I've just seen Matrix Reloaded and...

One of my problems was I saw it with three women. They didn't refresh their memory with Matrix I before we went. So they were lost. I've seen Matrix many times and I was lost quite a bit too tho. But after the movie there was really nobody to talk to about it. Too many damn women.

OK. But at the end he said that he had been there 6 times before... and the entire room was filled with screens of him saying diff. things during these 6 other encouters. How can the same exact person have been there 6 times and not know it. Maybe he never escaped the Matrix till the 6th/7th or last time which is the first movie?? Maybe 6 other times he took the other pill and returned to la-la-land. And they started the whole process all over again. BUT the Matrix would of had to played a game on him making him think he escaped and stuff. Kinda like a weird Star Trek holodeck episode. You never know what is real or not real. BUT this explanation just raises even more questions.

I remember that. In the first one they talked about how he wasn't the first, and how he was actually the least impressive of the lot or something. They really boosted his confidence. So what happened to him? the first? He was not killed but just caught by the machines and put back into the Matrix, and for what purpose? to study or something?

So you're saying... there were 6 other Neo's, and they chose to allow Zion to be destroyed. And it literally physically got destroyed 6 times and some how they got 1/4 million more people out and re-built Zion with all that technology... 7 more times?? This doesn't explain why Morph is so convinced of Neo. Where does he get his info? The Oracle nor anybody else it seems believes in him. How could the Matrix be destroyed without killing all the humans anyway? They could have so many self-destructs it would be impossible to win... even if they could beat the machines in a war... IF they could. THIS is what I thought Reloaded was all about.. from the inside they could shut-down all the machines b/c physically not only could they not win but they machines would just kill everybody.

As far as CG goes... I don't get it. I think it's all great. I think some people who like to analyze cgi are being too picky even for their own ability to pick out cgi. There's nothing that bad in this film. I think we're being a little to nitpicky. I guess we all practice being nitpicky in this forum all the time with one another that we've gotten too good at it.. or at least we think we're good at it.

 

This movie is so confusing. I'm not even sure I'm sure of what I'm saying.

What I meant from my previous post was that, it's all been an endless loop so far. Zion was only destroyed in the Matrix six times before. Everyone is still trapped in the Matrix, maybe nobody has ever "really" escaped? Maybe Zion, the war, the chosen one, everything is completely made up.

Everyone before 'this' Neo let Zion be destroyed to save the rest of mankind, and then it starts all over again?

EDIT: Didn't they say that the Matrix couldn't control or handle choice? All the other (preveous Neo's) choose the same thing, maybe he'll choose the other path and halt the matrix (program). One other thing, Neo was there six other times before because he never "really" left the Matrix in the first place (they're all still trapped inside, Zion too).

I think I'm going to see it again....my head hurts...

Knight9703

 

Eh?

Thanks for clearing that up for me. Now I'm more confused than ever. I don't see how these other guys can be so sure of what they are talking about.

 

Why do people think that Neo has been there five times before? He's not the sixth Neo, he's the first Neo.. the fifth One, but the first Neo.. it's like Bob, Jim, Billy, Mike, Dave, and Neo. People seem to think that it's always been Neo going through this.. it's not, it's always been a different person, this time it just happened that the anomoly manifested itself in Neo. Pure chance. It helps having conversed with friends about the film, especially the conversation with the Architect, and actually reading it instead of just trying to catch it all in the theatre.. I now have a pretty good idea of what Neo is, and why he is.

I still think the real world is the real world.. but we won't know for sure until the third film. If they were still in a different "form" of the Matrix, then I don't think the Agents would be continually dispatched to kill them, or that they would bother continually upgrading the Agent programs (which, incidentally, is what I think the Twins are.. older versions of the Agent program, perhaps from a couple anomolies ago).

I'm trying not to speculate too much about the third film.. we only have six months to wait, that ain't so bad. I'll spend those six months figuring out everything that happened in "Reloaded".. hehe.

 

If you didn't get the Architect's speech here it is put simply:

the first Matrix was paradise, but because of free will humans rejected it. So they decided to build a world that was based around the real world. This worked much better, however 1% of the population was still able to see through it. At the same time every 100 years or so a person would be born with the ability to see the code and change it at will (maybe it's human evolution or whatever). They would escape the Matrix and build Zion. The Architect knew his system wasn't perfect and there would always be people who could escape the Matrix, so he let it happen.
But when Zion gets too powerful that's when he has to destroy it, and destroy the 'One'. The Matrix is reset, and the whole process starts again.

This is now the 6th time.

 

I concur with Deagle_Raa. That's what I got out of it.

 

Oh... that makes alot of sense. Thanks for explaining it that way. That's why they're now like... what do we do now? But he hasn't really told Morph all of this yet except that everything he believes in is a lie. What a crush that must be. Interesting way of explaining it, thanks. Damn, I think I wanna see it again.

I wonder what the end of the movie is all about. He's developing real world powers some how.. or it's a clue that we still haven't seen the real world yet.. that he's still in the Matrix the entire time.

 

actually, there was one piece of info you left out... the Oracle was the one that 'perfected' the system that is employed... so in a sense, she's not the ally the first movie makes her out to be...

she pretends to ally herself with the ones that can see the truth for no other reason than to lead them down the path that will maintain the stability of the system... that path is the fall of Zion...

Darksteps...

 

Actually, that's still up in the air.. When the Architect mentions it, Neo replies with "The Oracle", to which the Architect replies "Please...". Which could mean one of two things.. either the Architect didn't like his counterpart referred to as an oracle, or that Neo was way off in his assumption, and that the Oracle isn't the "mother" of the Matrix. Which begs the question of who it is.. the only other program female we've seen is Persephone. But knowing the Wachowski's, it's probably someone like Trinity or something.. hehe.

 

Well.. if all of this is true then I still think they really messed up on this movie. I just can't see how most people will get all of this. I don't know if the movie will have staying power. Only the true fans will go back. It's just too confusing for the average person... and it relies VERY heavily on the previous movie which some people still haven't seen and even more just haven't seen it in awhile. Most movies like Star Wars you can jump into the middle of it and understand.

 

It's funny that you say that... Have you seen the new commercial... It basically says that you need to see this movie 3 times!!! $$$... the W. Bros "apparantly" wrote this as a trilogy from day one, and coming from the "comic world" of continuity, they not just want people to come back to see it multiple times... they expect it. They seem to be hoping that people see it once and go "what just happened" then watch the first again just before seeing it a second time... this seems to be working from what I can tell. I know many people at school who have already seen it twice and plan to go again. Many of them are not "fan-boys (and girls)" they were either just so stunned by the visuals that they missed the finer points of the story, or they just didn't get it. I guess they just felt like it needed a second viewing. I like movies like this... why would you ever see a sequal without watching the first one before-hand?

 

the the fact that it has generated so much debate and controversy and theories etc indicates to me it's going to be a movie remembered far longer than, say, spiderman or xmen.
The problem with a trilogy like this is that it leaves you hanging without a proper conclusion, like Empire Strikes Back. At least we only have to wait months rather than years for the end.

 

I'm not at all surprised at how many people "don't get it."

So many did see it (lookin at the numbers) and a lot are used to and enjoy the mindless waste normally coming out of Hollywood these days. Makes perfect sense.....

 

Sweet Jesus! I have not seen the movie yet and I have read this entire thread. I love movies like this and I am a huge fan of the first one, but it really seems like it gets mucher deeper than I thought from just seeing the first one. We are going this weekend to see it and I think readin gall this will hopefully make me understand it more.

I think people are so used to movies being pumped out with little thought needed to understand, it is hard for them to comprehend stuff they have to think about. I love that kinda stuff.

I cant wait to see this movie...

 

I also haven´t seen it yet, but reading this makes it more and more uninteresting. So I want to see it without knowing anything / too much. Then read what others think...
Then - if I haven´t understood/seen some things - see it a second time.

This makes much more sense I think.

I´ve seen so much movies which were boring -only because I already knew too much (making ofs, magazines...)

 

or it's a clue that we still haven't seen the real world yet.. that he's still in the Matrix the entire time.

I think it's obvious that this is where they're going with it. Otherwise how could the Oracle know about dreams and events occurring in the "real world"? Or Neo have premonitions about what was yet to come within the Matrix?

Which disappoints me. It's been done.

M. Scott

 

hmmm.interesting. having seen the film i came up with this theory.

The mention of 6 other encounters and 6 other Zions made me realize, how many time did they create the matrix before they came up with the one MATRIX in the the film? maybe, just maybe, all this has happened before, everything that is goign to happen already has, and then again, it hasnt quite yet.

Then another thing hit me, if the other 6 Matrix's have been destroyed, hten what remains..........this all stemmed form the final 10 mins, Neo suddenly able to stop the machienes in the real world? I suddenly had flash backs to the Video Wall, and the shots of the Nuke tests.......coudl they actually be the war of the machienes? in that case, could the war that happened in the real world actaully be a war within the MATRIX (ala, what if the "real world" wasnt as real as they believed, a MATRIX inside the MATRIX?

anyways, this is just my thought on the confusing aspect of the film in my mind.

(this is only a theory, and makes very little sense)

 

Where are people getting the idea there have been six Matrices? There have been three.. the first two crashed because of non-acceptance by the humans jacked into it.. the third one has been stable for centuries, and all six Ones have existed within this ONE Matrix. The Matrix is NOT reset every time the One shows up.. this would kill everyone connected to it, some eight billion people.

When Neo visited the Source, he left a bit of himself in there.. he's "split" now.. as the Oracle puts it, he's "trapped between your world and ours". Which would indicate that the real world is indeed the real world, and that Neo maintains a connection of sorts with the machines' mainframe, giving him limited control over the machines in the real world (this means he can affect the machines, but he can't fly or stop bullets or anything). This is explained in the game.

 

I really should stop reading this thread but I can stop myself. I really need to go this movie. Going Sunday...

 

kinda reminds me of that Trek Next-Gen Episode "Ship in a Bottle"

 

Wow. I've really missed out on this thread.

I got to see the movie on Friday last week.
Loved the action. Chase scenes. Some of the martial arts seemed overdone (did we really need the fight with oracle's body gaurd?)
Trinity just rocks, and I kinda had a soft spot for the little key maker guy.
Really liked the concept of those keys too.
Truck roof fight was tension filled, since I was sure Morph was gonna loose it several times.
Loved the "Gotcha!" from Niobe!
Trinity on the motorbike was amazing!

Definitely liked it. Still do. But lots of plot holes are starting to creep into my mind.

The holes actually start in Matrix 1:
- Why people for batteries? Why not .... Cows?
- Why do they need an imaginary world? It's not like they're exercising their muscles more by having a dream in jar.
- Why recreate the '90s, where people learn to be programmers and get any insite at all into computer/machine code. Why not put everyone in the time of the Pharohs or ancient Rome or something, where no one can access a computer and learn about code???

Clearly the premise (and purpose) of this movie is to breakdown all the beliefs established in the first. We leave the first movie thinking Neo is THE one, and he supermans off to save man kind.
Now we find that this whole senario is simple part of a FOR...NEXT loop that keeps the matrix in check. Zion has been built and destroyed 6 times so far (in the Enter the Matrix video game we learn that Zion lasted only 72 hours during the last cycle. Is that since the Machines break in, or is that in Machine time from creation to destruction???) After seeing RELOADED we all (well most of us anyway) are dying to find out what Neo's choices will really mean for mankind. Totally opens the door for virtually anything to happen in the final chapter.
I could have done without a lot of the techno-babble, but there was one theme I was very interested in, and it actually started in the first movie: CHOICE. Does it really exist?
In the first movie, the Oracle puzzles Neo with the "did you knock down the vase by accident or because I said it was OK about the vase before you broke it?" line. The french program and Architect really go on about it this time around.

Anyway...
It seems that the "outside" world in these movies is actually still in the Matrix (or at least A matrix)
Some clues (some already mentioned...)
- The spoon in the first movie was a metaphore "THERE IS NO SPOON"
- The Oracle knows about Neo's dreams, even though he has them outside of the Matrix.
- Smith can now effect the outside world???
- Neo has powers on the outside.

I think there were a few others, but those are the more obvious ones.

Guess that's all for me.
Gotta see the movie again soon, just to...

Have fun!

 

- Why people for batteries? Why not .... Cows?
After people built AI, they tried to destroy it. Machines are getting back at people. Pure simple revenge.

- Why do they need an imaginary world? It's not like they're exercising their muscles more by having a dream in jar.
They're exercising their brains causing chemical changes in the body that causes changes in body heat that the machines use for energy.

- Why recreate the '90s, where people learn to be programmers and get any insite at all into computer/machine code. Why not put everyone in the time of the Pharohs or ancient Rome or something, where no one can access a computer and learn about code???
Ok, most likely setting it today is for audiences. But think about this: 7 billion people in the world today compared to half that number 2 thousand years ago. If i were a machines and wanted to get more energy, i'd make more people.

 

Though it would kind of suck if the real world were another Matrix, it does make sense. Maybe in this one when the orphan gives the spoon to Neo through that one guy, maybe it's trying to tell Neo that the real world isn't real either. And about the Oracle knowing he's not sleeping, etc. Oh man, now I can't wait.

 

There's not 8 billion cows. People live alot longer. Maybe revenge too.

I think keeping the mind going is very important to the body's health. It's like you have to dream or your mind will collapse.

I think maybe alot of this has to do with where the people came from to start off with. They had to recreate their world and then I guess they could control their advancement.. slow it down. SO the Matrix had to start off with the 90's b/c I guess that's when the war started. BUT this is a good question still. They have not addressed it in the story yet. I can poke alot of holes like this in Star Wars, Terminator, etc. too.

I don't entirely buy my explanation for this a 100% but I don't buy the one about the # of people that lived back then either. I think they could have as many people as they want to live during any period they want. But remember... 8 billion people... how many did they start off with?? There are people in other places. It's not just New York. There's good battery potential in Africa, middle east, etc. So I'm sure the Matrix encapsulates the entire world yes. Probably alot easier to control some other people than Americans.

 

"Probably alot easier to control some other people than Americans."

What do you mean by that?

But getting back at the number of Matrices (that would be the plural, wouldn't it?), I think it were 5, that were reset... right? And did I get it right, that each time the Matrix got reset, information on the people who were able to "escape" the Matrix was built into the code for the next Matrix, to make it a "safer system", which would be harder to escape from? OK, this would be redundant if the "real world" of the movie is inside the Matrix too...

Oh man, I've gotta see it again...