feel I can say that there's no way they're going to get along. Fundamentally they're antagonistic. By definition they're polar opposites. It's like Creationism vs. Darwinism. They don't jive. What am I getting at here?

We aren't going to agree when it comes to issues such as this. Some believe it is best to accept what is brought out of discussion with the utmost diplomacy, giving equal weight to everyone else's opinions and views. Some believe it is best to debate lively and respectively, learning all they can from the differing viewpoint.

Neither camp is better than the other. If I may throw my personal opinions in here for a moment, if we go the complete Diplomatic route, no one's feelings get hurt and everyone always feels welcome. That's not a good thing. Debate is necessary for growth. I see it like the people who don't want to keep score at little league baseball games. That way everyone's a winner. Well you know what? That's not life. People lose in life. And it sucks! We keep score so we have incentive to work harder. Conflict is necessary. But so is conflict resolution.

Taking the complete Opinion-Sharing route isn't a good idea, either. There are people out there who need to be treated with Kid Gloves. And not everyone is interested in hearing how you feel about a particular subject. Sometimes a safe haven is needed for security reasons. When one's self-esteem is bruised, more bashing is the last thing someone needs. Understanding tends to be the quickest and most humaine band-aid for such an injury. But the realism this camp provides is also necessary.

Personally I see myself with one foot planted firmly in each camp. There are things which I feel very strongly about, but I prefer to state my opinions in a diplomatic, non-confrontational way. I also ask a LOT of questions when I don't agree or understand another's view. But you know what? That's me. That's what I've found works best for Catie. Do I think everyone should be this way? No way! That would make things very boring.

I like Leslie and Joan they way they are. I like Marcy and Dwayne the way they are. Should any of them change? I don't know. I think we would all benefit from a little more understanding from the opposing camps. Some become a little firmer, others become a little more wishy-washy.

We all like Star Wars. That's why we're here. We're not all white. We're not all Christian. We're not all Democrats. We are going to disagree. That's life. But we all need to respect eachother, and recognize that we are respected.

Catie

 

This group is fracturing as a GROUP because it has no leadership as a group. Sorry Eric, Sorry Tracy. We have several groups that get together and hang out. There's the group we hang out with and the group you hang out with and a small group that goes between the two. Up until this point, I have never had a problem with the situation.

First of all did you run filmcon. Did you orginize the guests NO. DId you pm eric ounce a week and ask how things were going with the con. No SO i sure as hell dont see you in any postion to crticize Eric as a leader. I see you as more of a person. Who wants to do his own thing and not respect anybody. You Just seem like your a person who does not have a lot of control so he bulllies and Mocks people by Showing off his intelctual brain size. it also seems you want the group to confrom to your sechdule and no one elses. Dude thats not a leader that is a Dictator
It seems you were really rude to devan and you owe her and your other millwokkies and aplogie

Ben

 

...

Don't argue a situation you don't understand, Ben. No one criticized Film Con, no one is bullying anyone, and no one is insisting others conform to a personal schedule of their own.

I would recommend in the future you refrain from making comments in threads like this.

HBP

Jeff

 

In all honesty I don't think the Jediism conversation ever got out of hand. The discussion was closed as per request. Maybe people were taking things too seriously. The only time I really got too far into the debate was in response to Red's post and I said the Force didn't exist. What sounded like common sense to me might have sounded like an attack to someone taking part in Jediism. My words were always purposefully countered with a supportive arguement saying that while I disagreed with some some aspects, I agreed with others. But I still don't think the conversation ever got out of hand. Would any one of us here attack something like Christianity or make fun of personal tragedy? No, I don't think we would. Maybe some of us underestimated how important this was to Devon and for that I apologize for any comment I posted that hurt her.

I have to wonder if this thread would even exist if Devon had not announced that she was leaving, an action I still think unnecessary. Based on that conversation, would Eric have come here and lectured us all on our conduct? I somehow doubt it. Are people reacting to the conversation, or to the unintended, and surprising effect? I've met Devon and had a good time talking to her. In the same manner, I've met Joan and Leslie and had numerous conversations with them. I think I can hear them talking when I read their posts. I would hope the same is true when they read mine. Other than one instance where I insisted we burn one of the states of the union to the ground, I think I've been reasonable in person and I would hope everyone who has met me would read my posts with an even, non threatening tone.

Yes, there have been some problems within the group, but largely caused by things away from the board and from my understanding, largely taken care of. I enjoy talking to the person I've argued with the most and things are more entertaining when he's around. There is no need for a rift. We are not a piece of fragile glass. We are only as fragile as our own egos. My opinions won't shatter because others disagree. This group should not be one thing. It should be many things. I would like to make a costume, but I probably never will, so I don't go to those meetings. I don't drink, but I still go out when the group goes to pubs.

I do share my opinion when asked, and perhaps it goes too far from time to time, but diplomacy does play a role in what I say. I kept one thing about Jediism to myself because I realized it had nothing to do with the merits of the religion, but had everything to do with my personal feelings on something superficial.

But for those that have met the core members of this group, when reading the posts try to do so by thinking of how the person typing might sound in person. Or think of the person's general nature. If in person I come across as harsh, opinionated or bigotted, well, then read my posts that way. Hopefully, I'm none of those things. If my posts come across as sarcastic in some contexts or soft spoken and non-offensive, then that's what I'd like them to reflect. I try to tell people how I honestly feel, tempering my thoughts based on how well I know the person. Sometimes, like everyone, I will feel strongly about something. It happens. As adults, we should know that. And on discussion boards, occasionally, discussions will break out. People will not always agree, and hopefully it will stay that way. But hopefully people will also learn to stick to their beliefs and not read everything as an attack. Even if you don't like one or two people here, it's a large group and that still leaves a good number. Why quit or get mad from a small percentage?

Also, lectures rarely help. If your coworker does something wrong and your boss holds a meeting and lectures the group, have you ever felt better because of it? I don't know about you, but I usually feel that my boss reprimanded me unfairly for someone else's mistake, and I feel angry at my coworker for causing the mess. And the coworker usually feels humiliated and that it should have been handled in private.

 

first of all the point i was trying to make was how can you say someone is a bad leader . When someone themselves has never lead anything

Ben

 

How can you say someone has never lead anything if you don't know that person?

HBP

Jeff

 

Ben,

Listen to Jeff. This is territory where you have no background information.


M

 

Ben - By that logic no one but former presidents would be allowed to vote in presidential elections.

Please follow Jeffs advice - you do not all the people involved nor do you know all the issues. This hornets nest has been stirred up enough.

 

Catie as always is the consumate diplomat. Thanks for the soundcheck. It's much appreciated. My zeal for argument/discussion gets the best of me sometimes. I forget that some folks take it way more personally than I intend.

It's clear there's problems here. It's clear we're not going to get them worked out in this particular forum and in this particular fashion and any further discussion is going to cause even a bigger rift than there already is...

M

 

sdrry feel free to kick my ass

Ben

 

Okay, enough everyone. This is going nowhere and I'm stopping it now. Next person to post anything about this gets their name sent in a ban request by me (okay, not really, but I'm trying to sound tough here - cut me a *LITTLE* slack at least).

What we need here is one of them fancy face-to-face meeting type things. Kinda like the one we had over at Tracey's place last summer. We can all get together, have a big meeting to discuss concerns and problems with the MC. Everyone is welcome, and maybe we can even do something fun after the meeting (or before). I say the sooner this happens, the better. So, what I want everyone to do - without running off at the mouth about any of the issues here - is just to try to work out a time for a meeting. Maybe even the trip to see X-Men 2 or Matrix Reloaded might be a good time to have this meeting. Let me know what y'all think and hopefully we can work something out here, because just pretending a problem doesn't exist isn't gonna work anymore.

HBP

Jeff

 

I am not going to say anymore about the Devon situation right now. About Eric, though, the election of officers was an attempt to conform to the structure of the fanforce set up by the Force.net. We had many discussions about how we never felt that we conformed to the typical group. In regard to the boards, the city rep was the one that was necessary. We didn't need a treasure except for the shirt things so that was why Michele agreed because she was already doing it. The idea for the big meetings was to conform to the rules of the fanforce. We really did already fulfill that with all of our small groups. They are all open to everyone. We had a larger get together at Filmcon although that was not official. I still want to attempt to have larger get togethers like the one at Tracey's. It was fun but if we can't organize it, the movie runs, convention get togethers and the pub meetings suffice for the social gatherings. The book, gaming, costuming and newsletter groups suffice on the business end.
I enjoy getting together with you all. My opinion of you is not diminished by this discussion. It is merely expressing a different viewpoint in the hopes of avoiding future friction. I don't like seeing people like Devon quit for reasons that can be dealt with before. I have driven more than an hour to these meetings. I wouldn't do that if I disliked the people at them. You all together form a stimulating and interesting group. I have never had a time that I couldn't find someone to talk to and it is seldom the same person. It just depends on the purpose of the gathering. I don't want the group to break up over this. I would appreciate if someone would tell me how to get on the other boards. I have been asking for weeks without a response.

 

I like everyone in the Council and I'm really sad to see all this arguing/fighting/whatever. That's my two cents.

 

Well...I guess I opened a can of "trouble" and have forgotten wear I put the damn lid!

I have spent most of my life listening to people fight over one thing or another. The fact is after a certain age you grow tired of it. Not that we really fight. I don't believe that. But this thread has gone to far and has bean taken way beyond what I intended.

The reason I wrote this was 2 fold. I never want anybody to leave because of things said here, on these boards. There are many other clubs that have far worse problems than us. The only difference is they never air their laundry...like we tend to.

I have been in fandom since the begining, so I guess for once I am the old guy. I have seen MANY, MANY friendships break up over very trivial things. And it always has made me feel funny. When you think about what started the whole mess in the first place.

In the late 70's there where 2 groups. The church of Ford, and the Luke people.( I could not make this stuff up)- the fact is they both started to fight so much it began happening at conventions and other venues. People turned on one another, and friends became bitter enemies. All because...ready...one group thought the other ones favorite was better!

Thank God we are not that bad! We might have a fight over what beer is better- a dark ale, or a pilsner, but that would be about it.

This thread was never made to hurt feelings, alienate fans or group memebers or to tell people you are wrong, so behave. It was written so everyone understood that I want everyone to get along and that we ALL SHOULD BE CAREFUL of what is said, because their are people with different sensitivities.

Did I feel the Jedism thread was mean and nasty, NO! Did I wish that it was stopped off the bat so this kind of stuff did not happen-YES! Do I think this has been blown out of proportion to the sense that no there might be some hurt feelings...I don't know, maybe!

This group is a great group. I think I get along with everyone very well. I never have had a bad discussion with folks or nasty flair ups. The truth is I love a good debate. But in the proper setting.

Being the president is never an easy thing. I am the first and last to hear about things. Be it from you the members or the board people themselves. If there is a problem I have to stick my neck out, find out what it is, and then try my damndest to fix it. Without stepping on to many toes.

Does anyone want to venture a guess how many emails I had on this subject even before I wrote this thread? Or better yet how many PM's I have received over the last year from people, because someone said this, or the group did this, or...my favorite- "did you see what this person wrote".

I never tried to be the main event in this group. Dwayne was right in his posting. I created my convention FilmCon for one reason, for everyone to have fun and meet new friends. It was an official meeting though, one of three. But that is niether here nor there.

I am a fan. A simple Star Wars fan. I love nothing more than meeting with friends and talking about it. I have always enjoyed myself when I am with any group I meet with. The fun never stops. I really enjoyed the bar that night. Dang, that was fun. And I want to keep doing it with you people.

But I was elected to head the group up. It has splintered into many little groups. That's the way it should work. I am not the kind of person who feels they have to watch the whole group all the time. You are mostly adults over the age of 18. It's when a problem accures that I usually have to put on my robes, and sit and make a comment from the podium. Like I did yesterday.

There have been many times I have had to cover for us. These boards as many have figured out are not always friendly to are group as a whole.
Sometimes it's our fault, other times it is not. This again is not a blaming issue. I just want to be able to tell everyone what goes one.

It is my job to represent this board and club at meetings at other conventions, and as a whole to the public. I try to get more people to join and

 

Wow Eric. 40? I had no idea.