The biggest fault in AOTC was...

Nobody cares whether you liked the movie or not, but you've just got to admit that the general public hasn't enjoyed the prequels as much as anticipated.

Yet it made $300+ million. Not bad for a movie that is the general public some how does not like. Which on less soemone has asked ever person who saw the movie it's really hard to tell.

And no going by the net is not a good idea because not ever one has the internet. Not ever one uses message boards. Some don't even care if there is a fan site or not.

On top of that again what does what a critic think or the general public a fault?

 

"Nobody cares whether you liked the movie or not..."



Well, I care. That's why I come to these boards. I enjoy sharing my enthusiasm with other fans of the series, even though we often see things differently.

 

We also know that no matter what...Luke cares.

 

yuk yuk

 

ani, haven't I said this enough times already? I don't care what films you like. I'm not berating you for liking anything or telling you not to like it. I'm telling zealots who insist that the OT was bashed as much by the critics as the PT was that they are absolutlely, uncontestedly wrong. There is not a shred of empirical evidnce to further this claim. It's nothing more than wishful thinking.

"Nobody cares whether you liked the movie or not, but you've just got to admit that the general public hasn't enjoyed the prequels as much as anticipated."

Exactly.

And please, nobody waste time with the "your expectations were unreasonable". They weren't. I expected something on par with the originals, nothing more. I got one decent film and one good film. Neither is bad by any means, they're just not as good as I wanted.

 

<img src=http://www1.theforce.net/jc/icons/returnofthejedi/wicket.gif> yub yub

 

but you've just got to admit that the general public hasn't enjoyed the prequels as much as anticipated

I haven't "got to admit" anything.

Heck, DM13's statistics might support the fact that only AOTC failed to live up to the standard of the rest.



And even if the general public didn't enjoy the prequels AS MUCH AS the originals, it doesn't mean they didn't ENJOY the prequels.

Rottentomatoes gives the prequels overall positive review rankings. Each one of them a contemporary review. Nothing earthshattering, but clearly fun was had.

Nowhere is it written that there can only be one thing in the world to enjoy.



Rick McCallum loves you!

 

I think you're way off Shelley.

First of all, Attack of the Clones's media blitz was still far above and beyond your average blockbuster media blitz. You still had the Time cover story, you still had it on the news just about everyday before the release, you still had all the merchandise. It was still the 2nd biggest media blitz next to Spiderman.

You've got to be kidding. It was nowhere near the media blitz that Spiderman had. Much of the publicity you spoke of was tempered with little, and not-so-little, swipes at TPM, saying that Lucas had to "win back" the fans that fled to "Matrix" or LOTR, and unsubtle implications that SW was dying. The media trumpeted stories such as, "Ewan McGregor disses Star Wars," and was beside itself with glee in reporting the vicious swipes critics took at it. Newspapers put out editorials denouncing the prequels, and Lucas.

Secondly, Attack of the Clones is hardly "dark". It still has the space battles, it still has the lightsaber fights, it still has the lame jokes, at the heart of it, it's still a FAMILY movie. Although I can see where maybe some of the tone can account for a little bit of the box office drop.

The brutal death of Anakin's mother wasn't dark? The Tusken slaughter wasn't dark? The overall somber tone wasn't dark? The arena scene, which had several monsters scary enough to make small children cry, wasn't dark?

Thirdly, bootlegging? When the original Star Wars movie came out movie attendance was hovering around 1 billion, now it's almost twice that. So bootlegging is irrelevant.

Not really. Bootlegging makes it possible to view a movie for free in a far higher quality format than ever before.

Fourthly, you have to take in account public reaction to the previous movie.

I do. It was positive.

Again, look at the Matrix. It's OBVIOUS that Matrix: Revolutions had a disappointing box office because of Matrix: Reloaded. Reloaded was bashed by critics, fans, and casual movie-goers alike. On the flip side, look at Lord of the Rings, it was praised by critics and movie-goers, and box office results have grown since Fellowship of the Ring. Even despite The Two Towers being "dark".

And which had the added benefit of a nonstop momentum (one movie per year, with multiple DVD releases on the interim), a press which fell all over itself to praise the movies before they were even released and which shamelessly used them as bludgeons against SW, making sure to inform LOTR fans how much better their series was, while telling SW fans, whom they described as stubbornly hanging on to a series even they know is subpar, to leave for "series with real passion," such as LOTR.

Nobody cares whether you liked the movie or not,

And I said that they should care...where?

but you've just got to admit that the general public hasn't enjoyed the prequels as much as anticipated.

If YOU didn't enjoy them as much as YOU anticipated, fine, but please don't tell me I "have to admit" what is only your opinion.

In any case, Lucas "anticipated" as far back as the early 80s that people wouldn't enjoy Eps 1-3 as much as the OT.

 

Hypothetically speaking, if the OT eventually comes off slightly better than the PT, all the better.



When you're watching them in order, the second act tops the first, as it should.


Hypothetically speaking.

 

I think the biggest faults were leaving out these scenes:

Beru & Padme in the kitchen.
[image=http://www.sgtfretsurfer.com/Grilled-Sarlacc/s/i/kitchen1.jpg]

The Lars wave goodbye but wish Anakin had stayed with his new family instead of rushing off to follow Obi-Wan on some crusade.
[image=http://www.sgtfretsurfer.com/Grilled-Sarlacc/s/i/lars.jpg]

Seeing the hangar with multiple Jedi Starfighters letting us know there is many of them, not just one belonging to Obi-Wan.
[image=http://www.sgtfretsurfer.com/Grilled-Sarlacc/s/i/915.jpg]

SO Mace would have more character development and stand out more without Yoda all the time, using this scene ...
[image=http://www.sgtfretsurfer.com/Grilled-Sarlacc/s/i/landing.jpg]

Instead of this scene...
[image=http://www.sgtfretsurfer.com/Grilled-Sarlacc/s/i/g82.jpg]

Obi-Wan doing more spy-work before stumbling upon Dooku and the droid factory so easily.
[image=http://www.sgtfretsurfer.com/Grilled-Sarlacc/s/i/screen128.jpg]

Clones on speeders. Nuff said.
[image=http://www.sgtfretsurfer.com/Grilled-Sarlacc/s/i/bikes.jpg]

Padme waking Anakin from another nightmare.
[image=http://www.sgtfretsurfer.com/Grilled-Sarlacc/s/i/wake.jpg] [image=http://www.sgtfretsurfer.com/Grilled-Sarlacc/s/i/w1.jpg]

Sola messing with Padme's head, getting her to open up and to realize she does has feelings under all that regal upbringing and that after always doing things for others, finally doing something for one's self is not selfish.
[image=http://www.sgtfretsurfer.com/Grilled-Sarlacc/s/i/u36.jpg] [image=http://www.sgtfretsurfer.com/Grilled-Sarlacc/s/i/u42.jpg]

Anakin promising to protect Padme and admitting she really is in danger, as her parents had feared.
[image=http://www.sgtfretsurfer.com/Grilled-Sarlacc/s/i/anakinruwee.jpg]

 

Agreed, Grilled.

 

Clones on speeders. I didn't miss them until you pointed it out.


Rats!



Edit: Thanks for the pics, GS.

 

Shelley, today's bootlegging is not of a significantly higher quality than it was, say, ten years ago. With the exception of films in November and December (because it's award season), screeners don't come out until months after a films release, long past the point where it has any more real money to earn in theaters. The pirated copies that come out during the theatrical ones, the copies that would be the only ones to in theory deter people from going to the theater, are still the of the same terrible quality, shot by someone with a camcorder in their hand.

 

You've got to be kidding. It was nowhere near the media blitz that Spiderman had. Much of the publicity you spoke of was tempered with little, and not-so-little, swipes at TPM, saying that Lucas had to "win back" the fans that fled to "Matrix" or LOTR, and unsubtle implications that SW was dying. The media trumpeted stories such as, "Ewan McGregor disses Star Wars," and was beside itself with glee in reporting the vicious swipes critics took at it. Newspapers put out editorials denouncing the prequels, and Lucas.

Ha! You said that Star Wars didn't have much of a media blitz and you're wrong. You saying that negative publicity hurt AOTC is exactly what I've been saying. Why do you think there was such negative publicity Shelley? Think about it, it's because The Phantom Menace wasn't well received.

The brutal death of Anakin's mother wasn't dark? The Tusken slaughter wasn't dark? The overall somber tone wasn't dark? The arena scene, which had several monsters scary enough to make small children cry, wasn't dark?

I said there was a dark tone to it. But at the core of the movie, it's still a family movie. The movie being "dark" doesn't account for a drop of almost half the box office totals of TPM.

Not really. Bootlegging makes it possible to view a movie for free in a far higher quality format than ever before.

Ok for you to even argue this point just shows me that you'll blindy defend the prequels til the bitter end. Think about the logic, MORE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO THE MOVIES THAN EVER BEFORE. Almost double of what existed in 1977. Making bootlegging irrelevant to your argument. THINK ABOUT IT.

Fourthly, you have to take in account public reaction to the previous movie.

I do. It was positive.

Ok, most reviews I read were luke warm at best for The Phantom Menace. Hundreds of anti-TPM websites sprung up. There was a huge backlash towards the movie. Do you live in a bubble with the only link to the outside world being an internet connection? Because that's the only way I can see somebody denying the huge backlash that has existed towards TPM. I've heard "The biggest disappointment in film history" given more than once by critics and fans. And you just admitted earlier about the negative press.

And which had the added benefit of a nonstop momentum (one movie per year, with multiple DVD releases on the interim), a press which fell all over itself to praise the movies before they were even released and which shamelessly used them as bludgeons against SW, making sure to inform LOTR fans how much better their series was, while telling SW fans, whom they described as stubbornly hanging on to a series even they know is subpar, to leave for "series with real passion," such as LOTR.

Ugh... you just don't get it. Lord of the Rings were praised by the media because people overwhelmingly enjoyed the films! There's no trick to it, it's got nothing to do with momentum. If anything The Two Towers coming out 3 years later would have only built up anticipation towards the movie. I don't want you to think I'm just pointing out Lord of the Rings because I loved the films (I'm not trying to be biased like yourself). I did think Return of the King was disappointing. But facts are facts, Lord of the Rings' Box Office numbers continued to grow because of public opinion towards the movies. I just don't see how you can argue these points.

 

AdamBertocci: "And even if the general public didn't enjoy the prequels AS MUCH AS the originals, it doesn't mean they didn't ENJOY the prequels."



I think that's what often gets lost in these discussions.


To create five follow-up films, and to keep them as fresh and entertaining as the original, has got to be a difficult challenge.

 

I'm telling zealots who insist that the OT was bashed as much by the critics as the PT was that they are absolutlely, uncontestedly wrong. There is not a shred of empirical evidnce to further this claim.

What does it matter what the critic thought. How is that fault? And how is your right and ever one else is wrong? Know people need empitical evdince and critics, and box office and so on for a movie to be good.

Name me another group of movies that is past it's 5th film that makes the kind of money SW has?

Fridy the 13th? I don't think so.

The nightmare movies? Nope.

Star Trek? Not there ether.

007? Sure it has a lot of movies but none of them have ever really made the kidn of money the Star Wars has.

Star Wars the OT and PT is very well liked. Then any other movie series that is on it's 5th film our more. Look at the Hallewoon movies. The Pin Head movies and so on. Star Wars is the only set of movies that has gone past it's 5th movies and is able to draw in a lot of money each and ever time.

As nice as the Padme Family scene is it really does not push the story on. There are movies that I really like where I want the delelted scenes back in but when I look that those scenes taken out they really are not pushing the story a head.

it's because The Phantom Menace wasn't well received.

Then how did it make $400+ million? And don't say well it was the first SW movie to come out in almost 18 years. Because no other series movies that went on there 4th film has ever made the kind of money TPM did, same with AOTC.

 

A few observations:

Did we see the Tuskan slaughter?

Did we see anybody being cut in half by a lightsaber?

Was most of the violence in the movie stylized?

Saying AOTC was dark is untrue. I think it had a more rich color tone to the film which perhaps was dark, but the movie itself did not have a dark theme to it.

Like it or not anidanami, critics, Oscars and the things you hate or dislike all play a role in whether a film is judged as great or not. particularly through history.

No one is going to remember Twister, but they are sure going to remember Jurassic Park in terms of special effects.

I completely agree with some posters other comments that suggest that AOTC was not as well received because of critics comments, TPM, etc. Like it or not, if we dismiss the box office argument, we only have the review process to judge whether it lived up to expectation. I mean, if critics judged AOTC as better than TPM but not necessarily a great film then can they all be wrong? Can 67-70% of film critics have an axe to grind with George Lucas? To want to see him fail?

What does that say for LOTR? Why did they embrace that film? And please do not say double standard, that is not an argument.

 

I'm telling zealots who insist that the OT was bashed as much by the critics as the PT was that they are absolutlely, uncontestedly wrong. There is not a shred of empirical evidnce to further this claim.

There's plenty of evidence, whether you choose to dismiss it or not. And calling people "zealots" doesn't help your case.

TPM was not nearly as hated by critics as some like to insist. The OT was not nearly as praised by critics as some like to insist, and the reviews of the SEs don't count. The SEs came out after a very long passage of time, during which many critics reassessed their views, others had died or retired, with younger critics who grew up as fans of the OT taking their place.

AOTC is probably the most negatively reviewed of all the movies, and the gratuitous viciousness flung at it bespeaks of an agenda, not to mention, a party line being followed. Some of the reviews got so many details wrong that it was hard to believe that the critics even saw it.

it's because The Phantom Menace wasn't well received.

Evidence?

few observations:

Did we see the Tuskan slaughter?

Did we need to?

Did we see anybody being cut in half by a lightsaber?

What, Anakin getting his arm cut off and Obi Wan being stabbed with a lightsaber, which obviously caused him a great deal of pain, isn't enough for you?

Was most of the violence in the movie stylized?

Saying AOTC was dark is untrue. I think it had a more rich color tone to the film which perhaps was dark, but the movie itself did not have a dark theme to it.

A galaxy sliding from democracy to a dictatorship isn't dark enough for you? The movie literally starting with a bang isn't dark enough for you? Lots of death and destruction isn't dark enough for you?

 

It's not that there were as many people who complained about the classic trilogy as people who complained about the prequels. It's that the complaints that -were- made for both trilogies were identical.

* Bad Acting
* Bad Writing
* Focus on gee whiz effects at the expense of a well written story.

It's just that there are -more- people today who are not noticing the substance underneath that makes up for these various perceived shortcomings.

 

ani, I'm done with you. I've had almost all of the inanity I can take for one day, and I'd like to save some room for Shelley.

Shelley, I should be done with you too, but I'll go a little more because we haven't had a pleasant conversation in such a long time.

If there is plenty of evidence, post it. If critics have flip-flopped over the years on Star Wars, post which critics and their original and current contradictory reviews. Where is this evidence of which you speak? As you were so fond of saying, "post proof or retract".

If I may ask, why did you decide to leave/come back to begin with?

 

Oscars and the things you hate or dislike all play a role in whether a film is judged as great or not. particularly through history.

Can we not keep bring the Oscars into this. A movie get or not getting any Oscar does not show what it's faults are. Never has never will.

 

anidanami124, the scenes of Anakin and Padme at her family's home make the depth of their feelings more understandable.


They were significant enough to write and to film. The documentary states that Lucas was very reluctant to cut them, but did so to meet their target film length.

 

I honestly think this Oskar/BO debate is ridiculous

The Phantom Menace - 0 Oscars, 3 Nominations
Attack of the Clones - 0 Oscars, 1 Nomination

Star Wars: A New Hope - 7 Oscars, 10 Nominations (Best Picture)
The Empire Strikes Back - 2 Oscars, 4 Nominations
Return of the Jedi - 1 Oscar, 3 Nominations

So, how does it prove that the "sequels", ESB and ROTJ weren't bashed back then? As far as i'm concerned, their 2/4 and 1/3 is far closer to 0/3 and even 0/1 than to 7/10. So maybe they weren't bashed as much as the prequels, but they were certainly not as well received as ANH. In fact, the line isn't betwwen the OT and the PT but between ANH//ESB-ROTJ-TPM/AOTC. Same for the Box Office Gross:

Star Wars - $1,074,061,157

The Empire Strikes Back - $591,573,955

Return of the Jedi - $567,178,243

The Phantom Menace - $511,705,203

Attack of the Clones - $322,440,747

ANH>>ESB~ROTJ~TPM>AOTC

 

Did we see the Tuskan slaughter?

We don't need to see that.

Did we see anybody being cut in half by a lightsaber?

Was most of the violence in the movie stylized?

Dark movies don't need people being killed left and right for them to be dark.

What does that say for LOTR? Why did they embrace that film? And please do not say double standard, that is not an argument.

I don't really care because I enjoy both SW and LOTR. I don't like put LOTR and SW up against each because I enjoy both.

 

Oscars and the things you hate or dislike all play a role in whether a film is judged as great or not. particularly through history.

Then how do you account for so many Best Picture winners being utterly and completely forgotten, while non-Best Picture winners like...well, like SW, are remembered and cherished?

What does that say for LOTR? Why did they embrace that film?

For the same reason they've embraced the SW movies -- all of them.

And please do not say double standard, that is not an argument.

No, the double standards are in the arguments of people who feel compelled to come to a SW message board and attempt to convince fans that SW sucks and has been replaced by some other series.