From a Certain Point of View - Obi-Wan Discussion Thread - Evil Obi Challenge!

Lovely pic sis! *swoon*

Kidan - You raise some interesting points.

All the Jedi are intrinsically attached to the Jedi

I'd agree with this - in, I think, the ROTS novel (I might be wrong) - Obi-wan claims he'd strike down Yoda if need be and Yoda confirms he'd do the same to Obi-Wan. Yet in AOTC (film) Dooku escapes becuase Yoda saves Obi and Ani from being crushed by a pillar. Not that I didn't want him to! But part of me always thinks wouldn't he have been more likely to sacrifice them for the greater good. For a chance to stop Dooku?

The problem is that they were attached to the wrong things. The emotional attachments, the familial attachments, the attachments to neighbors, these are needed to remind them just what it means to be human per se. Otherwise they are nothing more than automaton, lording over those without the force.

Although some Jedi did have these attachments - Qui and Tahri, Obi and Siri, Anakin and Padme...the problem was having to deny or hide these attachments.

 

According to this article at the official site, there's a paperback omnibus (Legacy of the Jedi and Secrets of the Jedi) coming out in May that includes a new story about Obi-Wan on . . . um, a certain planet that I won't name for fear of spoiling people.

- lazy

 

Darn, I already have the other 2 books... I'm not buying the collection just to get the third story.

 

Wonderful start to an old thread.

I think the difference in Obi-Wan and Anakin as Jedi came down to how they dealt with the relationships in their lives. Ultimately Anakin was attached to many of the things he held dear, and he clung to those attachments as a life line at times. And while Obi-Wan treasured his relationship with Qui-Gon and Anakin, he was able to release any ties that would restrict his ability to do the Force's bidding when need be. Ultimately Obi-Wan was even able to let go of his attachment to his life in order to be one with the Force and help further the goal to end Sidious' rule as Emperor, to defeat the Sith.

 

I look at it as it's not attachments that are the problen, but possesive attachments. It wasn't that Anakin loved Padme that was the problem, it was that he wanted to posses her. Even in real life it is not good to be possesive of things you love.


There is a neat little part in the ROTS novel where Obi-Wan is explaining why he thinks it's a bad idea to tell Anakin to 'spy' on Palps. He tells of how Yoda is one of his first memories and how close he feels to the old master, but if his death meant sucess on a mission, he wouldn't hesitate to let it happen. I'm paraphrazing and not saying it as well as the book does.

But there are a lost of inconsistancys in the movies and the books too. Just like the part of AOTC that Kes was talking about, Yoda keeping Obi and Ani from being crushed instead of getting Dooku - -

I also like the part of the ROTS book that says Mace has a secret love of his own, Mace loves the Republic. In an odd way, that may have led to his failure.

 

I have them too. Why can't they sell them seperatly??

 

Those darn bunnies!

[image=http://www.qui-gonline.org/diversions/qtbitingbun.jpg]

Actually I recommend you all take it look at this site

http://www.qui-gonline.org/diversions/toons1.htm

- some of them are very funny!

 

Okay, Kestrel, that's classic. My bunnies just need to chiiiiill until DRL has been pacified.

 

Kes that was a provoking site- I'll need to visit that when i'm stumped for bunnies!

With all this talk of books I feel compelled to up and 'fess what a deprived EUer I am I've never read any of the books inc ROTS *looks around furtively to see if Kes can hear!*, so your news lazy was a godsend- its definately a place to start for me, since I have to say I was stuck on where I should start! Though I'm sure its much more annoying for the rest of you!

I'd have to agree with jodiwent, the whole story is littered with inconstancies eg leia having 'memories' of a mother who died in childbirth! Sorry to rant people, its just George scrapping Padme's role has been a pet peeve of mine since ROTS! I definately wanted to see Rebel Padme and I'll admit I had been hopeful to see her and obi interact after the twins' birth, as friends mind, I'm not a big fan of obidala!

 

That is so cute! Tons of little plot bunnies!

 

There is an entry for it on amazon at:

Legacy

Hmmmm, I can't seem to get the link code to work but you can look it up.

$7.99 and almost 450 pages in paperback. If there's over 100 pages of new material I'll think about getting it since the price is just low enough to catch my interest. But I'm annoyed at having to get two others that I already have. They really know their market I guess.

Stella_RippleYou're not alone on not being up on the EU. I'm mostly EU-challenged. The JA series are the only EU books I've read consistently.

I read Timothy Zahn's Thrawn trilogy and while I thought the writing was good (he had the movie characters just perfect) I wasn't interested in any of his OCs and the whole 'things that block the Force' concept drives me nuts. These are the books that are on everybody's EU-must-read list, so I knew that EU would never be a priority if I was only lukewarm on them.

I read some early 90's EU because I liked the the authors (Barbara Hambly and Vonda McIntyre) that I got at a remaindered bookstore (cheap).

Splinter of the Mind's Eye because back in 1978 I was ravenous for anything Star Wars. Yesh, I saw the Holiday Special when it first aired. I think I still have traumatic shock from that.

Cloak of Deception was the only EU adult paperback that had much Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon in it.

I, Jedi, becuase I was looking for EU Jedi stuff (and that's all a little dated since it was written before the prequels); Stackpole's OCs were more interesting to me, but he wrote Luke a bit wimpier than I like.

The only NJO book I read was the last one The Unifying Force, again, looking for Jedi stuff; I feel like I got the gist of the series and haven't gone to look for any of the others.

And I haven't read any of the movie novelizations since the first one back in 1977.

Oh, and I do have the limited Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan comics that came out. They were fun.

 

As for Obi in the EU, the only ones that really focus on him are the Jedi Quest and Jedi Apprentice series. I like them a lot and I think they've got some really got stuff, but sometimes the characterization makes me do this-- .

I agree with what was said above, that it wasn't that Obi-Wan didn't have attachments. It was just that he wasn't possessive of them, and he was able to let them go. He strikes me as being too emotional and sensitive of a person deep inside to not have attachments at all, but he has a well-balanced personality in most ways, more well-balanced than, say, Anakin, and he is too devoted a Jedi to call that into question.

 

Count me in along with those who haven't read much EU (well, since HS ten years ago...)

What I tend to do is use the broader EU distinctions (such as locations of important planets..i.e. Ilum) in my stories, just to stay somewhat in the EU canon, but otherwise just go with it.

I honestly haven't read any EU Obi-Wan, so can't comment on the characterizations. I know he's a hard one to pin down in my writing, and one of the easiest to go 'ah ha! out of character!' when I'm reading him.

So I can see where EU authors might have the same problem.

Pyxelle



....Heisenberg may have slept here....zzzzzzz.

EDIT: I forgot to mention I finished my first SW vignette EVER for this challenge! Posted in the story thread, so tell me what you think!

 

Yay, I'm not alone!
Thanks ardavenport That does help, having a shortened version of the must-read books--and those comics sound very cool! Wish I'd come across them!
I will now disgrace myself even further by admitting that I haven't read any SW books (asides from one or two Young Jedi(?) books and AOTC- the only ones my library has )
My top priority now- grab ROTS!!

I have to say when I stumbled onto the joy that is JA- and obi centric fics!!- last July, I really wanted to read the Jude Watson stuff, but since then I kept finding more black-and-white takes on obi and qui that they seem to have spawned(the infamous abused and buckethead pair!) I have to say I'm put off and don't really want to spoil my idea of the characters. Plus I was reading a few excerpts of the JA stuff and then some excerpts on our awards threads...and would you believe, I think the boards are spoiling us?

Oops, Sorry, I think I may have gone a leetle off topic there! But you know its only b/c you guys are doing such a great job (and stealing all the good points before I write them, might I add! ) with the obi's attachments *gives Leona and Kes a moment * issue. I think Sakura put it much better than I could have! But I'll just throw out a little discussion point here: do you think Obi's control on his attachments is leading him to miss out on certain things?
I'd love to hear what you all think!


EDIT: I do believe I forgot to thank QuentinGeorge for the lovely wookiepedia link- that was an awesome site!

 

*Delurks*

Well, I don't know if anyone's already mentioned it, as I've only skimmed through all the previous posts and not actually read them, but the ROTS book is way awesome and a great place to go for Obi characterization. The author writes in a unique format, giving insight into all the characters. There's tons of different point of views and such.

Ok, that's all I had to say. I think the rest of you have got pretty much everything else covered. I'll go back to lurking.

Freyja

 

Well, seeing that Obi-Wan spends 20 years alone (mostly) in a burning desert for the sake of Jedi duty, yes I think his control over his attachments leads him to miss a few things in life. Basically, his attachment to the Jedi Order came before anything else.

 

I think SakuraTsukikage said it best when she said: it wasn't that Obi-Wan didn't have attachments. It was just that he wasn't possessive of them, and he was able to let them go... he has a well-balanced personality in most ways, more well-balanced than, say, Anakin.

I also believe that Obi-Wan was more emotionally... mature than Anakin when it came to attachments. He had his attachments to Qui-Gon, Yoda, the Order, and especially to Anakin but he was able to realize that all attachments will be broken through one mean or another. This, I see, is a result of his attachment to Qui-Gon. I think his experience when Qui-Gon was struck down might have helped to shape his view on attachment. Here's my reasoning: Qui-Gon, the man who was like a father to him, the Master he is emotionally attached to, is struck down in front of him. The shattering of this attachment drives him to seek vengeance on the Sith who caused this break, opening him up to the Dark Side, causing him to be almost defeated. He wins, but I imagine this rattles him, this drawing upon the Dark Side. I would think that this would teach a lesson in what attachments can do when not handled with care, perhaps truly driving home what the Jedi teach about attachments. He then applies this newfound knowledge when it comes to other attachments he has formed/will form. Perhaps this seems a bit cold and clinical, but I think Obi-Wan, as one who has always been leary of the Darkness within him (esp. from his early Padawan days) would be keen on not seeing it repeat. Anakin, unfortunately, did not have the same upbringing that Obi-Wan did, and, when confronted with a similar situation, did not learn the same lesson.

Hmm, an interesting conundrum, especially in regards to Anakin. It's possible that Obi-Wan was too attached to Anakin (I never said Obi was successful in controlling all of his attachments to perfection). Perhaps Obi-Wan missed out on some of the warning signs of Anakin's emotional dissolve because he cared too much for his "brother." I can't remember if it's canon or if I've been reading too many RotS fics lately, but didn't Obi-Wan turn a blind eye on Anakin's attachment to Padme because he knew it brought Ani happiness? If true, I'd say that is a sign of not having enough control on an attachment.

 

Hmm, an interesting conundrum, especially in regards to Anakin. It's possible that Obi-Wan was too attached to Anakin (I never said Obi was successful in controlling all of his attachments to perfection). Perhaps Obi-Wan missed out on some of the warning signs of Anakin's emotional dissolve because he cared too much for his "brother." I can't remember if it's canon or if I've been reading too many RotS fics lately, but didn't Obi-Wan turn a blind eye on Anakin's attachment to Padme because he knew it brought Ani happiness? If true, I'd say that is a sign of not having enough control on an attachment.

I totally agree with you there. Obi-Wan's attachment to Anakin seems to be the big, life-defining one, and maybe he was a little too close, a little too attached to the situation to see, as you say, the warning signs. And even if the turning a blind eye to Padme isn't canon, it's implied in the movies (the man isn't stupid, after all), and HEAVILY implied in the RotS novelization.

 

I suppose Obi-Wan was blinded by the war (as all Jedi were at the time) when it came to Anakin. So, he likely made excuses to himself that he wouldn't say confront Anakin about Padme until after the war was over. They seemed to be expecting that they would win it.

Obi-Wan did say Anakin was like a brother to him when Yoda told him he had to go after him. That was Obi-Wan's hardest moment, but he let of of his attachment to Anakin.

I suppose one thing that Obi-Wan feels guilty about, when he finally tells Luke about Vader, is the fact that he knew about Padme and didn't say anything until it was far too late, and in the end, he used Padme to get to Anakin, too.

 

It's in the ROTS book and since Lucas read it over very carefully, I'd have to say canon.

 

I'd second the "blind eye" Obi-Wan gave to Anakin regarding it. (I'd third it, but I'm not sure you can 'third' anything.)

Implied or not, I think Obi-Wan couldn't of help but notice. Frankly, I'd like to think that he isn't quite that stupid. His character is very intelligent, he has an honest interest in Anakin's well-being, and to say that he doesn't realize that Anakin is attached to Padme would make him lose something. However, obviously he doesn't know to what extent Anakin's involvement goes. (marriage)

Also, I think that Obi staying on Tatooine for twenty years isn't all due to his vows to the Jedi Order. Luke is also the son of the man he considered brother...it would make sense that Obi-Wan had some feelings for Luke that went beyond duty because of that. In least, IMHO.

 

Oh. It just occured to me that Lucas fulfilled that early draft or novelization or whatever it was (in his own way) about Obi-Wan and Owen being brothers.

Yeah, I think that one of Obi-Wan's biggest regrets is that he didn't say something about Padme when he knew that something was going on, presumably because the war was going on. Anakin would have left the Order if the Council had forced him to make a choice and Obi-Wan would have known that. Anakin easily might have gone to the Dark Side then. Obi-Wan was probably waiting for that 'right time' to do it, so he could keep Anakin with the Jedi. But it turned into a disaster anyway, and Obi-Wan likely wonders if he should have confronted Anakin early about it after all.

Obi-Wan should know that the whole Jedi Order missed that Palpatine was a Sith; he wasn't alone with failing to see that, but Obi-Wan was the one person who could really see what was going on with Anakin.

 

Thanks dianethx! It's been a while since I've seen and read RotS so I wasn't sure I was making it up after reading so many fics lately. And Pyxelle, I agree with you when you said: Frankly, I'd like to think that he isn't quite that stupid. His character is very intelligent, he has an honest interest in Anakin's well-being, and to say that he doesn't realize that Anakin is attached to Padme would make him lose something. I didn't mean to imply that Obi-Wan wasn't aware of it, I heartily agree that Obi-Wan wasn't that stupid. It was more of a question of whether or not it was another plot point not addressed by Lucas.

This raises another question. Would Obi-Wan have gone to the Council if he found out about Anakin's marriage to Padme? How would Obi-Wan's attachment play into this situation? Was he attached enough to Anakin to have kept quiet about it? Or was he more attached to the Jedi Code, as Anakin believed?

 

If Obi-Wan were confronted with the knowledge of Anakin's marriage, he would have gone to the Council. But once he suspected that something was going on between Anakin and Padme and then decided not to confront Anakin with it until after the war, Obi-Wan would have done everything he could to NOT know more. He'd never try to find Anakin when he was supposed to be in his room, he might even make sure that no one else tried to find Anakin when he might be with Padme.

This wouldn't have been hard to do. The war started as soon as their marriage, so most of the time Anakin was away; they hardly ever got to see each other. Obi-Wan might not have realized it at first; it could have been awhile before he suspected, but he probably guessed that it started after Genosis.

 

*Pops my head in late*

Good start on the new Obi-Wan thread.