AOTC/LOTRTT Compare

ok I was just watching The Two Towers and I noticed that in the Battle for Helms Deep that the Elves get spanked kind of like the Jedi did in AOTC on Geonosis. I The Image of the Jedi and the Elves was competely destroyed in these movies. I know it sounds crazy but think about it. The worst of the worst happened to both of these powerful groups. .... ANy thoughts

 

Iceman,
I think there is a good comparison here. The elves and jedi both had skill beyond most humans/other humans in terms of their awareness and performance, and they were both decimated. I don't see what happened to either of them as being the worst of the worst, or that their image was destroyed. They all chose to fight to protect those who were dear to them even though they were outnumbered by many. They didn't have a choice whether to win (they won both battles by holding out long enough for reinforcements to arrive) or lose, they had the choice to stand and defend or to run away. The orcs and battle droids were obviously completely out matched, though the super battle droids, droidekas, and uruk-hai could be successful against them when they had the advantage of surprise (like with Coleman Trebor) or number. Without those advantages, it would be at best a standoff (as it was in Episode 1).

 

Well, although there is a similarity between the two events, I have to point out one major difference. The elves came to Helm's Deep, knowing they were going to get whooped, but they came to help the population of Edoras and the rest of Rohan. As for the Jedi, they came under the same conditions except they came to help olny one person, which I up to this day have a hard time accepting.

But an interesting point is that in both movies, just before the good guys are totally exterminated, a large force literally comes down and kicks the bad guys' butts.

But in general, TTT was a way better movie than AOTC...because for one thing: IT MAKES SENSE!

BTW, THE E3 TRAILER ROCKS!

 

They were willing to die to protect/save one of their own

What's so hard to understand about that?

- O_F

 

"They were willing to die to protect/save one of their own. What's so hard to understand about that?"

We went through this many times before. Killing hundreds of Jedi to protect just one is kinda stupid, and doesn't really make sense to me. The elves on the other hand were giving their lives for the whole population of Rohan which is a much more just cause in my opinion.
What would have made more sense in AOTC would have been if only 2 or 3 Jedi were dispatched to save Obi-Wan...not 200.

 

What would have made more sense in AOTC would have been if only 2 or 3 Jedi were dispatched to save Obi-Wan...not 200.

1) Count Dooku is there, they know this.
2) Jango Fett is there, they know this.
3) The Trade Federation is there, they know this.
4) Obi-Wans fate, they don't know this.

They took as many as possible because they had to, they had no idea what they were facing. If they had sent 2/3 Jedi then they would've been slaughtered in an instant, had they sent no Jedi - then Obi Wan (and Padme/Anakin) would've been slaughtered.

Instead - as many Jedi as possible went and, while the losses were heavy, Jedi survived.

Those Jedi that were killed died protecting/saving those who did survive, that sacrifice makes perfect sense. The Jedi Order is based on relying on bonds, imagine if someone who you've bonded with was in such a position - would you do all that was possible to try and save that person, or would you leave him to a lesser certain fate just so those who aren't in immediate danger are "safe".

- O_F

 

But in general, TTT is a way better movie than AOTC...because for one thing: IT MAKES SENSE!

I'll get flamed for this, but for me, "The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers", while visually impressive, was narratively, a long drive to a short day at the beach. "Clones" makes sense, but is somewhat steeped in nebulous, labyrinthine plot revolutions, which are either more or less complicated than they appear, depending upon the viewer. Both films make approximately the same amount of sense because, after all, they are both inherently fantastical, and require a suspension of disbelief.

As for the Jedi, they came under the same conditions except they came to help olny one person, which I up to this day have a hard time accepting.

Not so. The Jedi also arrived on Geonosis to stop Dooku and his separatist/droid army. While it was important to save Obi-Wan, his personal jeopardy was not the impetus for the Jedi assault.

I am in the minority, but I believe "The Two Towers" to be one of the most vastly overpraised films of the past ten years - it lacks urgency, sweep, focus, and most importantly, an underlying comprehension of the majesty of Tolkien's work. This is a story about the Hobbits, and yet they are sidelined while we get to watch significantly less interesting characters such as Aragorn and Legolas dance around in underwhelming and scantily realized subplots which include a woefully unconvincing love triangle between Liv Tyler, Viggo Mortensen, and Mirando Otto. Jackson has transformed a mystical and enchanting story about chatty little creatures called Hobbits into a violent, limb-slicing epic which centers around proto-Nordic supermen, and as a result, contains a distinct lack of whimsy.

 

Can we try to keep this thread on its original topic? Generally we don't allow this type of thread to stay open because they always turn into a "LOTR sucks!" "No, AOTC sucks!" argument thread.

The author's intent here was to compare the Helm's Deep Elves with the Jedi in the Geonosisian arena. Please keep all comments that don't concern themselves with either party out of this thread. Thank you.



Mace Windy,
too windy for spoilers!

 

Your points may or may not be valid, but please see my post directly above yours. ^

 

Lord of the Clones!!!

 

Count Dooku looks like he could be related to Saromon.

 

The elves at Helm's Deep were slaughtered because :: Well, they're Sylvan elves--I mean, if it were a bunch of Sindarin or Quendi--things would have turned out differently.
Also--I think it brings a harsh reality that these forces, who are regarded as being immortal, whether literally or "Nobody can kill a Jedi!" can indeed die, as they did--the Clone Arena showed to me the tragedy of the loss of nobility in war. A group of Jedi Knights, who spend the better parts of their lives training are decimated by machines that can't even think for themselves. The same with Orcs...those elves had been around probably since the Second Age or earlier--and they were defeated by mindless, blood-thirsty killing machines in droves that are probably two-weeks out of the mud-pit.
Does this make them appear weak? No, but it certainly brings the reality to people that these beings are not Gods.

 

There are some similarities, but I think both films are unique in their own way in the mentioned fighting scenes.

 

"If they had sent 2/3 Jedi then they would've been slaughtered in an instant"

There's something called covert ops. It's where they sneak in, get what they want, and get out. At that point Dooku had no knowledge of their plans to come over, likewise the Jedi had no knowledge of Dooku's turn to the dark side, therefore making him not so big a threat in their eyes. As for Jango, he's barely a threat to any Jedi, and the droids, well, they had no definite number of how many there were, which again supports my argument that a smaller force - maybe not 2 or 3, but let's say 10 - would have been more appropriate for a)Obi-Wan's rescue and b)determining the size of the droid army in order for them to set up a proper and organized assault.

Instead, what we have is a display of hundreds of Jedi getting their butts whooped by mindless droids that Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan used to butcher in TPM by the dozens. Even Gungans could hold them off for a while. This, in contrast, is what makes the elves in TTT look better since they go against a foe that is more deadly than anything they've seen before - an army BRED for destruction. One Uruk-hai has got to be worth close to one elf at melee range, but when you have ten thousand of them, they make an almost invincible opponent.

 

Again

1) They know Dooku's there, they also know Dooku WAS involved with the plot to assassinate Padme.
2) They know the Trade Federation is there.
3) The last shot they see of Kenobi is him battling Droidekas

It makes no sense to send a 2/3 Jedi, unless they were a 100% sure Kenobi was held in a cell somewhere.......but they don't, and by the time they would arrive there (it doesn't matter how many), he wouldn't be. Instead he's facing off with monsters and droids. Covert or not, those 2/3 Jedi would have to face Dooku/monsters/Jango/droids - which would result in an instant slaughter.

Again, the point is that the Jedi had no idea what they were facing. So they went in with whatever they could muster up.

- O_F

 

Well, all those Jedi go to Geonosis not only to rescue Obi, but also to strike Separatists as soon as possible.
There used to be one line delivered by Bail, which happened to be cut in the final version,
but refers to this intention: "We must stop them before they're ready".
And obviously Dooku/Mace exchange indicates that Jedi didn't expect to be so much outnumbered.

 

All very valid points ... thank you Mace for steering this in the right direction....


I just dont understand why lucas killed so many of the Jedi off in one acting sequence. I ALSO REALLY DONT UNDERSTAND WHY THE KI-ADI AAYLA AND PLO SCENE WAS GOD.... But I think it just totally took the image of the jedi and destroyed it. I loved seeing all these Jedi on screen but I did not like them all getting wiped out

 

i've always thought these movies are similar..

TPM/FOTR -both introduce the characters..some action scenes..nothing too major..but makes us want more..

AOTC/2 Towers - show the closeness of the relationship between main characters...some minor battles..then a big one to end it..

ROTS/ROTK-basically all fighting..cant really say anything here lol only in spoilers aloud section..

 

I think that there are some good points suggested by most in this thread, although I am a little uncertain as to the nature of this comparison. I guess that, superficially, there is a connection to be made between the Elves at Helm's Deep and the Jedi at Geonosis, in that both parties were wiped out, but the underlying "political issues" which motivate the respective assaults are somewhat different. Additionally, the two battle scenes appear to be quite dissimilar in their scope, and as such, I really view this as essentially a surface connection or link. Interesting, perhaps, but one which isn't necessarily intentional or anything other than arbitrary. I say this with all due respect. In fact, in Tolkien's novel, the battle of Helm's Deep is even less prominently displayed than it is in the corresponding film version - something which might further challenge the validity of the idea in question.

Instead what we have is a display of hundreds of Jedi getting their butts whooped by mindless droids that Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan used to butcher in TPM by the dozens. Even Gungans could hold them off for a while.

Some good points, aPPmaSTer. However, I think that it was the sheer volume of the battle droids that had a little to do with the Jedi's difficulty in dispensing with them in "Clones". If you will recall, (in TPM) the only droids that Obi and Qui-Gon were able to eliminate with ease were the spindly, beige Trade Federation droids who incessantly spurted "Roger, Roger". The Jedi had little to no chance against the droidekas, whom they narrowly escaped in the opening scenes of "The Phantom Menace", and did so only by going through that ventilation shaft. Later, in the Theed Palace hangar bay area, the droidekas are destroyed by Anakin's last minute, accidental "video-game shooting practice" from inside the cockpit of the Naboo fighter. As it concerns the Naboo land battle, the Gungans likely would have been defeated if not for Anakin's (once again) "accidental" destruction of the Trade Federation Control Ship; in fact, at one point, they actually gave up. The Gungans were outmatched, not unlike the Jedi in AOTC, by the massive number of droids, not their individual strength, which I think we will all agree was a more tenuous and somewhat questionable matter.

Part of the symbolic nature of the Trade Federation's reliance on mechanical creations to engage in combat has to do with the relative remove from humanity that one attains when being drawn to the darkside; in a subtle way, this technological semblance anticipates Anakin's fall to the darkside, and his ultimate emergence as the mechanical Vader.

KyleKatarn96 - All of your parallels are excellent.

To whom it may concern: (Off-topic) I apologize for my somewhat long-winded comments earlier in this thread. For the sake of clarity, I never suggested that I thought "The Two Towers" sucked. As a matter of fact, I actually think it's a good picture, but the least of the "Lord of the Rings" film trilogy. I own all three films on DVD. Please send me a PM if you take issue with any of my comments - do not discuss them here.

 

As for the Jedi, they came under the same conditions except they came to help olny one person, which I up to this day have a hard time accepting.

Actually, I thought they came to capture Dooku and suppress the Seperatist. Rescuing Obi-Wan and Co. was a side benefit.

 

The Elves are the Jedi of Lord of the Rings. They are meant to be keepers of the Peace not Warriors. They go to war when the should not when they want to. Lord of the Rings and Star Wars are so much alike. I can't belevie that some people compare Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter by saying how much there alike.

 

Sirius Black=Aragorn with a wand.

That's about it.

Now that I think about it there are many similarities between LOTR and SW. The battle of hoth and Pelleanor fields comes to mind.

 

In the book the Elves were not at Helm's Deep. That makes sense because the Elves (most of them) wouldn't give a **** about Rohan or Gondor anyway.