Are the NJO books *that* bad?

My questions were rhetorical:

"Main Entry: rhe·tor·i·cal
Pronunciation: ri-'tor-i-k&l, -'tär-
Variant(s): also rhe·tor·ic /ri-'tor-ik, -'tär-/
Function: adjective
Date: 15th century
1 a : of, relating to, or concerned with rhetoric b : employed for rhetorical effect; especially : asked merely for effect with no answer expected <a rhetorical question>"

meaning, they were not meant to be answered, but my point still stands, you do not have to read x-wing books, comics, and games to enjoy the other main line series. But enjoyment still can be taken from any source including marvel comics. Because they do deepen the background for time zones not covered in any other source.

 

No, you DO have to read the X-Wing books - and the X-Wing comics - if you want to get the backstory on Corran Horn and his relationship with Mirax. Corran stars in a "mainstream" Bantam novel, "I, Jedi" (for which you also need to read JAT if you want the complete story). To more fully understand Corran's love for Mirax and the catalyst for the action in "I, Jedi," the X-Wing books and comics are very helpful. Can you read "I, Jedi" without reading the others? Of course. Is your understanding of the characters and their situations enhanced by reading the others? Yes, very much so.

There is no parallel to the Marvel comics and the Bantam books, as no storylines and/or characters are shared.

Even rhetorical questions must be based on logic and fact before they can make a point...

And this discussion has gotten vastly off-topic. The original topic is "Are the NJO books *that* bad?"

A discussion of Marvel vs. the Bantam books is therefore not appropriate for this thread on any account, as neither Marvel nor Bantam has anything to do with the NJO.

I call for the admins to lock this topic.

 

I' jedi, isn't main stream it's a side story to JAT, not required to read, even though it starts up elements to HOT, but you can read HOT and not have to read I' jedi. So in which case corran's background is not required reading. It won't help you or be important to the main movie characters. It's something you choose to read because you enjoy it, and want to know about some little known things. Same as with marvel.

So yes the my questions remain the same, and I have made my point. My questions remain logical, because it's a similer thing to marvel and the movie time periods. The are not required to understand or enjoy the movies, but they deepen the time zones around the movies. They are in a timezone that LFL. won't authorize other authors to touch except in a few extrem cases, such as BHW, SOTE, Tales of books, other than that LFL considers marvel books and strips to tell the story of that time zone, and nothing else will be released to cover up that time frame. At least not unless the prequel films conflicts with so much of all the EU to destroy it, and start over. Which will destroy much of zhan's, kja, mas, tyers, allstons, etc work already. But that is a worst case scenario I doubt will happen.

 

Aleja...

It's pretty strange that you'd call for this topic to be locked when you were one of the first to bring it off topic with an incorrect statement...
"The readers have been conditioned to think of the books as one big continuity."

The resulting discussion has concentrated on proving that statement as false. I see now all along there wasn't any point in the side discussion, since you (and Bror, etc.) been wrong all this time. However, that does not make the discussion which was temporarily sidetracked any less valid. We're well aware of your opinion regarding older continuity, but some people had valid concerns regarding the one big NJO continuity as compared to the one big continuity of the past.

 

Aleja - please stop asking for these topics to be closed. If you don't want to participate any further, then don't return to the topic.

A topic will be closed by me under the following criteria:

A) It does not belong in the Lit forum
B) It is extremely highly repetitve
C) It is offensive / against the JC rules

This topic does not fall under any of the above criteria - this topic will follow along its natural course.

 

Val, I know the meaning of the word.
I thought your questions DID need answers

My point is that the X-wings have more of an impact on the rest of the Saga than the Marvel comics do. I think that is the point several ppl are trying to make. Marvel IS official, and IS part of the timeline. No one is disputing that.
I just don't think that the Marvel stories are important enough to the over all saga to bother with, I haven't seen them have any impact on the rest of the EU.


I wrote the above off line before I saw your latest post, Val.
I am a bit perplexed by this statement
"' jedi, isn't main stream it's a side story to JAT, not required to read,"

I, Jedi is very much a mainline story.
Even if YOU don't think the story is that important (heck there are a number of mainline stories that CAN be skipped...CS and NR come to mind) most EU fans consider it a mainline story.
So did Bantam and LFL.
I, Jedi was published as a hard cover, not something a publisher does with a side story.
The X-wings, JJK, YJK the Crispin Solo trilogy and the various tales books were not published in hard cover (except in special eds for the SciFi book club) They all came out in trade paperback, something a publisher does with a side story that they figure has a small fan base and would be hard to sell at more than $20.
When a publisher expects fans to pay big bucks, you can be assured that it is a "mainline" story.

I Jedi is as mainline as CS, NR, and the Callista books.

Just because it take place during the same time span as a previously published novel doesn't mean it's a side story.

 

"I, Jedi is very much a mainline story.
Even if YOU don't think the story is that important"

I think it's very important just like how marvel covers a timezone you will not find anywhere else. That is why marvel is important. I just don't think of I'jedi as main line give me a chance to discuss my reasons.


"(heck there are a number of mainline stories that CAN be skipped...CS and NR come to mind) most EU fans consider it a mainline story."

Well yes while not important they are still about Main characters the movie mains so they are main line.

"So did Bantam and LFL.
I, Jedi was published as a hard cover, not something a publisher does with a side story."

Hell if we weant with your theory Dark forces novels would be main line.

Dark Forces trilogy, is not a main line, just like I' jedi. They cover characters that are not part of the movies and give us a deeper understanding of a certain point of timeline. They include main movie characters, but main movie characters are put in secondary roles. Just like X-wing.

"The X-wings, JJK, YJK the Crispin Solo trilogy and the various tales books were not published in hard cover (except in special eds for the SciFi book club) They all came out in trade paperback, something a publisher does with a side story that they figure has a small fan base and would be hard to sell at more than $20."

Actually they come in Mass market paper back something a tpb is not. Trade Paperback is a higher paper stock and costs $12-$15, something most comics come in.

"When a publisher expects fans to pay big bucks, you can be assured that it is a "mainline" story."

Nope we can be assured that they are just trying to make a profit. That is what TPB are trying to do also, and other hard back sideline novels.

"I Jedi is as mainline as CS, NR, and the Callista books."

Nope the main reason it was made hardback was because it was the first and so far only book to be done in First Person perspective. It was an awsome idea, made a wonderful book but's still basicaly a gimmick to sell more books.

The book really was going on would people buy it because of the name, the franchise, and because they may have liked corren from a non required reading series.

"Just because it take place during the same time span as a previously published novel doesn't mean it's a side story."

Then scenes that weren't regurgitations of JAT were pretty good, but the sections that repeated JAT were a bit slow. Those scenes were very much a side story. All a "side story" means is that it takes place at the same time as another main series. Which it does. Now the last part of the book just like just like dark forces trilogy is only about a non main character. Luke and others makes appearances but it's of secondary nature. Overall not a bad thing but the whole book felt like another x-wing series book.

Now on to marvel, marvel covers some important stuff you will never see in another book, as people have mentioned above. It may not be your cup of tea, but for LFL purposes when they need to go back and dicuss those periods in anyway, Marvel is were they source the information. Be it by pulling a character or place, or even seldomly a plot point. DH since it's a comic company tends to do most of the using of marvel, because marvel was it's predecesser.

I heard people use the arguement against JJK and YJK, because they are kid's books they serve no importance and are not part of continuity. But hmmmm, guess what characters have made their appearences, Tahiri has become a main character. If LFL decides hmmm, we need a character like such and such, you have any ideas? LFL like them will say ah yes, remember so and so in marvel, they would be perfect. This is why marvel of recent has been getting coverage in The rpg, and the Essential guides because they are showing that they can be used. Even new chronology have been made to show how they fit together. Those books happen to be used by the authors, they can and will take characters from them. We might even get mentioning back to some marvel

 

Dewlanna--

"I just don't think that the Marvel stories are important enough to the over all saga to bother with, I haven't seen them have any impact on the rest of the EU."

Tell me again why Corran would have expected Jan Dodonna to be dead, Dewlanna. HINT: It has something to do with a Marvel story.

Valiento also has an extremely good point about Tahiri. Have you read CONQUEST yet,
lass? Try reading that book and telling me that Junior Jedi Knights is of little consequence--or even YJK. No spoilers, mind you...you don't need to know more than the fact that Ikrit and Tahiri are prominently featured in the Dramatis Personae...

 

Dewlanna...
You rather hypocritically recognized the fact of a shared universe like the Star Wars franchise...
"...is very much a mainline story.
Even if YOU don't think the story is that important (heck there are a number of mainline stories that CAN be skipped...CS and NR come to mind) most EU fans consider it a mainline story."

The fact _IS_ that LFL considers a number of things a mainline story (Marvel, for example) even if YOU don't think the story is that important. Yes, while there are a number of mainline stories that can be skipped (TTT, HoT comes to mind), the Marvel series (and comic strip, SotME, etc) are all mainline stories. They build the characters of the mains to the point where they were years later in the other sources.
Using but one example, the fact that Luke clings to a near conceptual clone of someone he lost through a traumatic experience is more than enough evidence to show that the character of Luke is shaped by _ALL_ of his experiences throughout the years, even if some authors don't necessarily recognize it.

 

Valiento:
"Well yes while not important they are still about Main characters the movie mains so they are main line."

Ok Val. Two problems with this line of reasoning.
1) Even tho Corran is the main focus, Luke's role in the book is pivotal, both to the story and to Luke's life. It shows sides of Luke missing in the JAT.
2) I don't consider the movies some sort of sacred document whose main characters need to be the main focus of ever book. If you meant that I Jedi is not PRIMARILY about a movie main, if that is your definition of a mainline book, then OK I Jedi isn't a mainline book.
Not my definition of a mainline book. If the main stories focused only on Luke, Mara and Han, the EU would be exceedingly boring.
A book like I Jedi expands the Saga to include a character not in the movies while still featuring a movie main. The X-wing books don't do that. Wedge may BE in the the movies, but he's not a movie main and Luke and Han might make an appearance in the X-wings, but they really don't play much of a role.
Just because the main character is not a movie being you think the book is just a sideline. Well I don't

"Hell if we weant with your theory Dark forces novels would be main line. "
Dark Forces NOVELS? What are these? Aren't these originally comicbooks or something?
I Jedi was ORIGINALLY published as a hardcover novel.
I don't see any Dark Forces novel listed in the front of the NJO books with the other "Star Wars Novels?What happened when"
Not a valid comparison.

"Actually they come in Mass market paper back something a tpb is not. Trade Paperback is a higher paper stock and costs $12-$15, something most comics come in."
Sorry I meant to say Mass Market paper backs and then say that the comicbook series are later published in trade paperback. Editing flub.
Whatever the case, none of the books I mentioned were published originally as an expensive hard cover novel like I Jedi.

"Nope we can be assured that they are just trying to make a profit. That is what TPB are trying to do also,."
And if they didn't think I Jedi was an important story that the fans would pay big bucks for, they wouldn't have put it out in a hard cover.
"and other hard back sideline novels" What other hardcover sideline novels?

I guess, Val, our idea of what a mainline story is a bit different. To you it seems a mainline story must have a movie main as the main character. To me a mainline story just needs to have a real impact on the Saga as a whole. It is a story's importance that makes it mainline, not who is in it.


"I heard people use the arguement against JJK and YJK, because they are kid's books they serve no importance and are not part of continuity."
You haven't hear ME say that have you?
The only reason that the JJK and YJK weren't use in the Bantam line is that they take place AFTER the last of the Bantam books...hard to refer to something that hasn't happened yet.
And yes, now that the books are being written in a time period BEYOND the JJK and YJK books, they ARE being referenced.
The Marvel and DH stories take place before the Bantam books, (for the most part) Time frame is not the reasons they are not included in the stories.


"If LFL decides hmmm, we need a character like such and such, you have any ideas?
LFL like them will say ah yes, remember so and so in marvel, they would be perfect. This is why marvel of recent has been getting coverage in The rpg, and the Essential guides because they are showing that they can be use"
Never said they COULDN'T be used, just said they HAVEN'T been used.


"Just because a book appears as an rpg, or resource book, or kids book, or game, or comic, it's all the same to Lucasfilm the can and will use elements from all their companies. That is why it's called a shared expande universe."
Agreed.
But the question still remains, "have any of the Marvel stories had much of an impact on the novels?" Not yet that I can see. Maybe in the future they will have, but so far ---no.

 

AniSS:
"Tell me again why Corran would have expected Jan Dodonna to be dead, Dewlanna. HINT: It has something to do with a Marvel story."

Yes, inded it did, but I didn't need to read the comicbook to know what was going on because Corran says something like "I thought you died in the evacuation of Yavin"
I didn't need to read an entire comicbook...no wait, this story was in the comic section of the newspaper, right?" Ok I didn't need to read 3 panels a day for weeks on end (or was it a Sunday only comic strip...in which case I didn't need to read 7 panels a week for months on end.....) to understand that when Yavin was evacuated, not everyone got off.

So far, Ani, you are the only one that has come up with any Marvel reference that shows up in a novel. Are there any from the comicbooks?


"Valiento also has an extremely good point about Tahiri. Have you read CONQUEST yet, lass?"

Yes as a matter of fact I read it last week. !
"Try reading that book and telling me that Junior Jedi Knights is of little consequence--or even YJK. "

As I said in my post to Val, *I* have NEVER doubted that the YJK and JJK were a part of the time line. And now that the novels are set in a time AFTER the JJK and YKJ, I EXPECT the happenings in them to have an effect on the NJO.
This comparing JKK/YJK nd Marvel?DH is an invalid comparison. There is no way that the events of the JJK and YJK could show up in a pre NJO novel since they hadn't happened yet.
Marvel can't say that. The Marvel events took place before most of the novels and were part of the ?history' of the SWU. Just a part that seem not to be referred to very often.

"No spoilers, mind you...you don't need to know more than the fact that Ikrit and Tahiri are prominently featured in the Dramatis Personae... "

Like I said, I've already read it and it is good to see that the kid novels are being used. They are an important part of the time line since they cover the lives of the Solo Children in their formative years and DelREy seems to be heading toward having the Solo kids take over as the main characters in the book.

I never said that the Marvel comics aren't a part of the time line. I've only said that they are not all that important and that one can enjoy the novels, both Bantam and DelRey, just fine without having to read them. There stories have had little impact, so far on the main story of Luke Skywalker as told in the novels.

 

"Dark Forces NOPVELS? What are these? Aren't these originally comicbooks or something?
I Jedi was ORIGINALLY published as a hardcover novel.
I don't see any Dark Forces novel listed in the front of the NJO books with the other "Star Wars Novels?What happened when"
Not a valid comparison"

The Dark Forces novels are not comics, they are most certainly a trilogy of novels. Published by Dark Horse, and with several pages of painted illustrations, but all three were written in prose by a well-known novelist, and all three were longer than some of the other novels.
Luke indeed did play a small role in Rebel Agent, and a bigger role in Jedi Knight. Leia, Mon Mothma also showed up in those. So by your line of reasoning that I, Jedi was mainstream because Luke played a big role, that should also apply to Dark Forces.

The Marvel series as a whole IS important to the EU. Countless Imperial plots that would have left the Rebellion destroyed were countered. Just because these events were not as recognized by the galactic population because they were covered up by the Imp propoganda machine (unlike the takeover of Coruscant which couldn't very well be covered up), doesn't mean they were unimportant or trivial.

And the EU could certainly be just as appreciated without having read the X-wing novels or I, Jedi. In fact, seeing as Courtship and TTT came out and were very well received BEFORE X-wing came out, it seems that that was the case. X-wing was just filler materiel, and I, Jedi, while published as a mainstream, was just a continuation of that. It didn't have X-wing on the covers because that would have hurt sales figures. The first half was cleaning up the JAT, the second half as far as I could tell a non-consequential vanity project of Stackpole's.

Back to the point, Marvel is an important aspect of EU, and not one to be pushed off just because it covers LITTLE important things and not BIG important things. "For the want of a horseshoe nail the kingdom was lost." What happened in Marvel could be likened to that horseshoe nail -- seemingly small, but very important.

And about Marvel having an impact on the novels, no, but then again, many of the novels didn't have an impact on the novels.

Authors tend to use mainly their own characters and disregard other authors' characters and plot points. Certain authors, in fact, take what other authors have done and completely turn it around to suit their own visions better. Some stories have been completely ignored by authors. Some plots have inconsistently come and gone through the whole Bantam and now, to a lesser extent, NJO line.

And so, to sum your point about the relative irrelevance of Marvel because it has little impact:
Marvel had just as much impact as many of the novels which you're saying it didn't impact. Therefore, by that line of reasoning, many of the novels should simply not be considered simply because they didn't impact in any major way the later novels.

 

"Dark Forces NOPVELS?"

Yes they are novels.

"What are these?"

Originally hardback novels with 6 beutifully drawn yet dark art each, scattered throughout every one of the novels

A audio drama version also adds alot to the part's of the book.

"Aren't these originally comicbooks or something?"

Never a comic, just a novel.

"I Jedi was ORIGINALLY published as a hardcover novel."

Like I' jedi, So were the Dark Forces novels. Later reprinted in TPBs.

"I don't see any Dark Forces novel listed in the front of the NJO books with the other "Star Wars Novels?What happened when"
Not a valid comparison."

Still a valid comparison, the reason they don't get listed, is that The literature firms of delrey/bantam/scholastic only list those novels produced by them.

DH produced the Dark forces novels so they are listed on DH timeline. They are still important stories, and Luke just like in I' Jedi has a pivotal encounter and growth of his character.

Both books get important write ups in resource guides.

"The only reason that the JJK and YJK weren't use in the Bantam line is that they take place AFTER the last of the Bantam books...hard to refer to something that hasn't happened yet.
And yes, now that the books are being written in a time period BEYOND the JJK and YJK books, they ARE being referenced.
The Marvel and DH stories take place before the Bantam books, (for the most part) Time frame is not the reasons they are not included in the stories."

Technichally they came before HOT, HOT almost messed up the YJK with point of luke falling in love with mara, and then getting married in union. Then in jjk, and yjk we don't see luke and mara together at all. A fix had to be applied. Which is not bad, it still works, and HOT and what mistakes it had have been corrected.

"Not yet that I can see. Maybe in the future they will have, but so far ---no."

But that's my point if something from marvel is needed they will be used, DH has done so already, so has NJO to a small degree. So did bantam's x-wing series. So yes they have been mentioned, just no reason to regurgitate whole scenes so people know who such and such came from.

Which comes to the point that NJO, from it's early rules was a series you could start up and not have to wade through backhistory of the bantam line just to understand what was going on, infact they said that all other stories were not important, only new story arc was. Pretty much all refrences in the njo, be it a character being used majorly, or just a name throw, they do not require you to go back and read bantam. The characters come in do their stuff, and the new readers will just see them as a made up character. As the author explains their personality. In most cases the NJO, has been a new start over of the EU. Refrences of any type, have been done for our enjoyment if you happened to read the old stuff. The timeline there is handy if you want to go back and see what came before. The EC was created to be a book for those who want to know what came before but don't have the time to read all the books. while also adding new stuff for those who wonder what happened with certain hanging threads.

I also agree with you that side stories are needed to flesh out the universe of other possible stories so that mains don't get drab. It's One of the reasons I'm sad knightfall won't be released. But the importance to know is that alot of fans of the movies, expect to come in and read about their movie heroes. If a book leaves all them out, or just a few, and doesn't seem to show that it revolves around them, they won't pick up the book. Believe me there was more than 10 people groups(on this board from time to time) that admited they picked up I'jedi looked at the back of the book, saw it wasn't about luke and set it back on the shelf. It wasn't until later that they picked it up again and read it and enjoyed it.

Marvel has never been forgotten by lfl, it's just that LFL/bantam made the policy of not listing synopses of it in their novel lines, so as to not confuse peopl

 

"Technichally they came before HOT,"
I think you are wrong here.
The YKJ take place during those 5 or 6 years between VotF and VP. That is one reason VP was set as long after VotF as it was, to avoid happening while the YJK are happening.
The JJK and YJK were WRITTEN before Hot and that is why Luke and Mara are not seen together. GL didn't want the fans knowing that L&M would be together eventfully until VotF.
So KJA was purposefully vague about Luke through out most of the YJK. He's always "off" somewhere unless he is actively helping the kids.
The only conflict between HoT and YKJ is that, for story purposes, Zahn didn't want Leia as Chief of State, but she IS chief of state in the JJK and YKJ so Zahn sent her on a leave of absence.

I'll address some of the other points in Val's post later tonight.

 

The Dark Forces books are much too short to be considered NOVELS.

 

They're, in terms of word count, at least the same length as the YJK books, which are considered YA novels but novels nonetheless.

 

I don't know what the official definition in terms of word count are of novel, novellete, novela, etc, but I do know that's not the point here anyway, the point is whether they were comics, and the secondary point whether they deserve recognition.

 

"Technichally they came before HOT,"
I think you are wrong here.
The YKJ take place during those 5 or 6 years between VotF and VP."

I know what year they set at, so I am not wrong I refer to the prinnting date, not when they are set.

"That is one reason VP was set as long after VotF as it was, to avoid happening while the YJK are happening.
The JJK and YJK were WRITTEN before Hot and that is why Luke and Mara are not seen together. GL didn't want the fans knowing that L&M would be together eventfully until VotF."

Really it probably would have worked better if HOT was set after YJK, that way zahn avoided any possible continuity glitch, and no fix would be needed.

"So KJA was purposefully vague about Luke through out most of the YJK. He's always "off" somewhere unless he is actively helping the kids.
The only conflict between HoT and YKJ is that, for story purposes, Zahn didn't want Leia as Chief of State, but she IS chief of state in the JJK and YKJ so Zahn sent her on a leave of absence."

As I said he could have pulled that off if he set the book after yjk. Which would have saved problems that had to be fixed elsewhere, your not a yjk, or jjk detractor, but some people are, and those are the most common excuses to try to say they didn't happen. I used it as an analogy.

I'll address some of the other points in Val's post later tonight.

 

Mastadge...
Same reason why Zahn did not have the first novels of the 1990's. Troy Denning did. Troy Denning's novels were published by West End Games in 1990.

Some may opine that their own personal opinion of what a novel should be is different from what a novel is, but the point remains that a novel is a novel regardless if it's an illustrated novel, an interactive novel, an adult novel, a sub-adult novel, a young adult novel, an old adult novel, a middle-aged novel, a novel with illustrations.

I think for the sake of a discussion, we can agree that a novel is a novel.

 

WHY AM I BEING IGNORED!!!!


EDIT: I POST THIS AS SOMEONE IS RESPONDING TO ME AND NOW I FEEL DUMB AND I'M USING ALL CAPS. THANK YOU AND SORRY GHENGIS!

 

Valiento -

Every book should be a fresh start, as every book is some reader's first book. So, yes, the NJO should be able to be read without reading the Bantam books.

But the point in question is whether a new book uses events, characters, continuity from an older published product.

The NJO builds directly on events from Bantam, Dark Horse and WEG. Mara Jade Skywalker is an example of one character who plays an integral role in both the Bantam books and the NJO books, and appeared in WEG stories, video games and Dark Horse comics.

But the Bantam books do not build on earlier EU materials. Not one Marvel character plays an integral role in both. Not one comic strip character plays an integral role in both.

Understand the difference?

Gatherer, I have seen other threads closed for going off-topic. I saw DL threaten the Mara Jade Fan Club thread with closure for going off-topic when they stopped discussing just Mara. Of course, certain factions got that thread closed anyway, so perhaps that was just a political bluff of expediency. I would hate to think that this forum is becoming as arbitrary as others that I can think of, but c'est la vie.

 

Yet another LFL statement regarding the older expanded universe continuity from the Offiical Site:
http://www.starwars.com/eu/
"If your experience with Star Wars has been the just the movies, you're only getting a fraction of the entire tale. Since the start, the Star Wars saga has been expanded through novels, comics..."

As if anyone had any doubts the saga was being expanded through novels, comics etc.

 

Mara's one of the official sidebars on the official site, right along with obiwan, padme, and the movie characters

 

And Shira Brie gets as much as Mara does under Luke's EU databank description - they both get whole individual sections comparable with each other.

 

And Callista gets no mention at all!!