Did Padme love Anakin?

If anything, Padme commits career suicide by dealing with Anakin on that level. She had way more to lose than she had to gain by becoming romantically involved with Skywalker. She knows Jedi aren't suppose to marry but she marries one anyway. Now one might say that she's not doing anything wrong, it's Anakin who is disobeying the Jedi Code.

But as a galatic senator Padme looks extra bad because she married a Jedi, knowing Jedi aren't suppose to marry. It makes her appear incompetent and weak.

 

PMT -Padme was foolish to shut off the cameras just because her hormones went wild over the sight of Anakin and even Obi-wan would agree when he said, "What was she thinking?".

Me : Er... wouldn't the part about covering the cameras indicate that it's Anakin's hormones that have gone wild? How do you come to the conclusion that Padme's have?

PMT - No, because, again, watching over someone with cameras is on the job description of a security gaurd and Anakin was fulfilling that job description since he and Obi-wan were chosen to ensure Padme's safety. He can't do that now with the cameras covered, can he? That shows that it's not just his hormones going wild.

....what?
I'll ask again - how do you conclude that:
"Padme was foolish to shut off the cameras just because her hormones went wild over the sight of Anakin " ?

Just as Anakin was running out of the bedroom, you can see that Padme was looking in the same direction he was going and that indicates her romantic feelings for Anakin.

So watching someone leave a room indicates romantic feelings?

Nobody on Naboo knows who Shmi is because they never met her like Padme did and all they know is what they see with their eyes, namely their own Queen being responsible for their freedom so their not going to let her travel around the galaxy for the sake of it.

But if they did know about Shmi do you really think they'd object to Padme freeing the woman who helped them and their Queen?
And what's all this "travel around the galaxy" stuff?

g

 

I think the fact that she loves Anakin is more clear in the AOTC novel than the movie, because it explains why she pulls back all the time, and her feelings. Although I think it is pretty clear anyway. She said she loved him. She proved it by secretly marrying him. She had his children. Does Padme seem like the kind of person who would have sex with someone she did not love? She does not seem that way to me.


gezvader28: Uh, YOU check YOUR post. You mentioned that she "never asks about it [the Jedi helping Shmi] for 10 years." Who would she ask? Anakin? She did not see him. Obi? Didn't see him either. Qui-Gon? Not unless she was a total nutcase! And why would she ask anyone else? They didn't know her. Why would they know what happened? They wouldn't even know who Shmi was, most likely. Shmi was not the Jedi's mom, she is Anakin's.

 

Uh, YOU check YOUR post. You mentioned that she "never asks about it [the Jedi helping Shmi] for 10 years."

Yes that is the length of time between the movies.

Who would she ask? Anakin? She did not see him. Obi? Didn't see him either. Qui-Gon? Not unless she was a total nutcase! And why would she ask anyone else? They didn't know her. Why would they know what happened? They wouldn't even know who Shmi was, most likely. Shmi was not the Jedi's mom, she is Anakin's.

So first you say that Padme assumes the Jedi would help Shmi. But now you're saying that they wouldn't even know who Shmi was.
Er... ?

So according to you Padme lets the Jedi do it but doesn't bother to check if they did. Or are you now saying she was unable to ask? Either way it makes her dumb, heartless and ungrateful.

g

 

So first you say that Padme assumes the Jedi would help Shmi. But now you're saying that they wouldn't even know who Shmi was.

I still say that. Padme assumes the Jedi (namely Obi-wan) will help Shmi. MOST of the Jedi, probably the only Jedi Padme came into contact with, would not know Shmi.

Padme: So, how's Shmi?
Jedi: Who?
Padme: You know, Shmi. Ani's mother.
Jedi: I'm afraid I don't know anyone named Shmi.
Padme: Shmi Skywalker. Anakin Skywalker's mother!
Jedi: OH! Um... I don't know. Ask Yoda.
Padme: Okay. I'll just take time out from ruleing Naboo so I can get into contact with the Jedi Council and ask about Shmi.


Urg. I'm not posting here anymore. I think this argument is stupid. Although, knowing myself, I'll prbably end up coming back and posting anyway.

 

I don't think the Council would have helped Shmi even if they had known who she was. No "attachments", remember? They would have thought having a mother would be bad for Anakin.

 

That's what I'm saying.

Oh crap. So much for not posting here anymore.

 

I don't think the Council would have helped Shmi even if they had known who she was. No "attachments", remember? They would have thought having a mother would be bad for Anakin.

Freeing Shmi isn't the same as bringing her to the Jedi Temple.

(On the side, having attachments is forbidden for a reason. A Jedi should be dedicated first and foremost to the Force and then to himself or herself. When you bring in attachments, you bring in other loyalties. What would happen if Shmi had done something horrible (like murdering someone) and Anakin had to arrest her? Would he do it? What if Anakin had to choose between his mother and being a Jedi? What would he do?)

Depa Billaba

 

Freeing Shmi isn't the same as bringing her to the Jedi Temple.

I think LardBiscuit covered this very well in his new dissertation.
I think those of you trying to make out that Padme should of freed Shmi seem to miss an important point.

You can't control another person's destiny, you have to let them have their own free will and therefore choose their own destiny.

Which meant that Shmi should of been left alone, heartless as it may seem, because as we saw she still found a way free from slavery...she managed to have her own free will and choose to go with Cliegg Lars and live at the Lars Homestead.

The only relevance that Shmi has to the love story is when Anakin has seemingly been turned down by Padme and instead searches for the only love he has left, that from his mother.

 

You can't control another person's destiny, you have to let them have their own free will and therefore choose their own destiny.

I see. So, what you're actually saying is that we should have let Saddam Hussein continue on torturing his people, because interfering would be interfering with the Iraqi people's free will? Gottcha.

Depa Billaba

 

It is entirely possible that Padme could potentially have freed Shmi, maybe if Watto was torturing her. Then of course she'll have to free all the slaves as well.

 

So, what you're actually saying is that we should have let Saddam Hussein continue on torturing his people, because interfering would be interfering with the Iraqi people's free will?

There are in fact many people who would agree with that. (Note: I am not one of them.)

Question is, if Amidala were placed in the Saddam situation, would she be willing to lead Naboo into a war?

// possibly irrelevant



Rick McCallum loves you!

 

I see. So, what you're actually saying is that we should have let Saddam Hussein continue on torturing his people, because interfering would be interfering with the Iraqi people's free will?

It still applies, with time things change, new governments rise, people become free and lives go through the winding road that is destiny.

In ten years Shmi was freed by a kind moisture farmer, married said farmer and lived her last years of her life in a happiness she thought impossible. Who are we to argue that that isn't right? That instead she should of been freed earlier and have that destiny taken from her?

As I said before we must learn to let go and allow life to go on.....and let destiny take control.

 

In ten years Shmi was freed by a kind moisture farmer, married said farmer and lived her last years of her life in a happiness she thought impossible. Who are we to argue that that isn't right? That instead she should of been freed earlier and have that destiny taken from her?

Then why is Amidala even fighting a war against the Trade Federation? Her people will eventually free themselves from the atrocious Trade Federation without her help. By making their decisions for them, she is interfering with their free will.

It's really easy to say that what Amidala did was right after knowing that Shmi was freed by a kind moisture farmer. What if Shmi wasn't freed and in fact was sold to Gardulla the Hutt (again) and tortured, constantly raped, and mutilated? (IMHO, considering the situations in Tatooine, it is more likely that Shmi goes on being a slave than her being freed.) Would you still say that Amidala should have stayed aside and let Shmi do what she wants.

The thing that I don't understand the most is how "free will" even comes into the equation. Shmi has no choice about being a slave or not being a slave here. She can't miraculously do something to free herself. Somebody else has to free her. That somebody, whether be it Cliegg or Obi-Wan or Anakin or Amidala, is still still someone. Cliegg freeing Shmi is okay but Amidala freeing her is interfering with Shmi's "free will." Meanwhile, Shmi spends more time being a slave and having a horrible life because Amidala didn't want to interfere with Shmi's "free will."

For the record, I am not going to mandate that Amidala go free Shmi. There's no reason for her to have to do that. But I feel that, considering her character, and considering how much Anakin and Shmi have done for her, she would have done it.

Depa Billaba

 

Gezvader28-

"...what?
I'll ask again - how do you conclude that:
"Padme was foolish to shut off the cameras just because her hormones went wild over the sight of Anakin" ?"

Maybe if you payed close attention to their reunion scene, then you know what the hell I'm talking about because Padme was clearly turned on when she sees a grown up Anakin even though she did her best to suppress her reaction.

"So watching someone leave a room indicates romantic feelings? "

And I suppose you didn't notice anything from Leia when she watched the shield doors closing knowing that Han Solo was still outside looking for Luke?

"But if they did know about Shmi do you really think they'd object to Padme freeing the woman who helped them and their Queen?"

Yes, for the same reason why Obi-wan wouldn't let Anakin go back for Padme when she fell off the gunship, "she would do her duty" and that duty was to be the Queen of Naboo, not a slave liberator.

 

Then why is Amidala even fighting a war against the Trade Federation?

Well I dont presume I know where Tee-Sin is going with this, however I think your logic is flawed and it seems like you havent got a clue.

Padme has to fight the Trade Federation, because Naboo is her planet and its her fight to win...thats the key thing there. Its her destiny the Trade Federation have tried to take control of, and she has to fight to give back to Naboo it s destiny and to help free her own people.

Which is the difference with Iraq because you yanks freed Iraq, when in time the Iraqis could well have been free because of different circumstances. The Americans robbed the Iraqi citizens of their own chance to be free, their own destiny.

And thats what Padme, the Jedi or Anakin would do if they freed Shmi during the 10 years between the films, robbing her of finding her own happiness by not letting her have her own free will in what happens to her.

Thats what I think Tee-Sin is saying, though I think he wasn't saying it right.

 

Maybe if you payed close attention to their reunion scene, then you know what the hell I'm talking about because Padme was clearly turned on when she sees a grown up Anakin even though she did her best to suppress her reaction.


I didn't notice her supressing her reaction - she gave him a big smile appropriate to someone who is seeing someone grown up . But somehow you conclude that this proves her subsequent actions demonstrate her hormones are wild for him - in a scene we don't even see! All we know is she covered the cameras, and I think Anakin's guess on the matter is correct.

And I suppose you didn't notice anything from Leia when she watched the shield doors closing knowing that Han Solo was still outside looking for Luke?

Your supposition would be wrong.
As for Padme - I noticed that she looked startled, she had after all been suddenly awoken by a lightsaber and a huge worm being sliced in two . Looking startled is the reaction I'd expect, but you somehow manage to see romantic feelings in that scene.

Yes, for the same reason why Obi-wan wouldn't let Anakin go back for Padme when she fell off the gunship, "she would do her duty" and that duty was to be the Queen of Naboo, not a slave liberator.

Okay, let's follow your comparison through to it's logical conclusion:
Assuming Padme hadn't been rescued do you think that Obi and Anakin would've just done nothing about her for the next 10 years?

Obi and Anakin were in the middle of a crucial battle, it's nothing like Padme's situation post-TPM.
And - who said Padme would have to stop being Queen in order for her to free Shmi?
If the Naboo people are as selfish as you suggest then they didn't deserve liberating.


g

 

As for all this talk about Destiny - it doesn't mean anything. It's just a convenient word used to describe what ultimately happened.

I don't see Padme using this idea, she's a pro-active person. Is she meant to believe that Shmi's destiny is to be a slave?
The characters in the movie are IN the story, they don't know where each person is going to end up.

Its her destiny the Trade Federation have tried to take control of, and she has to fight to give back to Naboo it s destiny and to help free her own people.

And if she'd lost the battle we'd be saying "it was her destiny to lose the battle", it doesn't really mean anything.

The characters don't know their destiny, all they can do is what they think is right.
So the question is - what would Padme do?

g

 

Padme has to fight the Trade Federation, because Naboo is her planet and its her fight to win... thats the key thing there. Its her destiny the Trade Federation have tried to take control of, and she has to fight to give back to Naboo it s destiny and to help free her own people.

I asked because I had no idea where you guys were coming from. At one level, Naboo's people and Shmi are in identical situations as related to Amidala. When Amidala fought the Trade Federation, she did it for HER PEOPLE, not for herself, therefore an argument could be made that she was interfering with their free will. Maybe if she hadn't done anything, ten years from now they would have liked living under the Trade Federation. Or maybe they would have revolted against the Trade Federation and brought it to its knees. The point is that she made the decision for her people, thereby interfering with their free will.

The only difference between HER PEOPLE and Shmi is that, well, they are HER PEOPLE. Since I found the whole "free will" argument ridiculous to begin with, I wanted to know whether I was asking questions - and half of them, the main half of them, seem to have gotten ignored - to see exactly where you were coming from. That doesn't mean that my logic is flawed, it means that I wasn't ready to assume anything.

Which is the difference with Iraq because you yanks freed Iraq, when in time the Iraqis could well have been free because of different circumstances. The Americans robbed the Iraqi citizens of their own chance to be free, their own destiny.

And thats what Padme, the Jedi or Anakin would do if they freed Shmi during the 10 years between the films, robbing her of finding her own happiness by not letting her have her own free will in what happens to her.

I'm sorry, but this whole thing is utter garbage.

If Jedi or Anakin freed Shmi during the ten years between the flims, they would be interfering with her free will. But if Cliegg freed her, he wouldn't?

The Iraq situation is NOT similar to Shmi's situation, because you are arguing that the Iraqis may have freed themselves whereas with Shmi, there's no chance of her freeing herself. It HAS to be somebody else. Whether be it Qui-Gon, Anakin, Obi-Wan, Cliegg, Amidala, Watto, or Abcdef, it doesn't make any difference. In fact, what happened in AOTC is that Cliegg freed her. What's the difference if Obi-Wan or Amidala or Anakin had done it ten years ago?

Edit -

PMT99: Yes, for the same reason why Obi-wan wouldn't let Anakin go back for Padme when she fell off the gunship, "she would do her duty" and that duty was to be the Queen of Naboo, not a slave liberator.

It's a good thing that not all people think like Obi-Wan and Amidala then because if they had, then Shmi would still have been a slave in AOTC.

Depa Billaba

 

First off thanks DT, you basically got what I was trying to say.

If Jedi or Anakin freed Shmi during the ten years between the flims, they would be interfering with her free will. But if Cliegg freed her, he wouldn't?

Not if thats what she wanted from him...remember this is the man she falls in love with and marrys. Its not a stretch of the imagination to come to the conclusion that Shmi wanted Cliegg to free her because she fell in love with him. And doesn't eliminate her free will, it enhances it by showing that she wanted him to set her free.

The Iraq situation is NOT similar to Shmi's situation, because you are arguing that the Iraqis may have freed themselves whereas with Shmi, there's no chance of her freeing herself. It HAS to be somebody else. Whether be it Qui-Gon, Anakin, Obi-Wan, Cliegg, Amidala, Watto, or Abcdef, it doesn't make any difference. In fact, what happened in AOTC is that Cliegg freed her. What's the difference if Obi-Wan or Amidala or Anakin had done it ten years ago?

The difference as I have put above is that Shmi obviously loved Cliegg (if you ask me) before she had been freed from slavery. How ever the two met, somehow it was through her own free will that she let Cliegg in her life and even let him free her.

 

Not if thats what she wanted from him...remember this is the man she falls in love with and marrys. Its not a stretch of the imagination to come to the conclusion that Shmi wanted Cliegg to free her because she fell in love with him. And doesn't eliminate her free will, it enhances it by showing that she wanted him to set her free.

This is complete speculation on your part Tee-Sin. What we know is that Cliegg freed Shmi and that later they married. We don't know anything about when Shmi fell in love.

And Shmi would have wanted to be freed from Amidala or Obi-Wan, as well. Unless you're suggesting that she would say no if they asked her if she wanted to be freed?

The difference as I have put above is that Shmi obviously loved Cliegg (if you ask me) before she had been freed from slavery. How ever the two met, somehow it was through her own free will that she let Cliegg in her life and even let him free her.

This is also completely speculation. We really don't know. Cliegg freed and married her. Shmi doesn't even come into the equation. To say that she loves Cliegg and wanted him to free her would be relevant...if you are saying that Shmi didn't love Obi-Wan and Amidala and didn't want them to free her? Is that it?

Depa Billaba

 

This is complete speculation on your part Tee-Sin. What we know is that Cliegg freed Shmi and that later they married. We don't know anything about when Shmi fell in love.

So? At least I'm willing to open my mind to that possibility.
And shouldnt it make sense that she fell in love with Cliegg before she was freed?

Sorry you dont like speculation.

EDIT:

This is also completely speculation. We really don't know.

But we do, we dont need concrete evidence we have our own imagination. And that is what the films allow in. My imagination says that Shmi fell in love with Cliegg before she was freed from slavery, it makes most sense to me.
If you dont know, you're not opening your mind to any possibilities, you limit yourself to whats on the screen and that is sad indeed.

Cliegg freed and married her. Shmi doesn't even come into the equation. To say that she loves Cliegg and wanted him to free her would be relevant...if you are saying that Shmi didn't love Obi-Wan and Amidala and didn't want them to free her? Is that it?

Well first of all she wouldnt love Obi-Wan because she never saw him or even spoke to him in TPM.....your logic is rather flawed here.
Secondly, who is Padme freeing Shmi for? Is it for Shmi to give her a chance to move on? Or would it be to make Anakin happy? The same applies to the Jedi...if they freed Shmi, whats their motivation? To make Shmi happy or just to create a more comfortable enviroment for Anakin?
If Padme or the Jedi just freed Shmi because of Anakin, then clearly its a wrong move. It denies her free will to do what she wants because inevitably the Jedi would move her to a safe haven and so would Padme. They aren't doing it to let her have a proper choice in her life.
But because Cliegg freed Shmi because they loved each other, he was giving her a chance to make her own choice on life and to live her own life....and she chose to live with him because she loved him. Simple.

 

I have no problem with speculation. I do it myself. I have a problem with people who try to pass off speculation as facts.

We don't know, from the movies, whether Shmi fell in love with Cliegg before or after he freed her. And this is completely irrelevant to the discussion any way since you seem to suggest that Shmi, having loved Cliegg, would want him to free her, which therefore doesn't interfere with her free will. But that should only be brought up if you think that Shmi, having not loved Amidala, would not have wanted her to free her. Unless you are, in fact, saying that were Amidala to ask Shmi if she wanted to be freed (by her) and Shmi says "no," your argument doesn't make any sense at all.

Edit - I see you edited while I was posting.

Well first of all she wouldnt love Obi-Wan because she never saw him or even spoke to him in TPM.....your logic is rather flawed here.

No, you are misreading my question. I was asking you whether you thought that Shmi wouldn't want Obi-Wan to free her because she doesn't love him. Aka, is loving the person who wants to free you a prerequisite for wanting to be freed?

Secondly, who is Padme freeing Shmi for? Is it for Shmi to give her a chance to move on? Or would it be to make Anakin happy? The same applies to the Jedi...if they freed Shmi, whats their motivation? To make Shmi happy or just to create a more comfortable enviroment for Anakin?

Why does the motivation even come into the equation?

If Padme or the Jedi just freed Shmi because of Anakin, then clearly its a wrong move. It denies her free will to do what she wants because inevitably the Jedi would move her to a safe haven and so would Padme. They aren't doing it to let her have a proper choice in her life.

Actually, Cliegg also moved her away to a "safe haven" (away from Watto). You are also assuming that the Jedi would move her away to a safe haven. We don't know that. Are you telling me that if Shmi asked them to leave her in Tatooine because she wanted to live here, they are going to forcefully take her away to some place else? Finally, I still don't see how Amidala and Obi-Wan freeing Shmi would be interfering with her free will. Didn't Qui-Gon interfere with Anakin's free will when he freed Anakin, by your argument? Is he wrong, then? What if Obi-Wan or Amidala were to ask Shmi's permission before freeing her?

Amidala: Dear Shmi, your son helped the Naboo people a lot and I don't believe in slavery any way. I want to free you. Do you want to be freed by me?

Shmi: Umm. All right, I guess.

Amidala: Thanks! (to Tee-Sin) Now do you have a problem?

But because Cliegg freed Shmi because they loved each other, he was giving her a chance to make her own choice on life and to live her own life....and she chose to live with him because she loved him. Simple.

We don't know that Shmi necessarily loved Cliegg when he freed her. We know that Cliegg probably loved Shmi when he freed her, though. But we also know that Amidala (probably) respects Shmi. The least we can say about Shmi and Amidala's relationship is that they are something similar to friends. (At least they aren't enemies, and I think it's pretty obvious that they share a relationship that is more than indifferent.) Why do you need to love the person to free her? Why do you need to be loved by the person you are freeing to free her? Isn't mutural respect enough?

Depa Billaba

 

What would happen if Shmi had done something horrible (like murdering someone) and Anakin had to arrest her?

Maybe cops shouldn't have families then.

If Shmi murdered someone, then I'm sure another Jedi could arrest her. It wouldn't have to be Ani.

I think not allowing the Jedi to have attachments makes them emotionless droids. Look at Mace and Yoda. And the only time Obi-Wan showed emotion is when he was pleading with Anakin on the gunship and when Qui-Gon died.

So, what you're actually saying is that we should have let Saddam Hussein continue on torturing his people, because interfering would be interfering with the Iraqi people's free will?

Are we defining moral codes here? Didn't Saddam think it was OK to do that? Who are we to tell another culture that their ways are wrong?

For the record, I am not going to mandate that Amidala go free Shmi. There's no reason for her to have to do that. But I feel that, considering her character, and considering how much Anakin and Shmi have done for her, she would have done it.

I think she should have or the Jedi should have, and my feeling is that either lack of money or a huge plot hole got in the way.

Then why is Amidala even fighting a war against the Trade Federation?

Because her entire planet is being put into prison camps?

 

"I didn't notice her suppressing her reaction - she gave him a big smile appropriate to someone who is seeing someone grown up."

You obviously don't know women, do you?

When a woman sees a good looking man that they find attractive, a smile is the only thing they need to hide their giddiness and excitement from him so that he doesn't suspect that she's attracted to him.

"All we know is she covered the cameras, and I think Anakin's guess on the matter is correct."

You don't know that.

For all we know, Anakin was only watching Padme just to see if she's okay and that Zam the assassain hadn't succeeded with her second assasination attempt and last I check, that kind of act is NOT stalkerish, it's being the defender of peace and justice in the galaxy like a Jedi should be.

"Your supposition would be wrong."

See, that's where you're mistaken because both Han and Luke are outside and we don't know who Leia feels for the most.

"As for Padme - I noticed that she looked startled, she had after all been suddenly awoken by a lightsaber and a huge worm being sliced in two. Looking startled is the reaction I'd expect, but you somehow manage to see romantic feelings in that scene."

It's not the looking startled part that reveals the indication, it's ,again, the part where Anakin is running out of the bedroom and Padme's head is pointing in the same direction he's going that reveals it.

"Okay, let's follow your comparison through to it's logical conclusion: Assuming Padme hadn't been rescued do you think that Obi and Anakin would've just done nothing about her for the next 10 years?"

For Anakin, hell no.
For Obi-wan, he would considering the "no attachment" rule and that he "has a job to do".

"And - who said Padme would have to stop being Queen in order for her to free Shmi? If the Naboo people are as selfish as you suggest then they didn't deserve liberating."

How can the Naboo people be selfish when they have no knowledge of what their Queen was doing during her time away from Naboo. It's like you're suggesting that that they are all aware of Padme's relationship with Shmi but if that were true, then I would agree that they would let Padme go and free her but as it is, they know absolutely nothing so they are not going to let Padme abandon her responsibilities as their Queen despite what she has done for them.

Depa Billaba-"It's a good thing that not all people think like Obi-wan and Amidala then because if they had, then Shmi would still have been a slave in AOTC. "

But not all people are Jedi, Queens, or Senators because no matter how much they hate the idea, they have to put duty above everything else, even their own needs.