CT The "RotJ sucks" meme

I agree. I said pretty much the same thing above:

 

I won't say your arguments are invalid, but I can not see it any other way than George titled the movie "Return of the Jedi" in reference to the Jedi as a group. The Jedi returned by way of Luke (and, I suppose, Anakin). Maybe a fan should just ask GL at a convention one of these days to settle the debate once and for all.

 

I thought he was referring to the Emperor:

Luke: "I am a Jedi, like my father before me."
Emperor: "So be it, JEDI."

Luke asserts that he is a Jedi, and Palpatine confirms it. In that moment, Luke was truly a Jedi Knight.

(For me, it was one of the best moments in the entire saga.)

 

Ah, yes. Palps and Luke had the absolute best dialogue out of the entire saga, IMO. Large credit, of course, goes to Ian McDiarmid and Mark Hamill. They nailed every single one of their lines.

And how many Jedi could have said that they went up against a Sith Master and a Sith apprentice (who used to be the most powerful Jedi Knight, and who happens to be the dude's father), and won? All this while receiving only abbreviated and limited training?

The more I think about, the more awed I am by Luke. And I do think about it. A lot.

 

Fair enough, that is a good point.

That's a fair way to look at it too. Hell, maybe I think it's all three now. I would be interested to hear what GL said, provided he gave a thoughtful answer and not one of his somewhat random or off-the-cuff answers.

 

Yep, this is what I was referring to. Yoda tells Luke he must confront Vader, and only then will he be a Jedi Knight. Luke confronts him and beats him, but stops short of killing him, thus "passing the trials" and becoming a Jedi. As seen in TPM, the council would then grant this status. In Luke's case, a Sith actually does it.

I remember this sequence from when I was a kid, and remember feeling so proud of Luke.

 

Rubbish. That's like saying that Obi-Wan was 'knighted' by Darth Maul, he just had the Jedi Council around to confirm it.

I almost thought this tangent referred to Luke's apprenticeship under Palpatine in Dark Empire, instead it's this gibberish. Knighted by a Sith Lord indeed.

 

Yep, this is what I was referring to. Yoda tells Luke he must confront Vader, and only then will he be a Jedi Knight. Luke confronts him and beats him, but stops short of killing him, thus "passing the trials" and becoming a Jedi. As seen in TPM, the council would then grant this status. In Luke's case, a Sith actually does it.

I remember this sequence from when I was a kid, and remember feeling so proud of Luke.[/quote]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


I just want to re-iterate that the terms you use were not part of the Star Wars parlance
back when when the movie came out.

Not disparaging you at all big T.R. -- just wanted folks to reflect that none of those terms were in the minds of Star Wars fans watching the third film. (Knight was said by Ben Kenobi in the original but I don't think ESB or ROTJ really used it, and the other stuff is really new.)

I think the respect you guys give Luke Skywalker (the man, not the myth) is justified. I just think using the context of only the three OT movies shows more of a do it yourself Jedi hero - bucking Yoda's advice, and even Kenobi's to save the day on his own.

The moment he ignites a green saber on the skiff and goes to work in ROTJ - is the day Luke the Jedi has returned to take names and kick butt -

EDIT - The green saber seen in the PT is also another new thing that puts Luke's uniqueness into a new context that just was not there when we saw him back in the 80's and 90's.

 

It is not like saying Maul knighted Kenobi. The Council knighted Kenobi, but passing the trials made him a knight. It's the same thing as graduating from college. You pass the last final and complete all credits to be an accountant, but you need the school to confer the diploma on you.

In Luke's case, Palpatine served as the council/school conferring the diploma.

I never said that I thought of it in those terms in 83, but due to the PT this is what we have.

We definitely knew Luke was a Jedi in training, which is an apprentice, and we knew he became a Jedi Knight at thhe end of RotJ. In 83 we also knew 2 things. Luke wanted to be a Jedi Knight and Luke said he was a Jedi and The Emperor confirmed it.

My comment of being proud of Luke had to do with the sequence, not that he was knighted by a Sith. Something, as you pointed out, that we didn't know in 83 because 1.) we didn't have the PT and 2.) the word SITH was NEVER used in the OT.

 

Venture to say most folks felt Luke was a Jedi the moment he walked in Jabba's Palace with a swagger ...

And his rocking and rolling on the skiff with his lightsaber reinforced a Jedi was here to play.

And his confidence - the "everyone needs to cool out" towards Solo and the Ewoks just cements a Jedi has Returned to take the saga home.


Great little line from Emperor -- but really not even an ingredient in what made Luke Skywalker a Jedi.

Already knew a Jedi was operating big time after watching the first hour of the movie.

 

A Jedi, yes, but not a Jedi Knight.

Everyone watching the movie heard Yoda tell Luke he wasn't a Jedi (Knight) until he confronted Vader. Everyone saw him confront and defeat Vader. Everyone knew this made him a Jedi (Knight). The Emperor just confirmed it.

 

Ok, this topic got a little confusing for me. But I believe I agree that Palpatine himself did not knight Luke. However, this does not at all detract from the awesomeness factor, because, as I said before, what Jedi could claim that they had to undergo the trial Luke did, and succeeded?

I also wholeheartedly agree with the comments about Luke's new presence in ROTJ. For me, as soon as he choked those Gamorreans, I knew somethin' was about to go down. He had an entirely different aura - still a little cocksure (that salute to Artoo - unf) and still able to throw out the occasional snarky comment to Han - but he had a serenity and a self-confidence unlike what we saw before. Luke was always a very determined individual, but in ROTJ he stepped it up by, like, a thousand levels. The message I got very loud and clear from the first few minutes of the movie was "Do not mess with this dude. You will not win. And he knows it."

 

Agreed. I felt this way in '83. Luke was not a full fledged Jedi until the moment he defeated (and spared) Vader. The Emperor confirmed it when he labelled Luke "Jedi" in that moment. The Emperor, up until that point, had not acknowledged Luke as a Jedi. An example of this is when he examines Luke's lightsaber ans says "A Jedi's weapon"; if you read between the lines, he is implying that Luke is carrying a Jedi's weapon even though Luke is not truly a Jedi himself.

When we say that the Emperor "knighted" Luke, we are speaking very figuratively, and not at all literally. Of course Luke did not kneel before the Emperor and get dubbed "Jedi Knight". However, in a purely figurative sense, Luke's first confirmation as full fledged Jedi (Knight) came by way of verbal confirmation from the Emperor.

 

I disagree.

Luke's new green lightsaber R2 tossed him - this Jedi weapon that Luke created and comes to play with - that is the moment I acknowledge we have a Jedi Knight "returning" to the scene and doing the the things the Jedi Way (Mind trick, force choke, steady bearing, etc ...)

Luke went against the green muppet and even disrespected Ol' Ben - and certainly anyone following this man Luke Skywalker did not need "confirmation" from Palps or his 'bum in a suit father' who he beat down ----- to get the straight dope on this hot shot Jedi who paid the cost in ESB, to be the Boss in ROTJ.

Palps great banter just was that - "So be it Jedi ..." "A Jedi's weapon" - good banter. As a youngster I knew Luke saved his crew on his own terms - and asissted saving the Rebel Alliance in the Throne Room by doing things his own way (bucking Kenobi's sage advice) and taking out the Imperial head honchos -- even if Wedge and Lando were gonna do it the "old fashioned way" as they say.

It was Luke (the man, not the myth) that rolled the dice and settled it once and for all.

 

Too bad Yoda, and the story being told, disagree with you regarding Luke's status as Jedi Knight.

Also, how exactly is a force choke the Jedi Way?

 

Force choke? Well, I guess that goes along with the idea that Luke was establishing a new order to replace an outdated one. That the Old Jedi Order was suffocating under its own rules and (flawed) idealogies is an idea presented in KOTOR, as well as the prequels and the OT and the EU. The whole "use the Force only for defense" thing apparently got old real quick for Luke, who was already determined to do things the way he felt was right, and not by what two old dudes had to say.


When we say that the Emperor "knighted" Luke, we are speaking very figuratively, and not at all literally. Of course Luke did not kneel before the Emperor and get dubbed "Jedi Knight". However, in a purely figurative sense, Luke's first confirmation as full fledged Jedi (Knight) came by way of verbal confirmation from the Emperor.

I wasn't suggesting at all that Palps officially 'knighted' Luke. I was saying that I don't think he had anything to do with establishing Luke as a Jedi in and of his own words. Again, Luke was sort of bucking the old ways as he went along, so how and when he precisely became a Jedi Knight is absolutely debatable. I prefer to think that Luke believed he became a Jedi (as he understood the term and all that it stood for) when he resisted the Dark Side and redeemed his father. This moment happens to coincide with Palpatine's declaration of Luke to be a Jedi, and that declaration was simply, IMO, his recognition that Luke was not going to be turned, and he was drawing the line in the sand, so to speak, because by calling Luke a Jedi, Palpatine was placing them officially on opposite sides of the battle.
Luke didn't need anyone to call him a Jedi. He knew what he was. In fact, Luke himself could be said to 'confer the diploma' since he said it first: "I am a Jedi, like my father before me."
Palpatine was simply throwing Luke's words back at him. More psychological manipulation and contempt from a man who was a master at it.

 

It's not. Luke's use of the technique we'd only seen used previously by Darth Vader was a deliberate indication of his straying too close to the Dark Side, just as his new outfit was meant to look 'Vader-esque', as GL told Mark Hamill in 1982. The balancing act between light & dark that Luke performs through ROTJ reaches its peak when he hacks off Vader's mechanical hand and looks at his own. Then he chooses to renounce the Dark Side completely, something his father was unable or unwilling to do.

And no, Luke's use of Vader's Force Choke has zero to do with him taking the Jedi Order on some sort of a new path, in either the three film OT context, or the six-film Saga context. It's a bog-standard parallel. Luke throwing his saber away after refusing to submit to the Dark Side clearly indicates that he was sticking to the Jedi way.

 

Actually, it just occurred to me - Luke 'knights' himself, and quite correctly. The Emperor just spits his new title back at him in contempt.

In ROTJ, Luke says "I am a Jedi" twice. The first time he says it, he's wrong, the second time he's right, & knows it.

The first time is with Yoda - "Then... I am a Jedi" - but Yoda contradicts him. He's completed his training, he's learned all he needs to, but he still isn't a Jedi yet, there's unresolved issues with his father & the temptation of the Dark Side nipping at his heels.

The second time, however, Luke has not only confronted his father, he's managed to reject the philosophy which destroyed him. He doesn't need a ceremony or confirmation from a senior Jedi to tell him, he's completed his final trials, everything there is about being a Jedi is complete within him, & so he states with utter confidence to the Emperor, "I am a Jedi, like my father before me." That Palps is prepared to acknowledge this fact makes no difference at all.

 

Totally agreed with Nub on the above two posts.

 

Yes, absolutely, Luke became a Jedi (Knight) at the moment he defeated his father and resisted falling to the dark side (and uttered his proclamation: "I am a Jedi, like my father before me."). No argument there. And I agree that the Emperor's reply, no matter what he decided to say, would not have changed that fact.

However, the first confirmation of his status by another Force user "in the know" was from the DLOS. The way I see it, the Emperor was not simply spitting the foul word "Jedi" back at Luke as a rebuke. He believed and understood that Luke was truly a Jedi in that moment. He saw the change in Luke, and realized there was no more chance to turn him.

To paraphrase his reply, he was saying, "Yes, you may be a Jedi Knight now, you little puke, but neverthless, you will die." It was not, "Ooooh, a Jedi, huh? Believe that if you must, you little puke, but now you will die anyway."

 

^yep

He actually says it 3 times, the first via hologram to Jabba.

 

Well, he actually says, "I am Luke Skywalker, Jedi Knight and friend to Captain Solo." Much the same thing, but it's debatable whether or not he's completely convinced himself, or if he's just trying to intimidate Jabba. Luke's almost shocked reaction to Yoda saying he needs no more training - "Then I am a Jedi" - would suggest the latter.

 

And no, Luke's use of Vader's Force Choke has zero to do with him taking the Jedi Order on some sort of a new path, in either the three film OT context, or the six-film Saga context. It's a bog-standard parallel. Luke throwing his saber away after refusing to submit to the Dark Side clearly indicates that he was sticking to the Jedi way.

I've always thought the idea of certain uses of the Force being purely Light or Dark to be completely ludicrous. How is choking someone worse than slicing him in half with a lightsaber? The motive was the same - Luke was trying to save his friends' lives.
I do agree that Luke was uncertain of his status all the way until the battle with Vader, when he renounced the Dark Side and claimed to be a Jedi. And if you look at the EU (which, if you don't want to, it's, you know, understandable) Luke still struggles with understanding what's "truly" the Jedi way for many years, which puts that scene on the DSII in a slightly different light: Luke knew the major differences between right and wrong, light and dark. He finally knew enough to, at that moment, declare that he was a Jedi, knowing it was the absolute truth. It's all the little details - the philosophy - of being a Jedi that bogged him down later on.

I knew when watching the movie that Luke was a different sort of Jedi than Ben or Yoda. The black clothes, the confident and casual use of his power - but I never doubted his adherence to the Light Side. GL was really going for some sort of parallel between Vader and Luke, but it worked only in the most superficial manner for me. There was not a series of temptations for Luke, indicating that he was balancing on a tightrope between Jedi and Sith, like there was with Anakin (as for Bespin, I thought it was obvious that Yoda didn't want Luke to go because he wasn't prepared to hear the truth about his father - Luke's refusal to abandon his friends ended up not at all being a temptation to fall to the dark side, since Luke had zero interest in joining his father. I still think Yoda was dumb to try to stop Luke from going. Who in the world would abandon his friends like that? Certainly not Luke.) There was just the big test with Palpatine. Until that point, Luke had been firmly committed to the right causes and motives. The battle of wills with Palpatine was the first and only time that I saw Luke truly waver.

 

Why is the question of Light or Dark assumed to be a question of "what is worse"?

 

Okay, I'll rephrase. How is choking someone wrong, while slicing him in half with a lightsaber is right?

You're still taking a life. The method has nothing to do with whether its Light or Dark (unless we're talking about torturing someone to death, taking pleasure in another's pain). If someone disagrees, please explain to me, because I have never understood the argument that one way of killing is inherently Dark while another way is Light.