RPR Archive Tips/Advice Articles: Space Battles

Please use this thread to discuss all aspects of space battles! This will probably end up being Star Wars-specific, but non-Star Wars information is welcome, provided it is labeled as such.

 

Here are some tips from the old "Training Grounds and Informational Thread" to start us off!

---

[b]SPACE BATTLES[/b]
[ul][li]Space Battles[/li]
[li]Responses to Some Questions[/li][/ul]
[hr]
[i][b][color=royalblue]Space Battles, by [link=http://boards.theforce.net/pm_send.asp?usr=296995]GrandAdmiralJello[/link][/i][/b][/color]

Let's start simply, and build our way up. I'll post something new, and I'd like for my students to give me some input. Just tell me if you understand--and if you really understand, post an example to show off your newfound understanding. If you don't--then that's not a problem, you can ask me a question and I'll try to clear things up for you. Once a majority of my students get it, I'll move on to something new... but I will always answer older questions.

Once I feel I've covered everything, I will use my posts and answers to your questions to come up with a little FAQ/Guide to space battling. I figure it's better to try this out with a live audience so I can make a well-rounded guide when the time comes.

So....

I. The Purpose of Space battling:
a. To achieve dominance on the battlefield.

Simple, right? Whatever the battle, you want to achieve dominance. It doesn't matter what it is... it could be a tactical strike on some fleet, it could be a plantetary conquest where you want to destroy/disable the defenses, or it can be planetary defense where you wish to drive off the attackers.

It's important to keep this simple goal in mind. Don't think about being fancy or about anything else. Just think first and foremost about how to accomplish this overall goal. Don't get distracted by the smaller picture--losing a small ship. Don't get distracted by the bigger picture--landing troops. Keep this simple goal in mind. No matter what the battle, you want to get dominance.

Mindset is the key. Once you've thought up several ways to achieve dominance(we'll get to thinking/tactics later), then you can pick ones which suit the larger and small picture. But first, just keep your bigger goal in mind.

Makes sense?
[hr]
[b][color=royalblue]Responses to Some Questions, by [link=http://boards.theforce.net/pm_send.asp?usr=296995]GrandAdmiralJello[/link][/b][/color]
[i][blockquote]-How can one find out how all of the ships actually compare to each other in strategic value, and what are some good methods to avoid confusion between players?
[/i][/blockquote]

Generally, online databases such as http://galacticempiredatabank.com/ may be used. I'd hesitate using most online sources, since they tend to use fan-based data. If legitimate sites/sourcebooks can be used, then it's possible to learn statistics and weapons counts.

As for strategic value, that's just something each commander will have to determine on their own. Value depends on conditions, objectives, and even the overall plan a commander has. The smallest ship in a fleet may possibly become the most valuable. This skill is an essential one, and perhaps one of the most critical to success in space.

[i][blockquote]-How does one accurately role-play the limits of a commander's leadership skills and deftness in communication of orders? [/i][/blockquote]

That depends on the character. No leader is perfect.

As an expert in space combat, my main characters tend to be efficient and experienced. However, I'm still quite capable of making sloppier characters.

It's the same as roleplaying a character who is dumber than the average person. It's a question of writing and RPing skills. Think of it like writing a book or acting a character who might not be as skilled as is ideal. Base it on the individual character's skills.

[i][blockquote]How does technology limit correspondence between interstellar vessels?[/i][/blockquote]

Shields cut off long range communications. Within a battle, though, all ships in the same system may still be contacted.

Jamming, of course, disrupts all communications in the area unless it is somehow defeated.

[i][blockquote]When should morale start to play an issue, and whe

 

Based on Empire at War and Star Trek Armada, it seems inaccurate to state that all nebulae actually damage ship equipment. The Nebulae in EaW seem to merely cloud long-range sensors and hinder "special abilities" (not sure how that would translate into RPing, but seems pertinent to mention). In Star Trek Armada II, there are a variety of Nebulae ranging from the deadly (Yellow: which slowly kill ship crews, and red which cause electrical disturbance and hull damage) to the annoying (like blue which, if used defensively can cause your enemy to limp into a trap blind)

 

Maybe "damage" sensors isn't quite exact, but it's close. If you have a large nebula between you and an enemy, your sensors would have difficulty locating them. Considering how large nebulae can be, they can be a very effective means of hiding from a superior enemy or planning a surprise attack.

Of course, for the purpose of some RPGs, nebulae could be given certain destructive characteristics, a la the ST: Armada ones.

~ DS5

 

Maybe you could post some more tips, Jello...

 

Just be careful before you get into controlling an entire squad of fighters. It can be more of a pain doing multiple posts for a squad of more than four characters than it is RP-ing as the bridge of a Star Destroyer.

In my experience, it can pall quickly.

 

Of course, this is coming from the King of Over-Extension (character wise)

Seriously, the only person I know that can start with 3 extra NPC's in his opening post...and a month later have entire what is equivalent to the population of a mid-sized cantina under his control...stretched across the galaxy I might add...

But he's frelling good at it.

 

Leaving aside the tactical considerations and turning to a 'GM Management' focus, it sometimes is useful in big space battles (or even in small ones) to keep an out-of-character running tally of the number and condition of ships and fighters alongside the IC posts.

The idea is that it helps people assess their character's situation and roleplay accordingly -- details can sometimes be lost to players among all that wonderful description. It also refocuses the GM's mind as to who is where at the end of a long and descriptive post: you don't want to have missed a couple of PCs somewhere in the heat of battle!

Let me draw an example from the Integrated Balance of Power, using one of my own characters. As a background, my character, Dalronthorn Shichumai, is the commander of a B-Wing squadron engaged in a battle with a number of Z-95s and two Corellian Corvettes. The B-Wing squadron is attempting to protect a group of four freighters heading for Kashyyyk. Various PCs have chimed in as members of the squadron.

The IC posting went like this:

Warhammer Squadron

Deep Space, Kashyyyk system

The darkness of space didn't stay that way for long. Red and green fire flared across the inkblack of the stars as Warhammer Squadron screamed to the aid of the Carthalis Freighter group. Whoever was commanding the pirate force seemed to weigh up the situation fairly rapidly, and the Z-95 fighters turned from their strafing role against the freighters to engage the B-Wings directly.

Dalronthorn Shichumai's shield trio roared towards the nearest Corvette. The commander snapped a targeting laser onto the capital ship. Sweat trickled down his brow inside the helmet. Dangerous--he was basically advertising to every ship in the area he was planning on hitting the Corvette first. And the pirates picked up on it very quickly. Six Z-95 fighters broke from the main group and screamed down on his shield trio.

Dalronthorn blinked as blue and red fire poured towards the Corvette--Zahndros Kadehrn, opening fire on one of its turbolaser turrets. It seemed to have results. The Corvette's dorsal area sparked with actinic lightning and red of flame, and its top turret went out. At least that side of the Corvette couldn't protect itself.

However, the maneuver left Audri with the not inconsiderable task of trying to handle six nimble fighters alone. She got three proton torpedoes away, fingers flying over the console, and a couple of shots with lasers, but the targeting computer was having trouble holding so many targets. One of the Z-95s blew apart in a flower of red and yellow light.

The other five hailed fire down on Dalronthorn's shield trio. Warhammer Two dodged at the last moment, but Zahndros' rear shields went out; another hit from the rear and they'd start taking the B-Wing's superstructure, though he hadn't lost weaponry or power.

Audri took harder damage; some of the shots penetrated through the forward shields and blasted damage into the ion cannon power router; she wouldn't be able to fire ion cannons from this point onward.

Dalronthorn's shields screamed, and one lucky shot, guided by his targeting of the Corvette system, shuddered his vessel. The keening of his damage displays indicated the bad news; they'd taken out the proton torpedo launcher...but not before he'd got six proton torpedoes away in a fast volley.

The blue matter/energy missiles streaked to their target. At this range, with the assistance of the targeting laser, they had no chance of missing. All six impacted heavy on the damaged Corvette's shields, and the capital ship shuddered with explosions up and down her superstructure. She wasn't down yet, but Dalronthorn's wingmates had done what they needed to for the moment. Now they had to stay alive.

Linon 'Risky' Rishter's gambit, meanwhile, had worked. Perhaps too well. His fusillade of fire had poured into the closest grouping of enemy fighters, and even taken out one Z-95 to boot, but with

 

With a few gming years under my belt and several space-battles behind me, I guess this is the most tricky part of every game.

RPing is mostly about drama. That´s why I think the really best way to describe a StarWars space-battle is the way it is described in the movies. From the sight of a fighter-cockpit. With limited abilities to influence it. It should capture the atmosphere of the movies, be thrilling and threatening. And . . . the GM should have decided on the winner. Everything else leads to absolute "Pseudo-competition".

What I mean by that are the three great problems of tactical fighting in RP:

1. The Winner - The players attracted to this sort of scene, taking control over a whole fleet of ships will wish to win this game. They are very subjective in their fews and they will think the enemy, everytime he gains ground, has done something impossible. There are no fixed rules in Star Wars, with thousands of books and sources to quote you can argue everything. Actually, I found three sources, where Capital Ships are taken out by a single fighter. So they start arguing and before you really start to care every post has a huge OOC: and a little IC: in between. Nobody accepts his loss. Especially because of Point 2.

2. Bad tactics, that are thought to be brilliant - Most player think of something. They see the Star Wars universe in a certain way and to tell the truth . . . most RPers think themselves to be skilled tacticians. Most are not. They simply converse the game into their idea of a good strategy. So the other players think . . . they are superoior in their tactics, for the opponents move was obviously senseless. You see, wherre this ends? Every player is brilliant.

Actually, there is a good reason, why battleships in real-life don´t get close to each other. The whole idea of ship-to-ship combat in SW is for the sake of dramaturgy. The right tactic is always keeping distance and shoot torpedos. Probably even fighters. That has been known in the real word since Skagerrac (or whatever it is called in english)

3. The lack of thrill - Nobody outside the two strategists get´s anything out of this. Reading the strange tactical dossiers of other players is boring. Most of the times you do not agree with everything they write. And most players get as close to god-modiing as possible, when they describe. It is actually not to players to decide what ships can do. It is gm-work. Or has there ever been a game where "gm-word is the word of god" hasn´t been in effect?

It is also unrealistic, for the command-crew of a fleet usually has between 40 and 200 members. The Admiral is doing very little, once the battle has begun.

Player participating in the battel are most of the ties left out and have to scope with the fact that hours are skipped, while they are doing a few maneauvers with their fighter.



That is why I always handled space-battles like the movies did. A pilot in the hell-fire of galactic war. Ships exploding and cries for help from the com-system. While the point emerges, where probably one well-placed shot could safe the day.

My two cents on this topic. Great there is a forum were we can actually discuss something like this.

 

Time for the annual-ish bump!

For the knowledge, interest, and opportunity for contribution of this new group of players.

-I_H

 

RPing any kind of fleet battle can be difficult, since the fleet is supposed to in the command of a trained Admiral with intimate knowledge of strategy. Yet that Admiral is only as experienced as you are, the one writing for him. The best way to get around it is to educate yourself and talk to others seeking advice. Wikipedia is a good place to look for basic strategy and maneuvers. Also, getting to know your ship's capabilities, and becoming an expert on your own ships, helps a lot.

 

What I would like is for someone more knowledgeable than me, to do comparison stats between ship weapons and shields.

My sources, which tend to post SBD values for shields, and massive wattage or kilotons for guns, are not too helpful.

The 'Star Wars Incredible Cross Sections', is much better on linear speed though, eg. you know that a Firespray like Slave One, with a max speed of 1000kph, is no way going to outrun a pair of ARC-170s at 44,000kph!

 

I think the roleplaying books do a pretty good job in making them comparable . . .

 

Are you able to offer an example?

Edit: By which I mean, two vessels or vehicles, etc. in a roleplaying book, where their stats allowed you to know how they compared, specifically, how much damage one could do to the other, seeing as this is Space Battles.

 

Sure, give me two ships. Common ships from Star Wars.

 

I will think about a pairing.

Are the roleplaying guides you are referring to, Wizards of the Coast, which I have never encountered; or West End Games, of which I do have some sourcebooks?

 

I would have used Saga, now. WEG had good game-mechanics when it came to ships, but is in some parts not canon anymore. SSD length and all that. Saga-rules are top of the canon. There are also the 2nd edition books, but I never saw their stats in action, I think.

 

Is Saga a third roleplaying licensee? Not heard of them, though I could try Amazon if this works out.

My specific pairing, that I have to RP, is an Acclamator-I vs a Golan II Space Defense Platform.

Obviously, the Acclamator is fragged, but I would like to get a clue as to how I can play it.

 

Saga is the newest incarantion of Wizards rules. A glorifed term for 3rd edition, I guess. They have changed a lot. And I think the two ships are both published in it. As they are in the 2nd Edition. But I´ll leave it to SirakRomar to answer the question. Don´t have the book right here anyway . . .

 

Some time ago, I stumbled across Wizard starship stats, and saved the page. It covers one of the two assets that I need to choreograph a barney between.

I am afraid that beyond the normal English language information, such as number of crew, and number of turbolasers, it really does not mean much to me.

Incidentally, what is the difference between a turbolaser, and a turbolaser battery?

Golan II Space Defense Spacegun
Class: Station; Cost: 87.02 mCr; Size: Colossal (Large space station, 2,158m length); Initiative: -8; Crew: 699 (Normal +2); Passengers: 80 (troops); Cargo Capacity: 10,000 Metric tons; Consumables: 3 Months; Maximum Speed: Docking (0 squares/action); Maneuvers: -6 (-8 size, +2 crew); Defense: 2 (-8 size); Hull Points: 800 (DR 56).
Weapon: Turbolaser [Medium] (35); Fire Arc: Turret; Attack Bonus: -2 (-8 size, +2 crew, +4 fire control); Damage: 5d10x3; Range Modifiers: PB +0, S -2, M -4, L -6.
Weapon: Proton Torpedo Launcher (10); Fire Arc: Turret; Attack Bonus: -2 (-8 size, +2 crew, +4 fire control); Damage: 9d10x2; Range Modifiers: PB +0, S/M/L N/A.
Weapon: Tractor Beam Projector (8); Fire Arc: Turret; Attack Bonus: +2 (-8 size, +2 crew, +8 fire control); Damage: Special; Range Modifiers: PB +0, S -2, M/L N/A.



In the absence of an Acclamator, here are the Wizard stats for a Corporate Sector warship:

Invincible-class Heavy Cruiser
Class: Capital Ship; Cost: Not available for sale (Approx. 44.66 mCr); Size: Colossal (2,011m length); Initiative: -8; Crew: 23,014 (Normal +2); Passengers: 6,000; Cargo Capacity: 700 Metric tons; Consumables: 1 Year; Hyperdrive: x4 (backup x20); Maximum Speed: Cruising (1 squares/action); Maneuvers: -6 (-8 size, +2 crew); Defense: 2 (-8 size); Hull Points: 720 (DR 50).
Weapon: Turbolaser Cannon [Double] (14); Fire Arc: 4 Front, 4 Left, 2 Back, 4 Right; Attack Bonus: -1 or -5/-5 (-8 size, +2 or -2/-2 crew, +5 fire control); Damage: 5d10; Range Modifiers: PB +0, S -2, M -4, L -6.
Weapon: Laser Cannon [Quad] (30); Fire Arc: 7 Front, 10 Left, 3 Back, 10 Right; Attack Bonus: -2 or -8/-8/-8 (-8 size, +2 or -4/-4/-4 crew, +4 fire control); Damage: 6d10; Range Modifiers: PB +0, S -2, M/L N/A.
Weapon: Tractor Beam Projector (6); Fire Arc: 2 Front, 2 Left, 2 Right; Attack Bonus: -2 (-8 size, +2 crew, +4 fire control); Damage: Special; Range Modifiers: PB +0, S -2, M/L N/A.
Weapon: Concussion Missile Launcher (6); Fire Arc: 2 Front, 2 Left, 2 Right; Attack Bonus: +10 (ordinary); Damage: 8d10x2


So, righty-ho, where do I go from here? I find available vessel stats very good as standalone sub-articles, but then they are less than helpful when you compare the two.

Perhaps I don?t speak the lingo, cos? this looks a bit techy.

* * * *

I did look online just now, trying to find WOTC or Saga stats for an Acclamator, and while I did not find any, I did find enough to know how to play it (thanks to, AllExperts.com). Just as soon as I find out if it is supposed to be a model I or II.

The Acclamators, due to their design as a troop transport meant to land on a planet's surface, had a lighter weapon system than most of the Separatist starships and Republic cruisers to come. This does not mean the Acclamator lacks defenses: the primary weapons of an Acclamator are 12 quad turbolaser turrets that are removable and are easy to place on various locations on the ship. For support, the Acclamator also has 24 laser cannons mounted on the ship's perimeter to scatter attacking starfighters or pirates. For planetary bombardments, the Acclamator also has 4 heavy missile/proton torpedo launchers. These weapons are more then enough to destroy smaller frigates or starfighters, and before landing on a planet, Acclamators are often used to attack and destroy fleeing freighters and ships. The planetary focus of the Acclamator greatly affected its design: the turbolasers are not as accurate as the weapons on most other ships, and the laser cannons, while great for destroying starfighters, are too weak to seriously damage capital ships. Both the missile launchers and the turbola

 

Okay, needs some time I don´t have right now. I also think the Invincible-class is a little . . . to good when one compares old WEG stats of the ship. The Accumulator is not that good . . . got it´s stats but I would have to write copy them here from my book so . . .

If you want to have an in depth look, I´ll give it to you later. Here a rough idea about how it would work . . .

Both your examples lack shields, which is surprising. Maybe your source is the problem there.

Situation A - The Invincible´s attack capability

Range and Firecontrol shouldn´t be a problem. Golan´s are sitting ducks. I´ll ignore the fire-arcs for simplicity. It comes down to this.

Weapon: Turbolaser Cannon [Double] (14) Damage: 5d10
Weapon: Laser Cannon [Quad] Damage: 6d10
Concussion Missile Launcher (6) Damage: 8d10x2

Golan II = Hull Points: 800 (DR 56)

DR is damage reduction. Therefore you need to do more damage than 56 to do one point of structure damage. It represents the armor. You need to do half the structure-points damage until it´s unoperational so 400 points until you won.

5D10 Turbolaser make a max damage of 50. Can never breach the armor of the Golan which is 56. 6D10, max 60. A lucky shot can do very minor damage to the Golan. 8d10x2 Missles . . . they can do damage to the Golan, actually. It got only six tubes, though. So hardly enough to destroy it.

All in all the Invincible-Class has no chance of doing any real harm to the Golan. Quick glance at the Golan and the Invincible stats


Invincible Hull Points: 720 (DR 50)

Golan Weapons

Turbolaser 5d10x3
Proton Torps 9d10x2

The torpedos would pretty much be the Invincibles doom. Also it can take surprising bad punishment before it´s destroyed, I must say . . .

 

Re. your sig - your English is great.

Now, that was an eye-opener, Sirak', great job. Thank you for doing this.

With the explanation of the damage reduction mechanics, and what the 6d10 actually means, that takes me closer to the answers that I need.

Both your examples lack shields, which is surprising. Maybe your source is the problem there.

Yeah, that is what I was saying.

Star Wars wiki offers a shield value of 6400 SBD and a hull rating of 2288 RU for the Golan II, which does not show what you would need to do to penetrate them, so is useless for one-on-one RP, and in any case, notes that these are games mechanics used exclusively for X-Wing video games!


Your explanation is way better, so I agree that Saga/WOTC at least, could be good for comparative matching.

I found two Acclamator stats this morning, but I am unsure as to their validity/value, as the green (I like my colours) one has techy stuff that looks a bit different to the above; and the brown one was from a site where the contributors were amending info' on some ships, but first, three questions:

Weapon: Turbolaser Cannon [Double] (14) Damage: 5d10
Does the 50 points of damage produced, refer to one turbolaser at a time, or all 14 fired at once?

When you say this could never penetrate the hull because of the DR damage reduction, is there no accumulative effect?Or literally, you could fire these things till the cows come home, and they would not get through?

If 5d10 equals 50, does 5d10x3 equal 150?

Located Acclamator data


Craft: Rothana Heavy Engineering Acclamator-class Assualt Ship
Type: Assault Capital Ship
Scale: Capital
Length: 752 meters
Skill: Capital Ship piloting: Acclamator-class
Crew: 700
Crew Skill: Astrogation 3D, Capital Ship gunnery 3D+2, Capital Ship piloting 3D+1, Capital Ship shields 3D+2, sensors 3D
Passengers: 16,000 (clonetroopers)
Cargo Capacity: 2,000 metric tons
Consumables: 20 days
Hyperdrive Multiplier: x2
Hyperdrive Backup: x10
Nav Computer: Yes
Maneuverability: 1D
Space: 8
Hull: 3D+1
Shields: 2D+2Sensors:
Passive: 35/1D
Scan: 70/2D
Search: 120/3D
Focus: 5/4D
Weapons:
12 Turbo Quadlasers
Fire Arc: 6 front/left, 6 front/right
Crew: 2
Skill: Capital Ship gunnery
Fire Control: 2D
Space Range: 3-10/20/40
Atmosphere Range: 300-1/2/4 km
Damage: 6D
4 Assault Concussion Missile Tubes (20 missiles each)
Fire Arc: Front
Crew: 2
Skill: Capital Ship gunnery
Fire Control: 3D+1
Space Range: 3-15/35/75
Atmosphere Range: 6-30/70/150km
Damage: 9D
24 Point Laser Cannons
Fire Arc: 8 Front, 8 right, 8 left
Scale: Stafighter
Crew: 2
Fire Control: 1D+1
Space Range: 1-3/5/10
Atmosphere Range: 100-300/500/1km
Damage: 2D


/////////////////////////////////

WIZARDS COMMUNITY - Saga Edition Starship stats and conversions


Rothana Heavy Engineering Acclamator-class Assault Ship - CL 18
Colossal (cruiser) capital ship
Init -1; Senses Perception +6
===
Defense Ref 14 (flat-footed 11) Fort 48; +11 armor
hp 960; DR 20; SR 120; Threshold 248
Speed fly 5 squares (starship scale)
Ranged 2 turbolaser batteries +15* (see below) and
6 point-defense laser cannon batteries +11 (see below) and
4 assault concussion missiles +5* (see below)
Fighting Space 1 square (starship scale); Cover total
Base Atk +2; Grp +70
===
Abilities Str 86, Dex 16, Con ?, Int 16
Skills Initiative -1, Mechanics +6, Perception +6, Pilot -1, Use Computer +6
===
Crew 700 (skilled); Passengers 16,000
Cargo 2,000 tons; Consumables 20 days; Carried Craft 48 AT-TE walkers, 80 LAAT gunships, 320 speeder bikes, 36 SPHA walkers
Payload 80 proton torpedoes
Hyperdrive x2 (backup x10), nav computer
Availability Military; Cost not available for sale
*apply a -20 penalty on attacks against targets smaller than Colossal size

turbolaser b