*OFFICIAL THREAD* Sifo-Dyas Discussion

ChewieHadBotox posted on 4/13/05 8:21pm

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Hey guys, I just saw an awesome movie called Attack of the Clones that explained to me that Sifo-Dyas was a dead jedi whose name was used to make the clone order by Darth Sidious and Darth Tyranus, former Jedi Dooku. Wow. Great stuff.
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Ha! Great post! [face_applause][face_applause][face_applause][face_applause]

 

Hey guys, I just saw an awesome movie called Attack of the Clones that explained to me that Sifo-Dyas was a dead jedi whose name was used to make the clone order by Darth Sidious and Darth Tyranus, former Jedi Dooku. Wow. Great stuff.

Cool. I saw that movie three years ago.

 

In reply to the now-locked thread about Visionaries...

...no, it is not entirely Infinities:

Leland Chee, of Lucas Licencing, and keeper of LFL's "holocron" database (a continuity database used to help EU authors and artists):

Does LFL have official listings for when the stories in "Visionaries" are set? Or even, which ones "happened" and which ones are infinities?
The Darth Maul story is non-continuity, the Wat Tambor story is possible continuity as outlandish as it is, the Sidious story is kinda continuity ("from a certain point of view"), the "The Fourth Precept" is anybody's guess, and the "Celestia Galactica Photografica" exists as works of art within continuity. The rest should fit and for the most part you'll know when these are set by reading them.

 

Hey guys, I just saw an awesome movie called Attack of the Clones that explained to me that Sifo-Dyas was a dead jedi whose name was used to make the clone order by Darth Sidious and Darth Tyranus, former Jedi Dooku. Wow. Great stuff.


Yeah, but I saw a great movie called Star Wars that explained to me that Luke's father was MURDERED! As far as I know, no arrest was ever made!

I ask you - WHERE IS THE JUSTICE?

*shakes fists in the air*

 

ok...um, so.
everyone who wants to bash on George, go make a better movie that re-defines an art (cinema) and a genre (scifi/fantasy), and goes on to become the single most enduring movie in the history of film, and be sure to create world wide hype simply by announcing you're going to continue the saga after a twenty year lull.

everyone who feels they need to defend George and say that he is the best writer/director ever to live, go watch the ewok movies (caravan of courage and battle for endor), and watch return to oz, and watch the special features on TPM where he decides to go with Jake Loyd as anakin because the other (better) kid they had would have been better, but taken too long. oh, and watch when they're doing sound dailouge replacement for AOTC and Lucas says after one take 'that's fine, we're done' and his sound recorder turns to the camera and sighs "he used to care..."

seriously you guys....

 

Yeah, but I saw a great movie called Star Wars that explained to me that Luke's father was MURDERED! As far as I know, no arrest was ever made!

What are you saying then? That it's all BS about Sifo-Dyas dying and the novel is wrong and so is the movie?

 

What are you saying then? That it's all BS about Sifo-Dyas dying and the novel is wrong and so is the movie?

Relax, D Lowe.

No. As I recall, I was responding to ChewieHadBotox's implication that if a character says it on screen it must be true:

Hey guys, I just saw an awesome movie called Attack of the Clones that explained to me that Sifo-Dyas was a dead jedi whose name was used to make the clone order by Darth Sidious and Darth Tyranus, former Jedi Dooku. Wow. Great stuff.


In the first Star Wars, not only was it 'explained' that Luke's father was "murdered", at one point it was even 'explained' that Obi Wan died about the same time. It's only as the story progresses that we discover what's true and what isn't.

All I got from the dialogue in AOTC was that Obi Wan wasn't sure of his facts. That's why he was asking Yoda and Mace for confirmation of what he believed.

At this stage, it's all water under the bridge, isn't it?

It was a minor point in the form of a silly response to ChewieHadBotox's sarcasm. Nothing to get worked up about.

 

Has Lucas ever addressed the Sifo-Dyas thing, in any interviews, etc?

It seems to me that Sidious almost HAD to be involved in the creation of the Clone army. As I am reading things, the whole Separatist movment is subtly encouraged by Sidious (through Dooku) to FORCE the Republic into "needing" an army... an army which just so happens, "coincidentally" to be now ready (with a ten year leadtime!). Otherwise, it seems a monstrously absurd stroke of "luck".

But, again..has GL himself ever addressed this?

Shadow

 

Only what he said in the DVD for AOTC. That the next film would reveal what was behind all of this. Who ordered the clones and who erased Kamino. Pablo then said that it was a red herring that worked too well.

The revelation in ROTS is that Sidious was behind it, when he tells the Clonetroopers to execute order 66. That is the big revelation, because there would be no way for Sidious to know this, if he didn't do it himself, if Sifo-Dyas placed the order.

Labyrinth Of Evil was allowed to set up ROTS, including revealing how Sifo-Dyas was used and killed. As well as who erased Kamino.

 

All I got from the dialogue in AOTC was that Obi Wan wasn't sure of his facts. That's why he was asking Yoda and Mace for confirmation of what he believed.

All Obi-Wan wasn't sure about was "WHEN" Sifo-Dyas died. It wasn't a matter of if, but when.

In the AOTC TEXT DVD Commentary, it specifically states that Sifo-Dyas was a Jedi Master and he died. It's on the DVD, and you need to see it, listen to it in your DVD-ROM on your PC and put it on and read it.

 

All Obi-Wan wasn't sure about was "WHEN" Sifo-Dyas died. It wasn't a matter of if, but when.

But if Obi Wan wasn't sure of his facts about the 'WHEN'...

...why should the audience be 100% certain he was correct about the 'IF'?


In the AOTC TEXT DVD Commentary...

(which wasn't available to the theater audience)

...it specifically states that Sifo-Dyas was a Jedi Master and he died. It's on the DVD, and you need to see it, listen to it in your DVD-ROM on your PC and put it on and read it.

I'm not sure what it is you want to argue about. The DVD also specifically states that after watching AOTC, there is still some mystery regarding the business of who ordered the clone army, waiting to be revealed in Ep.III.

George Lucas (AOTC DVD commentary): "Someone in the Jedi order has been hiding this whole system from the Jedi archives. It does come out eventually in the next movie, exactly what's behind all this, but I wanted to have it there in this movie, but not so strongly that you asked a lot of questions about who is the one that erased the tapes and who started the army and how all that works 'cause it's something unfortunately that doesn't get revealed until the third film."

That implies a mystery. In hindsight, it's easy to say there's nothing more to Sifo-Dyas...

...because Lucas has decided there isn't.

Again, at this point, I'm not sure what it is you want to argue about - that three years later, a potentially significant name turned out to not be significant?

In that case, I guess you win.

 

I have it! It was the Jedi Master Mac Guffin!

As much as I had hoped that all the answers would come in this last film, unless it's something that isn't anywhere in the published stuff so far, I think that Sifo Dyas isn't going to come up. It's not like there aren't any other plot holes left open. Like, oh I don't know, Obi Wan not remembering R2 at all?

It'll have nice, cool action scenes but I don't expect ROTS to fill in every crack. That's what the books are for.

 

It is adressed in ROTS, when Sidious reveals Order 66.

 

Sifo was told to order the clones by Palpatinethen stabbed in the back by Dooku. That's what it says in the VD anyway.

In the crappy theatrical cut we'll probably just see palps tell the clones to kill all the jedi, something that's not much of a mystery since he can tell the clones to do whatever he wants now that they belong to his empire. So I don't fully understand the argument that since he can give them order 66 that he in fact made sifo dyas buy his army and the mystery of "who erased the archive file" etc. is all nicely solved and wrapped in a big red bow. (for us film watchers, ya dig)

What's the point of order 66? If palps says jump, the clones will ask how much they should charge into their jump boosters. I must be missing something. Help me someone-kenobi, ur my only hope.

 

Not really. All that addresses is that Palpatine was in on the creation of the clones. We knew that already, or at least could reasonably surmise it from the events of the film. Sifo Dyas was supposedly a real Jedi, so how does he enter into the events of what happened? I don't think it's fair to mention the books as the general public and even a lot of the fans never read the books. You can only really go on the information that is presented in the films themselves. We'll see, but I have a feeling that the character won't be mentioned again.

 

It is adressed in ROTS, when Sidious reveals Order 66.

Which should tell us that the Emperor is behind the whole thing, yet it is difficult for people to understand.

 

Dude, if people can't understand from watching Episode II that Sidious had a hand in the whole Clone thing, then they need to go watch KANGAROO JACK or some other film of its ilk. That's like people not realizing that Palpatine =Sidious even though we know that Palpatine ends up as the Emporer. Usually the most obvious answer is the correct one.

 

Actually, I think EVERYONE realizes that Sidious is behind it.

Any disagreement is in the details.

 

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George Lucas (AOTC DVD commentary): "Someone in the Jedi order has been hiding this whole system from the Jedi archives. It does come out eventually in the next movie, exactly what's behind all this, but I wanted to have it there in this movie, but not so strongly that you asked a lot of questions about who is the one that erased the tapes and who started the army and how all that works 'cause it's something unfortunately that doesn't get revealed until the third film."[hr][/blockquote]

People use this quote from Lucas to somehow try and point out some inconsistency, error, or prediction that Sifo-Dyas will still play some role in ROTS, but I fail to see the connection or the problem with his statement. It's 100% accurate and does not indicate a problem or change of plans between AOTC and ROTS.

The mystery is carried over into ROTS inasmuch as it is finally publically revealed that the Sith controled the creation of the clone army and Dooku erased the files. Order 66 will leave no doubt. Although walking out of AOTC it was pretty obvious anyway. There really is no mystery. I think George thought he was being trickier than he was, but then on second thought, he sure threw a bunch of diehard fans off the right track.

 

People use this quote from Lucas to somehow try and point out some inconsistency, error, or prediction that Sifo-Dyas will still play some role in ROTS, but I fail to see the connection or the problem with his statement. It's 100% accurate and does not indicate a problem or change of plans between AOTC and ROTS.


I think you're missing the context in which I posted that quote.

1) ChewieHadBotox implied that because a character said something on screen, it must be true.

2) I pointed out examples of SW characters saying things that turned out not to be true.

3) D Lowe referred to DVD commentary to make the argument that Sifo-Dyas was a real Jedi who really died...

4) ...so I referred to the DVD commentary, where in his own words, Lucas says that there is still a mystery surrounding who ordered the clones and "how that all works" and that it "doesn't get revealed until the third film."

My argument isn't that Sifo-Dyas is important.

My argument is that three years before the ROTS script leaked out...

...Lucas gave people good reason to speculate about "how all that works."

The mystery is carried over into ROTS inasmuch as it is finally publically revealed that the Sith controled the creation of the clone army and Dooku erased the files. Order 66 will leave no doubt. Although walking out of AOTC it was pretty obvious anyway. There really is no mystery. I think George thought he was being trickier than he was, but then on second thought, he sure threw a bunch of diehard fans off the right track.

As you say, there really is no mystery, but how can you blame people for thinking there was more to it...

...when Lucas said there was more to it?

Do you really think Lucas thought he was being tricky when he had Sidious and Dooku gloating together at the end of AOTC?

 

If this is, in fact, patterned after a good old-time film noir whodunnit (see AOC commentary), E2 is a good ol' "the butler did it."

There is nothing remotely "catchy" about "the most obviously-evil suspect is the culprit." Nothing that I wouldn't throw in the garbage on my first day of writing.

Strike that - it would not even make it to a sheet of paper.


"Geeeeeeee, what tipped you? The black robe, the threats of physical violence, the fact that he was shown doing all those evil things in the opening stanza? Awwwwww... pretty sharp detective skills, pardner."


Dooku is a bad guy, wow, I'm so surprised, after his behavior in the arena.


"How it all works" is the E3 clincher. Yes, these guys did it, but why they did it...


...who, or what, compelled them to do it...

Sifo was a red-herring? Well, shucks, we don't even hear the name "Plageuis" till halfway through the last installment...

 

Once again, I will repeat what I've said. Lucas had originally made it Sidious as the culprit in AOTC. Then he changed his mind as he wanted to be more of a mystery, but not this huge one. He implies a conncetion as Dooku reveals that he's Tyranus. Later, Obi-wan hears straight from Grievous that Dooku was Tyranus. Later, we find out that Sidious created the Clone Army and had Sifo-Dyas killed, before then, so that he couldn't defend his actions.

Also, an actual Jedi had to be used, in order for the Clone Army to be actually used by the Order. A lot of people, myself included, thought that Sifo-Dyas himself would be addressed, but he wasn't. LOE and the VD clarifies it for those who were confused.

 

Darth_Howell_III posted on 4/27/05 4:41pm

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If this is, in fact, patterned after a good old-time film noir whodunnit (see AOC commentary), E2 is a good ol' "the butler did it."

There is nothing remotely "catchy" about "the most obviously-evil suspect is the culprit." Nothing that I wouldn't throw in the garbage on my first day of writing.

Strike that - it would not even make it to a sheet of paper.


[i]"Geeeeeeee, what tipped you? The black robe, the threats of physical violence, the fact that he was shown doing all those evil things in the opening stanza? Awwwwww... pretty sharp detective skills, pardner."[/i]


Dooku is a bad guy, wow, I'm so surprised, after his behavior in the arena.


"How it all works" is the E3 clincher. Yes, these guys did it, but [i]why [/i]they did it...


...who, or what, [i]compelled [/i]them to do it...

Sifo was a red-herring? Well, shucks, we don't even hear the name "Plageuis" till halfway through the last installment...


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First off, Dooku wasn't wearing black robes and acting like a bad guy when we first meet him. In fact he tells Obi Wan about Sidious controlling the Republic and offers to help destroy the Sith.

We don't find out Dooku is Darth Tyrannus until the end of the film.

Finally, again you are trying to make fun of Lucas writing skills because he didn't do things [i]your way[/i]. Again I have to ask [b]what the Hell have you done that is so great that you should be giving any writer advice?[/b]

 

"Hey guys, I just saw an awesome movie called Attack of the Clones that explained to me that Sifo-Dyas was a dead jedi whose name was used to make the clone order by Darth Sidious and Darth Tyranus, former Jedi Dooku. Wow. Great stuff."

--Wow. Has it been released nationally yet?

"Actually, I think EVERYONE realizes that Sidious is behind it.

Any disagreement is in the details."

--Exactly. It looks like it's the details that will still be unanswered by the films. Some people need the details in the films, others don't care. Personally I need them in the films, but I guess there are others who don't, and I guess that's that.

I said it before, and I'll say it again: if Obi-Wan was hiding something from the Kaminoans, then it looks like the Jedi suspect that Sifo-Dyas did *not* place the order, and we're left to suspect Dooku. Which is not quite an explanation, but maybe good enough. But if Obi-Wan was really clueless as to exactly when Sifo-Dyas died, then we have confusion, that is not clarified *in the films*. To some people, this matters. To others, it doesn't. Neither side can understand how the other one puts up with it, and that's just the way it is.

"Later, Obi-wan hears straight from Grievous that Dooku was Tyranus."

--And, which film will that be in?

"Later, we find out that Sidious created the Clone Army and had Sifo-Dyas killed, before then, so that he couldn't defend his actions."

--So, which film was that again? And wait--now what was the story from the EU again?

"LOE and the VD clarifies it for those who were confused."

--Which seem to contradict your own claims! (that Sifo-Dyas was killed before the order was placed--so where did you learn this?) Or wait: what does the Scrapbook say? Did Sifo-Dyas order them himself, or did Palpatine tell him to? Hm...

Not exactly clarification.

Now, I don't think Lucas was misleading--he was very careful to talk generally, and we will see just what he promised--we'll see who has been "behind all that" in RotS. What we'll never see is: who a) specifically erased Kamino from the archives (Dooku, but we'll never learn that from one of the films b) who specifically placed the order for the clones (still unclear--EU says Sifo-Dyas, but films imply it was Dooku?) c) whether Sifo-Dyas was operating under the direction of Palpatine or not (answer depends on which source you trust, and again, the films simply do not say) and finally d) when did Sifo-Dyas die, and how? (Films do not answer this, and suggest a different answer from the EU material).

And, just to clarify again, I'm not bashing Lucas--it's his story, and he can tell it however he wants. Clearly he felt there were more important things to explain than exactly who did what when regarding the order for the clone army. That's his right. I have no problem with that. I've got my own opinions about it, but they're nothing more than my opinions.

Again, if all you care about is "Well, whatever really happened, Palpatine was pulling the strings", then fine, all your questions are answered in the films. If not, then you have to pick which EU story to believe, or make up your own theory. I guess that's all there is to say about it.

 

I read that palpatine raised and trained Darth Maul from an early age. I read this on jedipurge.com. It says that Darth Maul's original name was Khameir Sarin. Hey did you know the emperor's real name is Dantius Palpatine? What a trip. Thanks for your time. Take care.