"Judge me by my size, do you?" - Vader's Force Ability in Relation to the Condition of his Body

DarthJuggalo:

"Thats all and good but the fact that your boy Lucas CONSTANTLY seems to want to contradict himself would make one believe that maybe he doesn't know his movies as well as we think he does.

Every justification he spits out about the CT duels compared to the PT duels are totally contradicted by the PT period. The PT shows old men(Dooku, Sidious, Yoda)all at the top of their game.

I think everyone understands that he is the creator of Star Wars. That doesn't make him perfect though. Going with your logic, I guess you believe that Han didn't shoot first huh?

Just because Lucas says so doesn't mean it makes sense. "


Leave it to the jaded to find fault in everything. Exactly when did he contradict himself? Seems to me more like your baseless opinion that he contradicts himself than a factual, proven assertion.

Dooku, Sidious and Yoda, as has been established, have been active at that point, Old Ben hasn't. He has spent his time preparing to become truly powerful, through the force, not dueling. The same OT gives the answer when Vader himself denounces Ben of his "weakness," by saying: "Your powers are weak old man." That phrase does not in any way infer that he would be weak for being old, quite the contrary, seems to me that Vader is surprised that Ben is weak. What he doesn't know is that Ben is on his way to become "more powerful than you can possibly imagine." That, my friend, goes beyond mere capacity to duel and do flips. Furthermore, we are making a huge, I repeat, HUGE assumption when we believe Ben wasn't capable to fight better. Heck, going by ANH alone a smart person would deduct that in fact Ben isn't weak at all, but rather that he has a plan to carry out: sacrifice himself, become more powerful and inspire Luke to destroy his father all at the same time. Remember that Ben firmly believes Luke must destroy Vader. Luke: "I can't kill my own father!" Ben: "Then the Emperor has already won..."

Now, as I said before, the OT itself shows his explanations to be true. Whichever way you look at it or interpret it, Vader is a hulking robot, and that will inevitably make him a little slower, though not neccessarily weaker. Besides, the OT does have some flipping and acrobatic Jedi style! Sure, it's limited, but the reasons are sound. In ESB we see a glimpse of what Jedi can do. Luke performs an awesome super jump that even earns him praise form Vader, "Impressive...most impresive!" He is surprised that this boy can actually do some advanced Jedi moves! Luke, whether you like it or not, IS a half assed trained Jedi, and yet he manages to do some cool flips. In ROTJ he performs great leaps in the duel (hinting at the potential of fighting using the force). Even Vader does some acrobatics. Remember his little flying down the steps in ROTJ? That reveals a lot of his true potential. Personally, I firmly beleieve that people who want to find hole will inevitably find them. In truth, if the PT didn't have all the amazing acrobatics and super kinetic duels I would have been dissappointed and all the bashers would have been up in arms because it "doesn't make sense that Jedi in their prime can fight better than this slow crap!" The argument on this would be totally opposite and people would be clamoring for the PT to have shown Jedi using the Force to greater effect in dueling. The OT hints plenty that Jedi of old would have been exaclty as they were in the PT.


As far as Lucas and his descisions, well, maybe when you become a successful writer you'll understand a creative process and how creators decide to adjust their work to better suit their taste, until then, ignorance does not justify bashing.

Han shooting first: Most... overblown...piece...of...trivia.
So what if he shot first!?!?! Honestly, if that is ruining SW for you then how sad it is.

And lastly:

Just because you don't accept reasons doesn't make those reasons invalid!

 

To say that George Lucas has never contradicted himself is a travisty. Why do you

 

Darthjuggalo said,
"To say that George Lucas has never contradicted himself is a travisty. Why do you think people come to these boards? There are too many instances of Lucas' contradictions for me to even mention."

Sweetcurse said,
It is not a travesty, is joyful acceptance of the explanations given. Happy people come to this boards to share their love for the saga...if some come to whine and complain because things aren't done their way is sad. If people only came here to talk about "contradictions," then this board would have imploded years ago. Instead of complaining, people can offer their opinions or, if capable, discussing the saga with civility leaving the crying child at home. To me, saying simply that "there are too many to mention" is not an effective argument. It is my OPINION that all these "contradictions" have perfectly good explanations that are satisfying to many, including me, therefore increasing my enjoyment everytime I sit down to watch the saga. Now, I never have said Lucas is infallible, I simply said he IS the creator and he does know his stuff, and based on that knowledge he makes descisions, for which he offers explanations, and we can see them his way and enjoy, or be bitter forever, your choice. Personally, if I was to accept someone's opinion blindly on SW, you can bet your hyperdrive I'd do it from Lucas. There Are definitely things I'd like different, because I am an idividual and my preferences do differ from everyone else's, but SW is driven by one man, and to please everyone's personal preferences is impossible, instead, we can enjoy the work. Now, this is not the place to get into what I'd do different in the saga, or talk about these other "many contradictions." Simply create an new post on them and we can discuss them.


Darthjuggalo said,
"The fact that you acknowledge the contradiciton of Han shooting first proves my point here. And never did I say this ruined Star Wars for me."

Sweetcurse said,
I truly did not understand this part quite well. But if I read it correctly, then I have to say I never accepted or said this was a contradiction. I said:
"Han shooting first: Most... overblown...piece...of...trivia.
So what if he shot first!?!?! Honestly, if that is ruining SW for you then how sad it is."
To me, Lucas changed his mind about how he wanted the scene, blame it on parenthood or whatever, and the scene is now different, period. Will it suit everyone's taste? NO! It isn't meant to. In the end, my point was that, to me, that scene does not amount to anything. You are right, you didn't say this runied it for you, but it obviously bothers you, and it doesn't bother me, nothing to it and in all truth a completely displaced discussion.


Darthjuggalo said,
"I'm simply pointing out that Mr. Lucas says some things and makes some decisions that totally clash with what he is trying to show on screen."

Sweetcurse said,
How so? I'd really like it if you stopped being so vague about this.

Darthjuggalo said,
"I must've hit something pretty close to the mark to get you wound up enough to start verbally attacking me........But believe me, there are plenty of people on these boards that feel the way I do."

Sweetcurse said,
I sincerely and whole heartedly apologize, I never meant ot attack you, if it sounded like that then I'm truly sorry. And yes, you hit a spot (I wouldn't even take the time to respond at all to this if it didn't would I, ?) But not the spot you think. It just saddens me that not everyone enjoys this the same way I do, and it shouldn't bother me. In the end everyone is responsible for their own actions and they really do not affect me in the end. Again, sorry if I said anything agressive...I am pasionate about SW, and that comes through I'm sure (I'm like a ton of bricks sometimes) so maybe we can continue this with civility?

Darthjuggalo said,
"Back to the arguement;
Its not established that Sidious has been active in battle. RotS was the

 

If joyfully accepting Lucas explanations of obvious inconsistancies means turning a blind eye on your own common sense and just eating what is fed to you, then by all means knock yourself out. If you simply don't see some inconsistancies or contradicitons on your own and need me to point out every one, then you are already out of reach. But there are many threads discussing the discrepencies and contradictions of the saga. This isn't the thread for me to list them here.


Just the fact that you don't acknowledge that there are contradictions would show yourself to believe that Lucas IS infallible. You do however acknowledge the fact that Lucas likes to "change his mind" about his creation which he has every right to do. But the fact is, the 30 year gap between trilogies is gonna make it nearly impossible to make changes and still have everything flow seemlessly together. Having everything flow together is one of Lucas' pet peeves when it comes to his saga. If there weren't any contradicitons there would be nothing for Lucas to offer explanations on. The fact that he has to come up with explanations on why things are the way they are in one movie and different in another movie proves my point. Especially when those explanations don't match up to whats on screen. For example the "Obi Wan and Vader are old men past their prime" explanation.


Excepting Lucas' questionable explanations doesn't make you a happier fan. It makes you a blinded fan. You try to make it sound like I'm the only one who sees these inconsistancies. You have every right to turn your cheek on these issues. But accepting them does not make them disappear.


All my opinions are based on my own accord. I was spoon fed nothing accept what I see on screen. Thats what makes us different, you accept Lucas' explanations and I debate them. Its that simple. But please do not sit here with an elitest atttitude toward other fans who discuss minor discrepencies in the films that they love just as much as you. I too am passionate about Star Wars, thats why I'm here to discuss what I like about it and yes, what I don't like as well.


The fact that there is nothing you don't like about the movies is fine and dandy. But please don't act like the problems I have with them are made up of delusional hatred. The contradictions I mention are widely debated on these boards and are not something I just came up with off the top of my head to come here and bash. Now that I'm done defending myself, we can continue the debate.




I don't believe that Obi Wan is weak. In fact, everything we see in the PT would lead me to believe that he is not weak(with Yoda, Dooku, and Sidious being at the top of their game).

And Sidious' situations is very much like Obi Wans and Yoda's in the CT. They were both waiting behind the scenes for their plans to unfold. Obi Wan and Yoda with Luke and Sidious with taking over the galaxy. Sidious was controlling everything from the inside. He was doing this so he DIDN'T have to fight. Its the only way he could accomplish his goal. Sidious is not a warrior. He accomplished his goal through violence yes, but he made sure he was far away from the violence until it came to his front door. Sidious was an old man who hadn't been in physcial combat for ages. Yet his combat prowess is un affected. Even the last person he physically killed before Mace and the posse was his master whom he killed in his sleep.

Obi Wan talking about Yoda's dueling prowess to Anakin was doing nothing but speaking of Yoda's reputation. The only time Yoda had pulled his saber out was when he was training. Until the Clone Wars started, Yoda and the rest of the Jedi had seen no real combat in many years. Especially combat against other saber users.


So to say that Obi Wan can't fight anymore because hes old is a direct contradiction of AotC, and RotS. Every other force user gets better with age accept Obi Wan??? Ok..........If thats what you want to tell yourself.

 

Darth Juggalo has it right!
Saying that Luke/Vader/Obi-Wan are weaker/bad duelists because of how the duels look in the OT is like saying that one Naboo Starfighter can defeat ten x-wings (just because the technology of filming them in action has progressed).
The funny thing about the whole issue is that if you go on only what is in the films (and you understand that the OT was made 15+ years before the PT) then there really is no discrepancy.
What you get from direct observation of the films is:
1-Anakin has more force potential than anyone (numerous quotes)
2-Being old doesn't slow you down (Yoda, Dooku, Sids)
3-Cybernetics enhances certain things and hinders others (Greivous)
4-Size/physicality doesn't inhibit force-ability (Yoda, "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter").
5-Vader in the suit losses none of his force-ability but still looses alot. He is now dependant on machines to live. He sees and experiences the world with the aid of machines. He can't relate to people and looses human/alien contact (he does not speak face to face with people, and he cannot touch people skin-to-skin).

GL always has to fiddle with his works (like a painter re-painting a painting). He feels that technical advancements in filmaking require either re-doing earlier effects or giving awkward explanations.

 

"If joyfully accepting Lucas explanations of obvious inconsistancies means turning a blind eye on your own common sense and just eating what is fed to you, then by all means knock yourself out."

It is precisely my common sense that allows me to understand that what Lucas says rings true. I will always accept Lucas's opinion on SW if it works, and it does beyond expactations.

"If you simply don't see some inconsistancies or contradicitons on your own and need me to point out every one, then you are already out of reach. But there are many threads discussing the discrepencies and contradictions of the saga. This isn't the thread for me to list them here.

I'm yet to see one thread with a PROVEN contradiction or inconsisitency. Although it is true this isn't the thread to discuss other things. Nevertheless, insisting on using vague explanations to justify your opinions still sounds like a cop out.


"Just the fact that you don't acknowledge that there are contradictions would show yourself to believe that Lucas IS infallible."


Lucas is infalible to me as far as SW plots is refered. He is the ultimate authority on all things SW and that cannot be denied. I do acknowledge that he is not infalible in everything in life or exempt from making mistakes, he IS a man after all, but we are talking here about very deliberate descisions he has made about the story, descisions that work.

"You do however acknowledge the fact that Lucas likes to "change his mind" about his creation which he has every right to do. But the fact is, the 30 year gap between trilogies is gonna make it nearly impossible to make changes and still have everything flow seemlessly together. Having everything flow together is one of Lucas' pet peeves when it comes to his saga."

After watching ROTS everything in the saga flows great for me. He has obviously made very careful descisions about the direction of the plot and his reasons are good. And it is precisely that drive to make everything fit that makes those explanations click with me.



"If there weren't any contradicitons there would be nothing for Lucas to offer explanations on. The fact that he has to come up with explanations on why things are the way they are in one movie and different in another movie proves my point. Especially when those explanations don't match up to whats on screen. For example the "Obi Wan and Vader are old men past their prime" explanation."

No, he has to offer explanations because people are to busy whining about his descisions and need every little detail explained to them instead of taking the time to analyze the intrincacies and nuances of the story on their own. "Your focus determines your reality." If you concentrate on the intrincacies and nuances and enjoy the depth of the saga, then that is what you'll find. But if you concentrate on looking for "discrepancies" and "inconsistencies" then that is what you'll get.


"Excepting Lucas' questionable explanations doesn't make you a happier fan. It makes you a blinded fan. You try to make it sound like I'm the only one who sees these inconsistancies. You have every right to turn your cheek on these issues. But accepting them does not make them disappear.All my opinions are based on my own accord. I was spoon fed nothing accept what I see on screen."


And complaining constantly about "contradictions" and trying to impose your preferences doesn't make the story change either. Instead, you can try to enjoy the darn thing for a change instead of trying to tell the world how you know better than anyone else how the saga should go. I do not accept anything blindly. I carefully analyze the plot and its reasons (given by their writer) of being and make a conscious descision about their validity. In this case I find the reasons valid and interesting.

"Thats what makes us different, you accept Lucas' explanations and I debate them. Its that simple."

And that my friend is by far the best thing you've said so far. Simple and pragmatic view of our sta

 

omg i got a head ache on page 2.

The moral of the story is "Never listen to Lucas".

It's impossible to believe everything he says and believe what my lieing eyes see on the screen.

 

Hmm, I'm not sure that's the moral at all...

Very interesting debate, some very good points brought up here.

 

Unless people can prove that Lucas contradicted himself, they should stop trying to argue like they've already won. I've yet to see a concrete example of contradiction.

 

"omg i got a head ache on page 2."

I take some offense at someone saying our arguments give them a headache. If you feel that way simply do not post here and that's it. It is very disrespectful to brush aside hours of typing by several people just because you don't find it interesting, it is quite disrespectful.
If the debate does not interest you that is fine, but don't try to impose that on others.

"The moral of the story is "Never listen to Lucas". "

We ARE talking about SW here, something he made, I think listening to him is valid enough.

"It's impossible to believe everything he says and believe what my lieing eyes see on the screen. "

I will at least listen attentively to what he has to say, then judge it. As for believing only what you see on the movies, that is a good stance too. Although much of what he says is easily infered in the films.


"Hmm, I'm not sure that's the moral at all...

Very interesting debate, some very good points brought up here. "


Thanks, I'm sure all those who have invested their time here appreciate that sentiment.

"Unless people can prove that Lucas contradicted himself, they should stop trying to argue like they've already won. I've yet to see a concrete example of contradiction. "

Finally an ally! Thanks!

 

Here are my comments for what they're worth:

Timing: Lucas was quoted as saying that Obi Vs Darth in Ep IV was slow in comparison to the Maul Vs Obi/Qui-Gon battle due to their old age RIGHT AFTER he finished making episode I. As yet they hadnt cast the new bad guy for Episode II and if you watch the documentries they have designs for a female bad jedi and several other options but decide on an elder statesman type and thus cast Christopher Lee. Right there is where the Lucas has messed up - Although in a way I'm glad he did as Dooku is one of my favourite characters. If he had cast a different Dooku

You can't also have the same argument about Yoda being old because for a start he isnt human, and he's already 900yrs old so clealry his species has a life span that isnt natural by our standards - they may be perfectly fit and healthy until the last 10yrs of their life say.

As for Sideous not weilding his sabre prior to the Mace conflict - He has been training Maul and Dooku so I'm pretty sure they werent fighting with broom handles.

If you look with unbiased eyes I think you'll see that the CT was made in a certain style with the best training that was available at the time. Lucas was right to try and show the jedi in the prime with super moves and all but to be honest I think he took it a bit too far by making CT seem slow. Not all Jedi's are equal. Obi and Darth were meant to be some of the best Jedi - also according to the CT Darth was meant to still be a learner when he left Obi - didnt look that way to me!

I love the PT but to be honest it could have been alot better. The linking of the two trilogies in Ep III was almost cringeworthy in places. Chewie knows Yoda? Oh please! Tarkin on the bridge - groan! Dooku is Yoda's apprentice and Qui Gon was his apprentice - OMG! Pleeeease!!!!!!! All these things shrink the SW universe so much - it takes away some of the grand scale of it and answers way too many questions that people like unanswered so that they can use their imagination.

 

"Here are my comments for what they're worth:"

Worth very much, like anyone else's.

"Timing: Lucas was quoted as saying that Obi Vs Darth in Ep IV was slow in comparison to the Maul Vs Obi/Qui-Gon battle due to their old age RIGHT AFTER he finished making episode I. As yet they hadnt cast the new bad guy for Episode II and if you watch the documentries they have designs for a female bad jedi and several other options but decide on an elder statesman type and thus cast Christopher Lee. Right there is where the Lucas has messed up - Although in a way I'm glad he did as Dooku is one of my favourite characters. If he had cast a different Dooku"


"You will find that many of the thruths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."
For me, deciding to cast Lee, proves he knows what he's doing. Obviously to him Dooku being old does not in any way interfere with what happens in the older trilogy. Dooku is in action, and training and Ben isn't, he meditates to become a force ghost.


"You can't also have the same argument about Yoda being old because for a start he isnt human, and he's already 900yrs old so clealry his species has a life span that isnt natural by our standards - they may be perfectly fit and healthy until the last 10yrs of their life say. "

Again, Ben isn't weaker at dueling for old age, he is because that doesn't intersets him anymore and even then he's plenty capable. Also, in ATOC we do see that fighitng takes a huge effort for old guys, look at Yoda and Dooku's expressions after dueling, they are exhausted. Yoda was very much active in practicing in the PT, not so for the last 20+ years of his life. Furthermore, we do not see him fight so the best conclusion we can make there is that he too might have let himself go in that area. Also, it isn't said that those two couldn't flip out anymore, they just don't, and Vader remarks on it, "your powers are weak," as if he was expecting better form Ben, and he should from what he knew old guys could do.

"As for Sideous not weilding his sabre prior to the Mace conflict - He has been training Maul and Dooku so I'm pretty sure they werent fighting with broom handles. "

Exaclty, makes plenty of sense.

"If you look with unbiased eyes I think you'll see that the CT was made in a certain style with the best training that was available at the time. Lucas was right to try and show the jedi in the prime with super moves and all but to be honest I think he took it a bit too far by making CT seem slow. Not all Jedi's are equal."


And you know, that is true. But we can't say that that's the sole reason the duels are slower or else there wouldn't be in universe explanations ("your powers are weak") and glimpses of Jedi dueling at its best (Luke and Vader doing flips and flying around a little bit, hinting that there IS more to Jedi dueling).

"Obi and Darth were meant to be some of the best Jedi - also according to the CT Darth was meant to still be a learner when he left Obi - didnt look that way to me!"

Being a master is more than simple swordplay (something many here focus on TOO much) it is also about wisdom and control, and that, Obi had plenty more than Annie. Also, he DID cut him to pieces by being smarter (a master) so Annie WAS pawned.

"I love the PT but to be honest it could have been alot better."

Personal preference is good, but let's not rob credit where credit is due. The PT is plenty good, but again, that's a personal preference.


"The linking of the two trilogies in Ep III was almost cringeworthy in places. Chewie knows Yoda? Oh please! Tarkin on the bridge - groan! Dooku is Yoda's apprentice and Qui Gon was his apprentice - OMG! Pleeeease!!!!!!! All these things shrink the SW universe so much - it takes away some of the grand scale of it and answers way too many questions that people like unanswered so that they can use their imagination."

You mean like Luke being Vader's son, or Leia's brother, or R2 being the story teller of the saga t

 

A few comments on a very good conversation i must say.

"Here are my comments for what they're worth:"

Worth very much, like anyone else's.

"Timing: Lucas was quoted as saying that Obi Vs Darth in Ep IV was slow in comparison to the Maul Vs Obi/Qui-Gon battle due to their old age RIGHT AFTER he finished making episode I. As yet they hadnt cast the new bad guy for Episode II and if you watch the documentries they have designs for a female bad jedi and several other options but decide on an elder statesman type and thus cast Christopher Lee. Right there is where the Lucas has messed up - Although in a way I'm glad he did as Dooku is one of my favourite characters. If he had cast a different Dooku"


"You will find that many of the thruths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."
For me, deciding to cast Lee, proves he knows what he's doing. Obviously to him Dooku being old does not in any way interfere with what happens in the older trilogy. Dooku is in action, and training and Ben isn't, he meditates to become a force ghost.

There is probably some truth to this, but i would add this as well. Ben was not trying to win that fight, he was not tapping into the force as yoda did in the PT to augment his body and allow him to fight as if he was much younger than he is. It is likely vader even thought he couldn't any more when he sensed this.


"You can't also have the same argument about Yoda being old because for a start he isnt human, and he's already 900yrs old so clealry his species has a life span that isnt natural by our standards - they may be perfectly fit and healthy until the last 10yrs of their life say. "

here i must totally dissagree. Yoda is geriatric at the time of the PT and all visual indicators prove it. If yoda were a real creature and not the product of a human imagination meant to be interpreted by humans you might be right, in my thinking i must totally dissagree. Yoda walks slowly with a cane, as a person in advanced old age would, his hair is thin and white and thins even more in the next 20 years as his body finishes deteriorating before he joins the force. He does not move as well or as easily in any scene in the PT where he is not in combat and drawing directly on the force to fuel his movements. All of these are clues meant to tell us that he is far past his prime and even ageing out of what's called Young Old Age in our society into avanced old age where we wind up in hospice care. Lucas was i think presenting us with a being who ages at exactly a 1 to 10 ratio vs humans and that is what is shown. At the time of TPM yoda is aproximately 880 years old, and he looks acts and moves like an 88 year old, 20 years later he dies as a man at 90 would who has deteriorated for 2 years. Yoda ages the same way we do, only slower at a 1 to 10 ratio.


in, Ben isn't weaker at dueling for old age, he is because that doesn't intersets him anymore and even then he's plenty capable. Also, in ATOC we do see that fighitng takes a huge effort for old guys, look at Yoda and Dooku's expressions after dueling, they are exhausted. Yoda was very much active in practicing in the PT, not so for the last 20+ years of his life. Furthermore, we do not see him fight so the best conclusion we can make there is that he too might have let himself go in that area. Also, it isn't said that those two couldn't flip out anymore, they just don't, and Vader remarks on it, "your powers are weak," as if he was expecting better form Ben, and he should from what he knew old guys could do.

i agree with this.

"As for Sideous not weilding his sabre prior to the Mace conflict - He has been training Maul and Dooku so I'm pretty sure they werent fighting with broom handles. "

exaclty, makes plenty of sense.

"If you look with unbiased eyes I think you'll see that the CT was made in a certain style with the best training that was available at the time. Lucas was right to try and show the jedi in the prime with super moves and all but to

 

Even though I debate some of Lucas' explanations of the continuity issues of the saga, I'd like to say I still love Star Wars. It is not my intention to come across as some kind of disgruntled ex-fan that is boycotting the saga or anything like that. I wouldn't be wasting my time here if it were otherwise.

To say I'm being vague about the continuity issues is false. We are debating one contradiciton and one contradiction only in this particular thread. The fact that Lucas says that the reason that the duel between Obi Wan and Vader on the Death Star in ANH is slower, less flashy, and quite frankly pathetic is because Obi Wan and Vader are both old and that Vader is more machine than man. Both statements about both characters are very obviously contradicted by what we see on screen not only in the prequals, but also by the other two movies in the CT. Dooku, Yoda, and Sidious are all much older in the prequals than Obi Wan is in ANH. Yet Dooku, Yoda, and Sidious are all at the top of their game. Contradiction number one is pretty clear to me.

You can say that Obi Wan's decrease in power is because of him being in exile and not training/participating in combat etc. But all this is speculation. Lucas never said it was do to the fact that he wasn't fighting or training on Tatooine. In fact, from the evidence in RotS would prove that Obi Wan was recieving training from Qui Gonn. And whether or not he had instances of combat on Tattoine are unknown to anyone but it would not be unheard of.

The fact that Sidious and Yoda were training apprentices means nothing when compared to actual combat. Sparing with someone with less skill than you in order to teach them is not the same as fighting someone in a real fight. Not even close. It is fact before the Clone Wars started, actual combat experience was limited to Knights and Padawans on random missions where combat was needed. Yoda didn't become active in combat until the war came about and he was needed due to the decrease in Jedi forces. The same goes for Sidious if not more so. Sidious was way to busy working in politics and securing his rise to power for any combat experience. Dooku, Yoda, and Sidious were too busy calling shots to be involved in combat situations. Even with this apparent lack of actual combat situations, Dooku, Yoda, and Sidious still appear quite capable.

Even in ESB, Vader is much faster and more impressive. If Lucas' explanation made sense, wouldn't Vader be even slower and less capable because he is older?

The fact is, Lucas doesn't want to question his decisions about the movies and so he makes up excuses as he goes along do justify them even if they don't make sense. Which is the case here.

 

I agree with you 100%.

The argument here is George Lucas's explanations not making sense, not anything in the films themselves.

Another - for another thread maybe - is his explanation for they young Anakin/Hayden ghost at the end of ROTJ. He says it's because that's what Anakin looked like when he "died" in ROTS. To which I say, Lucas has seemingly forgot that Obi-Wan and Yoda were WRONG to say or believe that Anakin had "died", even metaphorically. That was the whole point of ROTJ, that Luke was right that Vader was Anakin Skywalker all along, whereas everyone else - the two veteran Jedi, and the two Sith - were mistaken about Anakin being "dead" forever....



So yes, as someone said a few pages ago, sometimes Lucas's explanations confuses matters.


- TOSCHISTATION

 

Great points! I agree with these statements and have felt this way since this debate started (as early as TPM). Probably the only thing that would change my opinion is if something was stated in the films (in some re-re-remake?). The only things expressed in the films, in my perspective, is that aging/physical handicaps/etc do not have any impact on force sensitivity. If anything, your powers increase ("Darth Vader WILL BECOME more powerful than either of us," implying that experience and long-training grants increased power/abilities). Vader as of ANH has become more powerful than he was in ROTS ("...when last we met I was but the learner, now I am the master"). Granted, Vader mastery is mostly in the dark side (as Obi-Wan points out).

 

Thats exactly my point. CT Vader has become more powerful than RotS Vader due to his mastery of the darkside. There is no reason to believe otherwise. He even appears more powerful on screen. RotS Vader appears more powerful in one way. Lightsaber combat. The only reasons for this are better technology and better choreography period. Suited Vader's force ability is leaps and bounds above RotS Vader from what we see on screen. RotS Vader hardly used force powers at all. This being said, had Anakin not had the little setback on Mustafar, he would've been unrivaled by anyone. As it stands now, he is on level with the top force users in the history of the galaxy. Far from a worthless cripple.

I wish I could see a partial CGI Vader in action. That would be raw.

 

Later on, in the prequels and EU and so on, there is the idea that Anakin/Vader has lost some power after losing much of his body mass.

This was NEVER hinted in the PT movies. Never. It was George Lucas who had hinted this in various interviews. And the novel, "Dark Lord" seemed to hint that Vader's own emotional funk had caused a temporary loss of Force power, not the loss of his limbs. As for the ANH duel, Lucas could have simply stated that the duel was slow due to Alec Guiness and Lucas' own lack of available stunt men for the actor.

 

I like Lee too, though he wasn't given anything substantial enough to chew on, so we all lost out.
But re: the "mess up" because Lee is older, it doesn't have to be IF lightsaber fights don't have a universal spaz requirement!

yes, yes, yes. Goodbye mysterious, powerful, ancient weapon interfacing with the force, and the sublime contest that results....hello Hollywood action yarn Ninja-turds with "power-up" Midichlorians.

thanks for posting that.
The apparently obsessive need to echo and link practically everything from prequels to sequels drives me CRAZY when I watch ROTS. I like the Tarkin scene, but the Wookie stuff in ROTS is so f'ing pointless and cringeworthy, and Yoda knowing Chewie is OUTRAGEOUSLY bad.
Put the sledgehammer down George! They're part of the same universe, yes I knew that already!! OK you made the films and I didn't...did you really need to insert another Tarzan yell to show us "who's boss"? Ughh.

As to what Sweetcurse and DarkSyder say about "no one being able to prove Lucas has contradicted himself" - just in case you guys aren't trying to troll, you should know that's exactly what it looks like. Either that or you both have an aversion to reading.
and Sweetcurse, I'm not impressed by the suggestion that "anyone who criticizes Lucas is unhappy, and anyone who doesn't is happy", any more than I'm impressed by the smiling imbecile with drool running down their face. Lucas did some legendary stuff, and also some vile and stupid stuff. Ignoring the obvious won't change anything, and criticizing something doesn't always mean you hate what you criticize...it can in fact mean you care enough to voice your opinion.

 

Very much agreed. Vader is limited by what's happened to his body, that's for sure, but he's hardly a cripple. The only real change from the PT to the OT is the way he moves. He's less mobile because having to walk around wearing 30 pounds of life support equipment can limit one that way, so OT Vader doesn't go flying around the room the way PT Vader did on Mustafar. But he's powerful in a different sort of way. If nothing else, he's definitely a lot stronger than he was, due both to the mechanical limbs and to the fact that he's probably put on a lot more muscle from having to walk around in the armor. He certainly looks a lot bulkier in the chest and shoulders in the OT. And I also think that becoming older and wiser would probably help one develop a stronger connection with the Force.

I also agree that if there was a change in the way he used the Force before and after he suffered his injuries, it was probably due to the psychological and physical pain he was in. We have no reason to believe that one's body mass or number of cells determines how strong their connection with the Force is. Look at Yoda.

Hmmmmmm, I think I disagree. The fight choreography that was done for Vader in ESB is quite elegant, yet he fights one-handed for most of it. He obviously isn't having trouble controlling the weapon there. But then, in the RotJ duel, we see a type of dueling that's more like what Anakin and Obi-Wan did in RotS: two guys manically whacking at one another, with a few kicks mixed in. There isn't any real progression in the style of the duels from one film to the next. The whole saga is such a mix that it can be very hard to say what each character's intrinsic fighting style looks like. That's what happens when the choreography is done totally differently by different people for different movies. Another limitation of the medium.

 

This could is a good point and you could be correct. I seem to remember only the stance at the moment in the begining of ESB's duel and the feel.

I would agree on the choreography, it should have matched better.

I would also agree about vader, but i think by this point the decission had been made that Vader had at least his legs and right arm replaced with mechancial attachments.

This in my mind well accounted for that initial stance when turning them on, Luke with his legs wide spread in a more balanced stance griping the blade with two hands and Vader more upright holding it in his right.

I have always thought of Luke Skywalker as the biggest, baddest "golden boy" in Star Wars or any other film. Everything goes his way, he's very strong wtih the force so daring to try to control a lightsaber with his limited skill and practice is just as natural to watch for me as it was to believe Vader could do it. Luke wasn't really that good with it though, at no point did it seem to me that Luke could win that fight, still probably my favorite duel.

I guess i always thought that Luke was the most powerful Jedi i would ever see in a film and i still think this, everything Luke did was incredibly ridiculous anyway.

EDIT:

Forgot to mention I'll check that fight out and see if i agree since i can't remember the details very well at the moment.

 

In regards to obi-wan being weaker because he is older, that can make sense because we don't know how powerful dooku, yoda or sidious were when they were younger. It is possible that the three of them were far stronger when they were younger and had lost some of their power from aging.

 

It possible but not likely.

In AotC, Dooku tells Yoda that he has become more powerful than any Jedi, even Yoda himself. This would lead me to believe that Dooku is at his most powerful ever at this point. Everything in the movies lead us to believe that force users get better with age. Just like Shaolin monks in kung fu movies. The most powerful masters in kung fu flicks are the very old ones that do nothing but meditate all day.

Its the same in Star Wars. Being older means more experience and more knowledge of the force which usually means more powerful. The only time age effects power levels in Star Wars is when a force user is very close to death.

 

Yeah, I agree. Palpatine was in pretty good shape well into his old age, as was Dooku. It doesn't seem that Jedi go into retirement. And I wouldn't be surprised if part of the reason Yoda got to be so strong was the great length of time he had to develop to that point.

Obi-Wan seems like he might have gotten weaker as he got older, but that might be a special case because he had to hide out in the desert and couldn't risk being noticed by splashing around too much in the Force, so he might have gotten a little rusty. If his Force skills atrophied, though, he more than made up for it in the wisdom he developed.

Plus, martial arts often work similarly in real life. The best fighters aren't necessarily the youngest people or the biggest people or even the strongest people. Appearances can be deceiving.