[NRW] What *sort* of ship is a Super Star Destroyer?!

This is wrong. There are 1,000,000 full member worlds in the Empire, with FIFTY MILLION colonies, protectorates and local government according to The StarWars RoleplayingGameSourcebook, Second Addition, page 126. That doesn't even include the "countless unregistered settlements" mentioned in TESB. If only ten percent of the major worlds (2 permille of the entire 51 million worlds under imperial control) have defenses comparable to Alderaan, 25,000 ISDs are never enough.

They not only have to maintain order, they also have to protect imperial assets against hostile forces (rebels, pirates, mutinous elements of the ImperialForces). Coruscant is protected by at least 24 ISDs and one Executor, Kuat has its own defense-fleet + 15 ISDs of the Empire, an Ubiqtorate-base like Tangrene is defended by 2 ISDs (DFR-Sourcebook). There come a lot of ISDs together to do all those things.

If there is no shield like the one used by the rebels at Hoth and a Ion-Cannon, that can take out an ISD with one or two shots and costs only 500,000 credits, then yes.

Since present-day earth doesn't have a planetary shield, yes. But there are a lot of planets with planetary shields in the SW-galaxy. The Last Command makes mention of a number of planets in the outer rim (their version of Kansas or the third world) with planetary shields. The Outer Rim. Guess trice, how the defenses of a core-world must look.

Which was stupid. There were a lot of private or corporate armies. The Bank or Aargau had the largest private army in the galaxy during the times of the republic, the House of Tagge had at least one million men under weapons. Not to forget the forces of BankingClan, Trade-Federation or local sector-forces like the one of Kuat, Corellia or Humbarine (AOTC:ICS), which contained large ships like Star Battlecruisers and Star Dreadnoughts (both colloqually called "SuperStarDestroyer").

Wrong again. Invincible-Class Dreadnoughts and Alsakan-Class Warships from WEG. Star Dreadnoughts and Star Battlecruisers from AOTC:ICS. Trade-Federation-Battleships in TPM/AOTC.

And your claim about the ISD consuming a lot of resources is also rubbish.

According to WEGs StrikeForce Shantipoles a ISD cost twenty times more, than a Nebulon-B-frigate, which itself costs 194 million credits.

So an ISD would cost 3.88 billion credits.

According to WEGs Han Solo and the Corporatesector-Sourcebook a voting Sponsor for the CSA has to invest 50
quadrillion credits to become a member, what would equal 13 million ISDs.

Sorry, but WEG disagrees with you

 

If you look at the movies, they are far larger. In fact, a Venator can fit in between it's mandibles (occured in RotS during docking maneuver in Battle of Coruscant).

But, they are majorly undergunned for their size. They are really only good as carriers.

Anyway, the ISD has never been some sort of ultimate Imperial symbol of might. It's a destroyer. ESB portrayed one swatted out of the air like a silly toy by a black-market artillery piece. RotJ portrayed them losing to a smaller force of smaller ships...a Star Cruiser shreds one onscreen. Further, there are many intermediate classes of ship between the Imperial Star Destroyer and the Executor that are canon...not to mention logical.

 

ROTS might have shown a new type of Trade-Federation-battleship.

Aside from that already the ships seen in TPM have more weapons, than spin-off sources (even the ICS:TPM) give them. The TF-battleships in TPM have not only weapons in their side-trenches, but also on the top- (and probabely down) - side of the "donut".

 

Lukes are 3.2 km in diameter or something, but have poorly placed weaponry that is outdated by the ImpStar's guns. Therefore, an ImpStar could probably take one or two Lukes down at least, regardless of size.

ImpStars are the standard cruiser of the Imperial Navy, and it is stated multiple times. Aside from the Super Star Destroyers, introduced in small numbers after the Battle of Yavin and only really seen a lot during the reborn Emperor crisis, and possibly aside from Home One, they are the most powerful warships ever built. That is not to say that they are invincible, but with a fleet of 25,000 of them, the Empire is pretty well secured. They have a decent hyperdrive rating, nothing spectacular, and with their large numbers of support ships (Lancers, Carracks, Nebulon-B Frigates, Dreadnaught heavy cruisers, Strike Cruisers, Escort Carriers, Interdictors, Acclamators, Vindicators, Victories, Rand Ecliptics, Star Galleons, Tectors, etc.) they were fairly well capable of guarding their Empire against almost any threat. Planetary dispute or revolt? Send over a couple Star Destroyers and maybe a few of the smaller support ships and scare the troublemakers into surrendering. Then execute them, of course.

The SSDs were built as command ships and instruments of terror, intended to lead fleets, to scatter Rebel groups, and to terrify entire oversectors into complete and total submission. They are, along with the superweapons, the very incarnation of the Tarkin Doctrine, and they don't seem to really have been built as logically designed warships at all as much as just massive leviathians with a couple thousand guns. In actuality, one could cram many more thousands of guns onto them, but Palpatine didn't want a bunch of fleet-in-ones running around under the command of ambitious flunkies like Vader, Isard, and Teshik, and so he had them built to a spec that wasn't nearly as good as it could have been. They were first and foremost built for fear.

That's why they lose a remarkable number of engagements where, judging by their size, they should ridiculously outgun the enemy.

 

I bow to Fteik on the area of 50 million colonies. Also, WEG contradicted itself with the costs. However, later editions clarified that the prices were in error.

One thing that does need to be addressed though is the Ion Cannon that was used at the Rebellion headquarters was a mammoth defense machine and also planetary shields are NOT particularly a good defense.

Why?

Because the Death's Head fleet had the planetary shield of Hoth down in about a half hour. Planetary shields costs extraordinarily large amounts of money to maintain and its a rare government that doesn't bleed itself dry by having total coverage (Coruscant is an obvious exception as is byss)

The average star destroyer can repulse through the army or starfighter core most shields without any losses.

Honestly, I think that the minimalism of the fleets decidedly serves the feeling of the movies as well as the importance of players to resolve issues. If Luke Skywalker destroys an ISD its a major blow to the Empire, not something that can be causally shrugged off.

Again, the whole feeling of making ISD's "average" ships seems to be greatly missing the point of them.

 

L_P: yep - and also, up to a point, that might explain why mangling the bows with that CM salvo was such an effective tactic - it would disproportionately attrite her weapons, and reduce her ability to carry out an Alpha Strike...

That said, there's also a question of what the main guns actually look like, and what sort of arc of fire they have. There are those visible guns in the sided turrets of the ImpStars, but I'm still not completely convinced that they're the primary guns designed for big-ship combat, rather than more manoeuvrable secondary batteries...

T_R_B: I definately think that the Ex's sheer size is meant to be a part of her psychological effect - an expression of the Tarkin Doctrine, and also a reflection of Palpatine's megalomania; but, if you want a ship which is faster and more heavily armed than the Ex, not only does she have to be much bigger, she has to have far more engine relative to armament... and whereas the number of guns is directly proportional to the amount of space you can give over to gun-turrets, speed may not be directly proportional to engine space...

Jello: 5000 sounds about right for a ~40x hull-area ~11-12mi. Unneccessary Retconn-class Star Executor, yep... do you have a breakdown of the numbers, though...?

Charlemagne[/i]: on a hull of at least 10x surface area, and presumably rather more than 10x volume, the Ex supposedly only carries 2x starfighters. I'm not sure about troops, but given that the Army commander aboard the Ex is only a newly promoted Brigadier General, that doesn't suggest anything dramatically huge...

Ex: Neither N/EGVVs bothered to say how many adn types of guns other than "a thousand," which was entirely unacceptable. 250 turbos etal is plenty enough. They fire rapidly and over the course of ten secs you can literally pee a considerable amount at a target, from a dozen batteries.

I don't care what official guide says, Impstars of course has torp capability. They're frontline combat cruiser, not some candy stick, possibly vanilla flavour with a touch of mint. COPL had them shooting torps, for eg, and if a guide forgets to say that, well, neither one mentioned the TIE Defender tractor either.

I agree.

Kudzu: There's a Super-class Star Destroyer, evidently reclassified at some point in time to be an Executor-class Super Star Destroyer, and then there's the Executor as a larger version of that, roughly twice as long and with two pair more engines. Clearly they cannot be considered to be of the same class of ship.

Nor are they explicitly stated to be as such, IIRC.

You're making my head hurt. There's no evidence for two classes of SSD, either.

And Jello's right. This is the wrong thread.

But the suggestion that the term Super-class originated as an official designation before any of the ships was named made is brilliant!

Jello: Trade Federation Lucrehulk-class Battleships?

Armed freighters that can't even deal with a handful of stunt-fighters?

Large battlecruisers that planetary systems are capable of sporting? The sort of ships that are a bit too large for ISDs to properly handle?

Kuat is hardly an ordinary "planetary system". The Mandy-class Show Home is their sales pitch, as well as everything else. And we know nothing of her genuine combat performance, either...

Kuzdu: it's not strictly true to say that the Ex doesn't operate alone - we see her acting unsupported in a system-dominance role at Bespin as a picket ship at Endor... but in a cruiser role, it hardly matters if she can't tussle with full-size Star Destroyer fleets as effortlesly as her size would suggest - she's still several ImpStars' weaponry strapped to a hugely fast engine-block...

Jello: Sorry, buddy, but that's how retcons work.

How do retconns work, exactly?

We're not discussing length here. Cease and desist, or

 

I made McEwok's head hurt! *does happy dance*

 

F_N: assuming we can accept the literal accuracy of RotS...

Again, where's the evidence these are the primary weapons?

And the replacement of twin-turrets with eight-barrelled barbettes represents a radical rearmament, if that's her main weaponry - a massive reduction in calibre...

However, WEG says the ImpStar-II has lost 10 heavy TL "batteries" and gained 50 lighter TLs. From the model, we can see the replacement of six twin-TLs (and two twin ion canon) with eight eight-barrelled guns... I suggest that there may be an at least partial correlation, but that we can't assume the sided turrets to be the main guns (or if they are, we can't assume them to be all of them)...

What sort of nonsense are you talking about???? The primary weapons of any ship has always been the biggest guns of any vessel, unless you need a dictionary to check what it means by "primary weapons" in which case, I'd start questioning your intelligence. Are you saying the movie is wrong, and you dare doubt what you saw in the damn movie? The Incredible Cross Sections itself was written under the authority of LFL and it even clearly stated the gun types. If Heavy turbolasers aren't primary weapons, but light turbolasers are, then your logic needs a serious reworking. Why, let's all think Emperor Palpatine never existed and that he was a figment of Vader's imagination, and have some booze while we are at it. WEG is wrong and shall always be wrong, and no amount of apologising for that wrongness or even any simplistitc attempt at rationalising that fundamental error will the fact that they were wrong and you sir, need to go get a degree in Engineering at the least.

Where is an ISD said not to be a ship of the line?
Are TF battleships true combat warships?
What's does the existence of "private" fleets have to do with this, exactly?
Do we have enough information on the Mandy to know her real combat potential?
The fact of the matter is that ISDs are just the average ship that was produced in great numbers so that the Empire could respond with a reasonable amount of firepower when the occasion required it. Else, a squadron of ships would be sent and if need be more power and dedicated ship killers would be sent. You don't send a WWII destroyer against a battleship do you? A ship of the line in fact was defined in the 18th/19th century as the 1st/2nd raters which incidentally carried 100 guns. But that term was disused after that in favour of more specific terms.

The point of showing the existence of large private fleet was to justify the fact that the Empire could well finance such a huge fleet by virtue of corporate taxes and taxing the citizens to the death. I have no idea if the TF BB were upgraded in anyway, and that battle above Naboo is a fluke of nature of the highest level, and using it as an example just goes to show how desperate you are in finding "evidence" to support your flimsy claims. Not to mention it would take a few Venators to slice through the shields easily. It is enough to know the Mandators would have vapourised the ISD enough times over.

 

One thing Fingolfin you may need to recall is, you do realize (Corporate Sector aside) there ARE no private armies like you're describing right? Palpatine DESTROYED the private armies of all the corporations and various holdings. The Empire was built in part to consolidate that no planet would have their own private forces.

The Clone wars eliminated them all. It's just like the rubbish that Aethersprites are anything but outdated compared to X-wings and other craft.

It is enough to know the Mandators would have vapourised the ISD enough times over.

The entire EU is against you here.

 

It's inconsistent stats. The Clone Wars ships, as given by Saxton, are way faster than the old stats for the Galactic Civil War-and-beyond ships give their speeds as, but have bizarrely fewer ship-to-ship turbolasers and insanely more point-defense and warhead launcher weapons.

 

F_N: What sort of nonsense are you talking about???? The primary weapons of any ship has always been the biggest guns of any vessel, unless you need a dictionary to check what it means by "primary weapons" in which case, I'd start questioning your intelligence. Are you saying the movie is wrong, and you dare doubt what you saw in the damn movie? The Incredible Cross Sections itself was written under the authority of LFL and it even clearly stated the gun types. If Heavy turbolasers aren't primary weapons, but light turbolasers are, then your logic needs a serious reworking. Why, let's all think Emperor Palpatine never existed and that he was a figment of Vader's imagination, and have some booze while we are at it. WEG is wrong and shall always be wrong, and no amount of apologising for that wrongness or even any simplistitc attempt at rationalising that fundamental error will the fact that they were wrong and you sir, need to go get a degree in Engineering at the least.

A U-boat's deck gun isn't its main weapon. Nor are the turret guns on a Kirov-class cruiser's superstructure.

Similarly, the assumption that the biggest turrets we see are the biggest guns is flawed - it can't be assumed from the movie (especially since the structure of a Star Destroyer is based on the bows of a rl battleship, and the turret guns conform to secondary turrets); and even if ICS is correct to suggest they're heavy TLs (perhaps those books should be treated like WEG and retconned? ), it doesn't locate the other 48 for the Mk. I and, IIRC, says nothing about what the eight-barrelled replacements in barbettes on the Mk. II are.

If I've missed some evidence, please enlighten me.

The fact of the matter is that ISDs are just the average ship that was produced in great numbers so that the Empire could respond with a reasonable amount of firepower when the occasion required it.

Proof, please? Proof of the ISD's commonality doesn't constitute proof that it's a "small" type. The "average" battleship is still a battleship.

Else, a squadron of ships would be sent and if need be more power and dedicated ship killers would be sent.

"Dedicated ship killers" being canonically evidenced where...?

You don't send a WWII destroyer against a battleship do you? A ship of the line in fact was defined in the 18th/19th century as the 1st/2nd raters which incidentally carried 100 guns. But that term was disused after that in favour of more specific terms.

Rubbish. A ship of the line is any ship "fit to stand in the line of battle", first through fourth rate, including the very common third-rate 74-gun ship of the line.

The point of showing the existence of large private fleet was to justify the fact that the Empire could well finance such a huge fleet by virtue of corporate taxes and taxing the citizens to the death.

What underlies this reasoning? And what is its relevance?

I have no idea if the TF BB were upgraded in anyway, and that battle above Naboo is a fluke of nature of the highest level, and using it as an example just goes to show how desperate you are in finding "evidence" to support your flimsy claims.

No? While the TF BB and its Vulture droids would presumably have overwhelmed Bravo Flight in the end, they failed to do so immediately. Considering the odds, that suggests that their flak defences and droid-fighter swarms have serious inadequacies...

The idea that they're super-battleships superior to ISDs remains debatable. At best.

Not to mention it would take a few Venators to slice through the shields easily. It is enough to know the Mandators would have vapourised the ISD enough times over.

Do we know that, though?

Jello: thanks!

You do realise that's no help, right...

FTeik: Naboo got itself a planetary shield after the TF-invasion in TPM. Mentioned as such in AOTC:ICS.

1.) I'd think they might be inspired to do something like that. Given that Naboo is the seat of a senator (top 0.1%) even b

 

1.) I'd think they might be inspired to do something like that. Given that Naboo is the seat of a senator (top 0.1%) even beforehand, it's still not a safe assumption that the average representative of those million worlds is similar
2.) Shields didn't help Camaas or Emberlene, either...
2. Caamas was sabotaged, Emberlene, we have no idea.

The fact of the matter is that ISDs are just the average ship that was produced in great numbers so that the Empire could respond with a reasonable amount of firepower when the occasion required it.

Proof, please? Proof of the ISD's commonality doesn't constitute proof that it's a "small" type. The "average" battleship is still a battleship.

Proof? Then why was Death Squadron composed of a fleet with ISDs as Escorts, escorts that were even afraid of approaching Hoth for fear of getting whacked by the Ion cannon after seeing
Devastator getting whacked.

And perhaps you have proof in the movies that showed otherwise?

A U-boat's deck gun isn't its main weapon. Nor are the turret guns on a Kirov-class cruiser's superstructure.

Similarly, the assumption that the biggest turrets we see are the biggest guns is flawed - it can't be assumed from the movie (especially since the structure of a Star Destroyer is based on the bows of a rl battleship, and the turret guns conform to secondary turrets); and even if ICS is correct to suggest they're heavy TLs (perhaps those books should be treated like WEG and retconned? tongue ), it doesn't locate the other 48 for the Mk. I and, IIRC, says nothing about what the eight-barrelled replacements in barbettes on the Mk. II are.

Don't talk about UBoats with me or even modern warships since they are not of the same breed as Star Wars vessels and you know that. There are UBoats that used their deck cannons to sink ships especially when there aren't escort ships around, just for your info. Perhaps I'll refine the definition, main weapons used to create the most damage. In which case, the HTLs are the main weapons of destruction and the secondary weapons the light turbolaser batteries .The ISD models hasn't been changed and has never been changed since the filming of the movies. ICS never talked about ISDII much. And the fact it has 64 heavy turbolaser barrels further substantiates the point that WEG is wrong. Also, the ISD has light turbolaser batteries, and you don't see that mentioned by WEG do you?

Proof, please? Proof of the ISD's commonality doesn't constitute proof that it's a "small" type. The "average" battleship is still a battleship.
No, it proves it's average and small. You build lots of small vessels, but fewer larger warships. It went for WWII where there were lots of cruisers, but fewer battleships. Which is why the Empire builds Executors and other warships like the Allegiance and others to serve as commandships etc. and to destroy other enemy ships.

What underlies this reasoning? And what is its relevance?
Surely you know how govts work? They get more money from corporate taxes than taxes from the ordinary sheep. Even 10% tax on KDY's profits is surely enough to even build a fleet. The Empire won't even need to break the bank just to fund its extravagances.

 

Did you even read, what i wrote? Anotherwise you would have noticed me mentioning several other planets, that are far LESS important than Coruscant or Byss with full planetary shields. Perhaps you should also take a look into WEGs DarkEmpireSourceBook and look up the term "FortressWorld".

"Fortress" worlds were a phenemenon immediately before Dark Empire where planets were bled dry out of Imperial tyranny and paranoia. Yes, they were able to keep them up twenty-four seven and it probably was slowly killing them like Highlander 2.

Fingolfin

Proof? Then why was Death Squadron composed of a fleet with ISDs as Escorts, escorts that were even afraid of approaching Hoth for fear of getting whacked by the Ion cannon after seeing
Devastator getting whacked.

And perhaps you have proof in the movies that showed otherwise?


It's an ARMADA you frell! The flagship of the Empire's escort.

And they weren't afraid, they were in play when the Rebellion sucker punched them!

No, it proves it's average and small. You build lots of small vessels, but fewer larger warships. It went for WWII where there were lots of cruisers, but fewer battleships. Which is why the Empire builds Executors and other warships like the Allegiance and others to serve as commandships etc. and to destroy other enemy ships.

Specious.

The Empire built a tiny number of ISDs because they were the most powerful ships in existence.

To reiterate, the WEG material is established and cannot be argued with until it is DELIBETELY and clearly retconned.

Yes, in some cases this has been so (the SSD) but certainly not ALL OF it.

 

No, it proves it's average and small. You build lots of small vessels, but fewer larger warships. It went for WWII where there were lots of cruisers, but fewer battleships. Which is why the Empire builds Executors and other warships like the Allegiance and others to serve as commandships etc. and to destroy other enemy ships.


And so this makes Nebby-Bs, what, miniscule? Microscopic? The sheer number of Star Destroyers serves to defend the vastness of the Empire. One of them is enough to execute a Base Delta Zero to slag entire worlds' crusts. They are fast ships and powerful. Just play Rogue Leader or the X-wing series of video games. It's a vast fleet of powerful warships, not a vast fleet of little ships.

The point of the Executor in Empire Strikes Back was to say to the audience, "OK, these Imperial Star Destroyer ships are pretty big and pretty bad, eh? Well, just to show you how bad Vader really is, his personal ship is twelve times longer than them!"

To portray Executor as a GARGANTUAN starship, not to portray the ImpStars as small starships.

 

The Empire built a tiny number of ISDs because they were the most powerful ships in existence.

Nonsense. WEG has been corrected recently with ICS and other books, including Dark Empire which showed ships that were larger than ISDs and looked like enlarged versions. Just because WEG decided not to pay attention to them doesn't mean they never existed. WEG has lost credibility since it has to be subjected to so much retconning, and the 8klick long SSD nonsense is one of the most glaring examples of poor work.

And so this makes Nebby-Bs, what, miniscule? Microscopic? The sheer number of Star Destroyers serves to defend the vastness of the Empire. One of them is enough to execute a Base Delta Zero to slag entire worlds' crusts. They are fast ships and powerful. Just play Rogue Leader or the X-wing series of video games. It's a vast fleet of powerful warships, not a vast fleet of little ships.

Nebulon Bs are so scrawny it's questionable if they are of any worth. They are only 300m long, but the width is so small that right now, we think the ship was only capable of some laser cannons and maybe a turbolaser turret or two at most. She's no better than the Lancer frigate. As such, the Empire does have lots of support ships to support the ISD in her work, and then throw in the other heavier warships to keep the systems in line, like the Hapes Consortium.

 

Nonsense. WEG has been corrected recently with ICS and other books, including Dark Empire which showed ships that were larger than ISDs and looked like enlarged versions. Just because WEG decided not to pay attention to them doesn't mean they never existed. WEG has lost credibility since it has to be subjected to so much retconning, and the 8klick long SSD nonsense is one of the most glaring examples of poor work.

Dark Empire only showed Imperial Star Destroyers and the Emperor's insanely gradniose SSDs.

SSDs were so miniscule in number as to be largely inconsequential even if he was expanding their number.

 

The different types of Star Destroyers in Dark Empire are so easily explainable as simple artistic license (unless you think it's C-canon that the main characters are often green during the events of the reborn Emperor crisis).