Everybodys personal opinon:EU starting from scratch

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"And this is not my theory, it is a direct quote from Lucas that it was the Sith that caused the imbalance."

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I find it solidifies an argument when a direct quote is correctly referenced, citing both the source information and the quote, verbatim. So, PB, if you could, would you let us know where, when, and what was said by Uncle George in regards to the Sith? Thanks!

I agree that the imbalance was due largely in part to the Sith and their increased activity surrounding the events of TPM, but I'm not certain Uncle George eliminates the possibility of other darksiders. These were dark times in general (or the beginning of dark times in the Republic, at any rate).

Furthermore, I believe that Lucas set up Palpatine, not the Sith, as the ultimate villain, the one that must be defeated for the hero to be victorious. Now, this might be splitting hairs, and it is understandable that one would think that with the most powerful Sith Lord the Sith Order dies, too. However, again, I'm not so certain GL rules out the possibilities of other Sith being out there, un-affiliated with the Sith we see in the movies.

Who knows. All I know is that it is a big galaxy (heck, it's a big Universe, as we're finding out in the NJO), and Lucas allowed others to tell stories in his fictional realm. He understands that there are so many possibilities in the GFFA, that the whole story can't be told in six films or by one man (see the foreword to Alan Dean Foster's Splinter of the Mind's Eye for the exact quote). Lucas allowed for these things to happen. He certainly has not approved every single story told, but he permitted their existence and I'm glad he did.

When it comes down to it, as it has been said by many people over the years, the Saga is made up of the parts you the reader choose. Debating over who has chosen the "right" way to view the Saga has its good points, but it is not the end game.

What is? you ask.

Enjoyment of this wonderful epic tale.

 

As a simple note to add to this discussion, I've noticed that lately people have been putting words in Lucas' mouth so to speak.
We've all been doing that to a degree, but it is never more prevailing then in this thread as with the debate of what truly caused the imbalance in the Force.
To best explain what Balance is then refer to this Lucas quote:

• If good and evil are mixed things become blurred - there is nothing between good and evil, everything is grey. In each of us we have balanced these emotions, and in the Star Wars saga the most important point is balance, balance between everything. It is dangerous to lose this.
  
  -George Lucas - CUT interview 09/07/99

Thus, imbalance is not the existence of the Sith themselves but rather the mixing of both the Sith and Jedi.
This is easily seen in Episode I when Palpatine briefly mentions that the Senate is full of greedy, squabbling politicians.
And, as we know Palpatine is slowly becoming the leader of the Republic, the same man who is the surviving link to the Sith who were destroyed long ago.
Imbalance is caused as the result, for no system of good intentions can have a man with bad intentions looking out for the greater good of the galaxy.

 

there's too much to start from scratch.
I'd say rewriting any part that contractdicts and reprint everything. Sort of what Salvatore did with the Crystal Shard. Thought that was just a few lines and not entire chapters.

 

<<They didn't know it was a Sith Lord causing the imbalance, they just knew that the imbalance existed.
>>

Exactly. And if the "imbalancing" of the Force does not solely rest on the actions of a Sith Lord, then things should not have been disrupted six years after the Battle of Endor, when Palpatine made his short-lived return.

<<You can ignore it like you do everything else that conflicts with your EU but that's Lucas' version of what happened. >>

We're not ignoring it. Just making it fit. It does not contradict anything...unless Lucas says it does. BTW - Lucas' "vision" is not always the best course of action. Prime example being Greedo, both him firing first and having a kiddie scuffle with Anakin. You can view Lucas as God and the Grand Man in your view of the saga, but a lot of us ( including me ) just see him as the creator ( for which we are humbly indebted for creating such a cool universe ) and just the main "composer" for a piece that spans other viewpoints and styles aside from his own.

<<However, again, I'm not so certain GL rules out the possibilities of other Sith being out there, un-affiliated with the Sith we see in the movies.
>>

I don't think there was any between the PT and ROTJ in the EU anyway. Not full-fledged Sith Lords at least. After Palpatine and Vader died, that's when their succesors, Lumiya and Flint, grabbed the reigns. Flint then renounced the Sith, and Lumiya trained Carnor Jax. Hmm. This seems to tie into Lord Mauly Maul's "back-up Sith" theory in PSA. Perhaps Jax WAS that back-up in case Flint wasn't worthy or died. Anyway...that's all post-ROTJ, so the rule of 2 has not yet been disrupted. All other EU Sith are pre-1000 years before ANH, before Bane reorganized the Sith Order.

"Your focus determines your reality."

 

There are just to many books out there that people like for them to just start over. Sure some where not the greatest but we all like different things and there are many I would not like to have over-written (for lack of a better term). Some of the post are debating what the unbalance in the force was. I wonder.. maybe it wasn't just that there were a couple of sith still around. maybe it was the fact that Sidious was growing in power. His actions to take the galaxy may be what is causing the unbalance. Two sith training in someone?s basement may not cause a noticeable disruption but when one is working on become a dictator it becomes a problem.
Still sometimes I wonder what the fuss is about a few errors in continuity. I mean no offense, I respect the fact that everyone has an opinion. I just personally can't get real worked up about a date being wrong or one line that says something that isn't true. I guess my memory isn't good enough to remember those sorts of details anyway.

 

I guess i'm going to go sit in the corner and avoid flying objects. I dig pretty much anything Star Wars. Maybe i'm sick, maybe i'm insane. Perhaps I might even be a.....fanboy, although I doubt it since I don't own a pair of SW Underoos. I don't see much of a need for a SW:EU restart, not for the reasons that have been given, but because i'd have to go and buy 2 more bookshelves. As if I don't already have enough to worry about as it is

 

I have starwars boxers.. those count as underoos?

 

Nah, boxers are ok, underoos are tighty-whiteys. The vote is still out on boxer-briefs though.

 

Finally getting around to reading this and I have a few comments
RNolan Why I for one wouldn't find it preferable is that I personally vastly prefer the EU to the films.
Me too.

Motterman:Of course the EU would have worked out better if they would
have waited until the Prequels were finished.
Sorry, I'd rather have stories that might not mesh perfectly than wait until 2005 (nearly 30 years after ANH) for SW books.
It WOULD have been nice if Uncle George had thought things out in advance, so when Zahn and others asked the Flanneled One about the "past" he could have given them the "right" answers.

All those stories where Luke is "flying blind" while trying to figure out all that the Jedi did in their day, how they acted, how they trained their apprentices, etc. are pretty much what the authors were forced to stick with.
But, Motterman, this is how it would be. How would Luke know what happened in pre-Imperial days when Palpatine did his best to wipe out any trace of the Jedi? I think the authors did a fine job.
With the last couple of NJO books, you are starting to see elements of the info gained from TPM already.
But this is WRONG. Where is Luke getting this knowledge, did he watch TPM?

Padme Bra ; In other words, try to recognize that some people don't recognize EU in the other forums and don't try to force it on anyone. Thanks.
P-B, I ?ve never tried to force movie fans to like the EU, but I've had plenty of them call me all sorts of names for preferring the entertainment I get from the books over that I get from the movies.
If you don't like the EU, then don't bother with it. Go see a new story every 3 (or 20) years and watch the same ones over and over again in between if that's how you like to be entertained.

Why do the movie fanatics worry about the books "ruining the movies?"
Just ignore them. There is no way that anything in the books makes the movies any less entertaining for those who like them, just as what ever GL puts in the new movies can not change the grandeur of a Zahn novel, the action of a Stackpole book, the adventure of an Allston tome, etc.

Spiderdevil: See how easy it is? We could end the whole EU debate if the bashers would say "Fine, just don't bring it in our film forums." The pro-EUers can then respond "Okay, as long as you will let us enjoy our expanded universe in peace."
FYI, I have NEVER posted in a movie forum. To me the movies were nice little films that kept me entertained for a few hours. That's where it ends, so I don't go to their forums. I'm not a movie "basher" I just don't see them as the "be all and end all" of the Movies. I respect the movie lovers right to think the movies are the only Star Wars with meaning. I just wish certain movie fans would have as much respect for my opinions.

Jedi Ben Good post! I agree with your assessment of GL and his movies.

The Balance of the Force debate is interesting. I'd like to see it in its own topic without the EU vs Movies debate. Let me know when this discussion has its own place and I'll share some of my ideas.

 

Dewlanna,

You raise a number of good points about the movie vs EU debate which can just as easily be applied to the EU vs EU debate. For example, you said...
"P-B, I ?ve never tried to force movie fans to like the EU, but I've had plenty of them call me all sorts of names for preferring the entertainment I get from the books over that I get from the movies."

Just as I have had several of the EU fans call me all sorts of names for preferring the EU entertainment I get from certain books over that I get from other EU books. I'm fairly sure you would tend to know the things people have said to try and diminish the classic parts of the EU such as Marvel comics, etc.

"I respect the movie lovers right to think the movies are the only Star Wars with meaning. I just wish certain movie fans would have as much respect for my opinions"

Just as I wish certain EU fans would have as much respect for my opinions as well. It's good to see you talk the good talk about respecting opinions. Perhaps if others learned that this community would be a much friendlier place to all of our opinions.

 

G12, you can read and enjoy your comicbooks to your heart's content, just don't expect me to get any more enjoyment out of them then I do the movies.
For me (please note this is an expression of personal preference, not an indictment of the genre nor its aficionados) comicbooks do not deliver enough entrainment for the money spent. They also suffer from the same lack of depth that I find in most movies.
I'm a reader, I like words alone to tell a story. My own imagination is far superior to any artist's rendering, any make-up artist's interpretation, or any special effect person's techniques in illustrating a story. And I prefer the depth of story, setting and character available only in novel form
.
The only time I take issue with G12 and the other comic fans is when they seek to make the comics more important to everyone than the novels.
To some people the comics will be the ultimate SW experience, to others it will be the novels and short stories, and for others the movies remain the definitive SW encounter. No one source of entertainment is better than the other, not even the movies. All have been sanctioned by George Lucas, all are legitimate expressions of the Star Wars story.

 

Dewlanna...
"G12, you can read and enjoy your comicbooks to your heart's content, just don't expect me to get any more enjoyment out of them then I do the movies."

The comics are a small part of what gets discriminated against. No one expects you you have to like or dislike anything. That's entirely up to each person. However, the same tactics which have been used by the movie-only fans to diminish the EU have been used by EU fans to diminish other parts of the EU - namely trying to attack its very existence.

"The only time I take issue with G12 and the other comic fans is when they seek to make the comics more important to everyone than the novels."

However, as is most common - it's the other way around. It is the novel fans who seek to make their favorite stories more important to everyone than the other parts of the EU. Another good example is the case of the Dark Forces stories, or of the SWRPG stories. But, it is good to see you find this new outlook on everything...

"All have been sanctioned by George Lucas, all are legitimate expressions of the Star Wars story."

It's a far cry away from where you and a few others were at in the past discussions on the validity of the pre-1991 expanded universe. Welcome aboard.

 

While they are a "legitimate expression, the fact still remains that the influence of the Marvel comics upon the post-1991 EU is merely for dropping character names here or there.

Could it have had more of an influence? I certainly believe it could have, but LFL's attitude seems to be directed towards not paying attention to the Marvel comics.

Bear in mind that Star Wars belongs to LFL, not Timothy Zahn, Kathy Tyres, KJA, MAS or any other author. Therefore, what was stopping LFL from forcing these authors to incorporate characters and mentionings of the Marvel comics into their novels? Nothing. This strikes me as meaning that, except for character references, that the storyline of Marvel is apocrophyl. Zahn was provided with WEG sourcebooks, why wasn't he also provided with Marvel comics?

 

This explains the numerous references to Marvel Comics in the EU Databank entries at The Official Site, or how nearly every issue of Star Wars Gamer has at least one major reference to the Marvel Star Wars comics (such as #5's profile of Darth Lumiya)?

I think not.

 

GAW...
"While they are a "legitimate expression, the fact still remains that the influence of the Marvel comics upon the post-1991 EU is merely for dropping character names here or there."

Very far from the truth. The influence of the Marvel comics and other pre-1991 stories has been constantly felt upon the continuity, especially now. One only has to look at the newest of LFL's Star Wars products such as the Essential Chronology, STar Wars Gamer magazine and even their own TOS website to see the influence of these items in "modern" continuity. More importantly, it was only several months ago (Star Wars Gamer #3) that of all the expanded universe items, only Marvel was deemed to be Canon because of its classic nature. While things have shifted again, it has only been to bring the other expanded universe elements up to the level of Marvel, not the other way around.

"...but LFL's attitude seems to be directed towards not paying attention to the Marvel comics."

Not so. I can point to a number of LFL sources which point to just the opposite over the years.

"Bear in mind that Star Wars belongs to LFL, not Timothy Zahn, Kathy Tyres, KJA, MAS or any other author. Therefore, what was stopping LFL from forcing these authors to incorporate characters and mentionings of the Marvel comics into their novels?"

Mainly the fact that the first novel HttE was set four years and eleven months (+/-) after the last of these stories, more than anything else. And of course, a definite failure on the part of the author to have any meaningful concept of existing Star Wars expanded universe continuity would have had to play a role as well. Would you like to see the entire Essential Chronology reprinted in its entirety within every single expanded universe item so that you know how the new ties in with all prior items? Not only would it get old, but I'd hate to have an additional $20.00 tacked on to every single Star Wars expanded universe product I choose to buy.

"This strikes me as meaning that, except for character references, that the storyline of Marvel is apocrophyl. Zahn was provided with WEG sourcebooks, why wasn't he also provided with Marvel comics?"

For the same reason Salvatore was provided with the movies as source material for Vector Prime. The volume of material is such that they can't give every author everything. Does it mean that everything by Bantam is apocryphal because Del Rey authors weren't provided with every single prior book to have to read? I certainly don't think so.

 

<<RNolan Why I for one wouldn't find it preferable is that I personally vastly prefer the EU to the films.
Me too.
>>

That's crazy. I hope you guys aren't just lumping the Classic trilogy in with TPM when you say this...? IMO, the films are vastly superior. They aren't as complex as some of the novel plots, but they only have 2 hours to work in, and George Lucas has added in the most subtle things to these films that no SW author has pulled off. Not only in characterization and plot ( in some cases ), but designs ( curtesy of Chiang, McQuarrie etc. ) and mythological resonances. I find the novels and comics to be entertaining as much as the next Mace Antilles, but they don't even come close to a SW film...

 

AniSS & Genghis,

I am well aware of the articles that Gamer has published. Hopefully I may soon be published within an upcoming issue. I sent-off a submission three weeks ago for consideration. According to their submission guidelines, I have 3-5 more weeks to find out whether or not it will be accepted for publication. But thus far Gamer really doesn't interest me much. Need more Jedi, Sith and Empire stuff. Issue 5 was most enjoyable.

Gamer, issue 3 p.10

Elements from the Marvel comics that don't tread upon that which has been established in the films, novels, comics, et cetera, are being integrated into official Star Wars canon . . . "

--- Ben Harper

More importantly, it was only several months ago (Star Wars Gamer #3) that of all the expanded universe items, only Marvel was deemed to be Canon because of its classic nature.

I seem to have quite a different impression from Mr. Harper's statement than you do. From his statement, the novels strike me as beinh higher up on the totem pole, just beneath the novels, than the comics. I base this on the specific media items that Mr. Harper singled-out and the order in which he did so.

There was no mention of Marvel being canon because of its "classic" nature.

Now, Genghis, don't be faulting the author for not knowing about the comics--especially since there were out-of-print for several years before HttE hit the shelves.

And what was stopping Sue Rostoni from doing a bit of editing when Luke was facing C'Baoth at the end of TLC? Yes, Luke was fighting Luuke, but Luuke was merely an extension of C'Baoth's will, so Luke was really fighting C'Baoth via proxy. Now what was stopping Sue Rostoni from inserting a couple sentences like these:

"In those few moments when Luke first saw C'Baoth he thought back to when he fought his father on the Second Death Star and when he faced Darth Lumiya (insert appropriate time reference) after Palpatine's demise. He remembered her ruthlessness, cunning and power and saw those qualities reflected within C'Baoth, albeit imperfectly due to C'Baoth's insanity."

Or perhaps when Luke was dealing with Exar Kun, KJA could have made mention of Lumiya. He mentioned Dark Empire, why not have LFL give him some info on Lumiya for the same purpose?

For the same reason Salvatore was provided with the movies as source material for Vector Prime.

But when Zahn wrote HttE, the bulk of the continuity only consisted of those comics, the movie novelizations and Splinter. The amont of material was dar less when HttE came out than VP.

I have never advocated/insisted/whatever word you want to use that RAS had to read every prior novel. I have only indicated that he would have been well-served to have read VotF

Sturm,

I prefer the novels because of the more complex plots (of course not all the novels are complex, and the NJO does a great job of mirroring the simplicity of the movies). The designs are irrelevant because the author has commissioned a far greater designer than Lucas ever could: the imagination of the reader. And I'm pleased that the EU doesn't have all that skin-deep mythobabble weighing it down.

 

Sturm Antilles,"That's crazy. I hope you guys aren't just lumping the Classic trilogy in with TPM when you say this...? IMO, the films are vastly superior. They aren't as complex as some of the novel plots, but they only have 2 hours to work in, and George Lucas has added in the most subtle things to these films that no SW author has pulled off. Not only in characterization and plot ( in some cases ), but designs ( curtesy of Chiang, McQuarrie etc. ) and mythological resonances. I find the novels and comics to be entertaining as much as the next Mace Antilles, but they don't even come close to a SW film..."


I most disagree. I don't like TPM much certainly, but while I enjoy the OT I find it lacking in depth. I know you may say this is because of the broad, mythological canvas they are painted on. but frankly I am not a man for mythology. I am a 'low-fantasy' person to use Gary Gygax's phrase. The resonances detract from a story for me. It is not opera and escapism that draws me but kitchen sink realism. The novels have this in spades. They are grey against the pure white of the films. That is the way I preffer it. The time for stories of gods and heroes is fading, perhaps it is time for the stories of men?

Yours

 

Dewlanna...
"For me (please note this is an expression of personal preference, not an indictment of the genre nor its aficionados) comicbooks do not deliver enough entrainment for the money spent. They also suffer from the same lack of depth that I find in most movies."

Actually, I feel quite the opposite. Star Wars would not exist the way it was without artwork. In terms of expanded universe products, the axiom: A picture is worth a thousand words certainly fits. A single 32-page comic from Marvel could easily fill a many-thousand word novel. It is the artwork which hearkens back to the roots of Star Wars - the concept sketches of Ralph McQuarrie, Nilo Rodis-Jamiro and even Douglas Chang. But if those pictures formed the foundation of the Star Wars movie saga - pictures without style, it is the comic books and other artwork which forms the foundation of the expanded universe. Archie Goodwin, Roy Thomas, etc. all added the Star Wars style, infinitely enriching the Star Wars universe. It is these pictures which unlock the imagination much more than any explicit words can ever accomplish, for comic books are as much a story between the scenes as they are in them. It is tapping the reader's imagination where Star Wars comic books excel. Movement, color, artistic style - none of which can ever be effectively be tapped simply by prose alone - all require the reader's own imagination to be fully realized. It is all of these complex factors in combination, plus the simple prose of novels which make comic books a much more effective medium to tell a fictional story like the Star Wars saga. Comic adaptations and/or comic books are not the right fit for all genres, but for epic fantasy, it is one of the best mediums. However, I admit, some people are not adept at picking out the more subtle nuances of the art and completely overlook the style, color, plotting, inking and other effects. That requires one to open up their imagination to the worlds being shown. I suspect that's why they simply see a "funny book" when they read comics. I'm not saying all people who dislike them lack imagination, however such people certainly exist.

 

. I'm not saying all people who dislike them lack imagination, however such people certainly exist.
Funny, that's kind of the way I feel about people who need visual aids to "get" the story.
Genghis, MY imagination is more than able to supply fantastic images based on the written word alone.
I find that comicbooks diminish my enjoyment of a story because the artist's imagination is different from mine. I want to form my own idea of what Corran, Gavin and the rest of the Rogues look like. I want to see and hear in my mind the action of a lightsaber duel. I want see with MY mind's eye what a dying world ship looks like. I don't need or want the assistance of pictures or sound effects to enjoy a good story. What I want and need are a complex plot, in depth characterizations, lots of physical action, even more mental and emotional action... all the things that a comicbook or 2 hour movie are just too short for.

 

You know what I like? This may sound way out there and wild, but...

I like comics.

I like the films.

I like the novels.

I like the audio dramas.

And all for different reasons. One medium is not "better" than the other.

 

Dewlanna...
"Funny, that's kind of the way I feel about people who need visual aids to "get" the story. "

As do I. Those people I would lump in the same "imaginationless" group I talked about. If they need a visual aid to "get" the story, then most likely they're incapable of realizing the "1,000 words" that the picture is actually worth. I would tend to classify such people as those incapable of recognizing tone, style, rythym, pacing - all major story elements. They'll probably see "funny books" just like the imaginationless literature fan.

"Genghis, MY imagination is more than able to supply fantastic images based on the written word alone."

That's good, because it requires much more imagination to find all of the words behind a single picture. A comic book possibly filled with hundreds of pictures is equivalent to a major trilogy work of some hundred-thousand words. It requires a lot of imagination to realize that story the way the author and artist have intended.

"I find that comicbooks diminish my enjoyment of a story because the artist's imagination is different from mine."

One I recognize as a valid concern. However, the same problem applies to novels equally as much. I can empathize with you, because I have read many Star Wars stories in which my enjoyment has been diminished because the novelist's imagination is different from mine. A perfect comic example was Dark Empire - a product originally slated to be released under Marvels "mature" line. The dark tone and style caught many by surprise - many liked it, some did not. Such is the nature of the beast for comics as well as novels.

"I want to form my own idea of what Corran, Gavin and the rest of the Rogues look like."

That's all well and good, but LFL keeps a fairly tight reign on their "bible." They determine how their characters act, look, etc. You don't have the right to decide how Corran looks anymore than you have over the way he acts. If I visualized Corran to be a purple-skinned Rodian and talked about him as such here, people would think I was crazy - and rightfully so. Corran looks like LFL wants him to look.

"I want to see and hear in my mind the action of a lightsaber duel."

And you can - Star Wars has always been about the "story." Things were never pristine like Star Trek - from the very beginning, everything had a story to it - behind the scenes. Comics are the same way - there is as much or more a story between the panels seen by an imaginative mind's eye as there is shown in the panels. Especially with respect to action.

"What I want and need are a complex plot, in depth characterizations, lots of physical action, even more mental and emotional action... all the things that a comicbook or 2 hour movie are just too short for."

I disagree, but the things you describe have been captured better in the movies and comics than in the novels. For instance, you cannot find a more in-depth character-driven story than the rise and fall of Ulic Qel-Droma. The entire Tales of the Jedi comic series is literally filled with epic-scale, complex plot, in depth characterization, lots of [hysical action and emotional action...

Much more than could've worked in a novel.

 

Way back on the first and second page we were discussing about restarting the EU, then someone said no and that it would be confusing if new AU books were to come out.

Then someone else said to title the new AU books that clearly states its not of the first timeline.

WELL ive been thinking about what titles to use:

STAR WARS
Infinities
Alternate Destiny Series

The Empire won at Endor, but with the loss of Palpy, Vader, DSII, and Executor. The Rebellion nearly completely crushed, but living on still. An internal war tearing the Empire apart, the Rebellion takes advantage of it to strike back. This timeline would have more Imperials, with Rebels of course.

or

STAR WARS
Infinities
Dark Galaxy Series

The war continues dispite the loss at Endor, neither side gain any ground in the Galaxy. The New Republic has not formed yet as it still struggles against the avenge Galactic Empire. The Jedi return with the help of Luke Skywalker and Princess Leia, both full fledge Jedi Knights.
******

Some events from the 1st EU would still happen, some would not. Characters from the 1st would exist but maybe not die as they did in the 1st EU, perhaps earlier or later. Etc etc etc.

It can work out, if the fans are willingly to try something new AND if LFL makes sure they LABEL the new novels appropriately to keep confusion out.

 

No...

Too confusing, especially for newer fans. The EU is not broken. I don't want it to be fixed. What I want is for all the elements to work close together at times, and avoid any continuity errors as best as possible. And I want more new EU to tie into the older or more obscure works.

 

Oh God no. I don't want the EU to turn into "Crisis on Infinite Earths" or whatever the title of that horrible DC Comics story arc was.