Jedi - Overpowered?

I admit that none of my own RPGs have advanced past the 12th level character-wise yet, but it seems to me that Force-sensitive characters (especially Jedi) are far too versatile, and powerful.

Jedi:

-Better at fighting than a Soldier
-More convincing than a charismatic Noble (Affect Mind, Friendship)
-More versatile than a Fringer (Force skills)
-Stronger use of Force Points.

It's really kind of disheartening. I like being non-force using classes, probably because my friends always play Force classes. I usually play Soldier/Noble/Fringer and eventually work my way to Bounty Hunter/Elite Soldier/Officer. It's frustrating because my Jedi friends always seem to be as good or better than me at whatever I choose to specialize in, as well as being excellent at everyone else. Why bother with a charismatic Noble/Officer, if a Jedi is even better at diplomatic maneuvers?

And don't go telling me that Jedi have to be so careful with their powers that it balances out. Not a chance. I've played a Jedi character once, everything had a simple Force solution. It's REALLY disheartening. My Soldier (a slugthrower user) right now is excellent at Treat Injury. Big deal, my force-using pals can just use Heal Self or Heal Another. Hoo boy. I can get some diplomacy if I want, so what, they have Friendship and Affect Mind.

 

if you have Power of the Jedi book, read the parts in there on how to really play a Jedi.

better than a soldier?
not likely, considering soldiers have a lot more versatility with their weapons and gain more feats

more convincing than a noble?
not really, they may have an edge when needed (though they can't use it all the time), but they don't have all the accesses that a noble does.

more versatile than a Fringer?
not on your life. Fringers are a wonder with their skills, what do Jedi get to do? split their skill points between normal and Force skills. this means they're going to be either weak in one set or mediocre in both. a Fringer can just be good at what he does.

Stronger use of Force Points?
anyone who takes Force-Sensitive gets the stronger use of Force Points. not just Jedi. not all Force-users are Jedi.

"And don't go telling me that Jedi have to be so careful with their powers that it balances out. Not a chance. I've played a Jedi character once, everything had a simple Force solution. It's REALLY disheartening. My Soldier (a slugthrower user) right now is excellent at Treat Injury. Big deal, my force-using pals can just use Heal Self or Heal Another. Hoo boy. I can get some diplomacy if I want, so what, they have Friendship and Affect Mind."

you're playing with the wrong crowd if everything has a "Force solution." if you run about using your powers without consequence then you are doing the same thing as being allowed to play a CN Paladin. there are roleplay restrictions on Jedi because they have to be. you want to be a non-Jedi, don't be a Jedi.

 

Definately sounds like a Role-playing problem.

Could be player-based, could be GM based.

Jedi are SUPPOSED to adhere to a code that keeps them from wantonly using the force to invade people's minds or affect their actions. Any player that started using Affect Mind to too great an extent in my game would find Dark Side Points mounting up.

 

Not exactly what I meant. I'm not talking about wanton disregard for the Jedi Code, I'm talking about everything that could have required a crafty solution.

For example:

My party and I are taking over a freighter. The remaining enemy are holed up in the bridge, we need something to distract them....we have two options...:

1. Search the ship for something we could use to distract the enemy, fashion a battle plan, and execute the idea well.

2. Have our Jedi send in an illusion. Woohoo.


Or, we really need to get past this door guard. It's for the sake of saving the galaxy, and he won't let us pass. We could...

1. Try having our charismatic Noble convince him to let us by, using all his/her diplomacy skill.

2. Have our Jedi use Affect Mind or Friendship. Woohoo.

Again, when an NPC character is badly hurt, and we need to save his life. We could...

1. Try having our Soldier, who has taken the Skill Emphasis (Treat Injury) feat, and is maxed out for his level in the skill, attempt to treat him...

2. Have our Jedi use Heal Another. Woohoo.

In all of these example I think the Jedi are using their abilities within the Jedi Code, and they're perfectly reasonable thinking to use their powers here.

Or, worse, when there turn out to be arguments among players, and it comes down to player vs player matches, Jedi always have the upper hand. They just dissipate energy, and whoop-de-doo, looks like they're the best fighters, too! Sure, I can use slugthrowers (my current character does), but does 2d8 match up to a Jedi's 4d8-7d8 on a lightsaber? Not a chance.

The problem is, Jedi seem to be uber-characters. They need a weakness. JEDI HAVE NO WEAKNESSES. Or very few weaknesses. They have excellent saving throws for the most part, they get high vitality, their lightsabers do insane damage, and they have a cornucopia of versatile, easy-to-use force skills.

Basically, I just want the Jedi to have a weakness, like every other class...

Soldier: Low will. Not a good diplomat. Good at fighting.

Scout: Low will. Not a good diplomat. Good at fighting.

Fringer: Versatile, but not very good at any one thing. Okay fighters.

Noble: Good diplomats. High Will. Horrible fighters.

Tech Specialist: Special weapon creation. Bad at fighting/diplomacy.

Force Adept: Extremely versatile, tons of great force skills. Less deadly than a Jedi, lacks an insanely-powered lightsaber.

Then, we have...

Jedi: Extremely versatile, with a ton of great force skills, Great at fighting, excellent at diplomacy, good saving throws.


Does anyone see my point? I want the Jedi to have a weakness. Characters NEED weaknesses.

 

Case by case...

My party and I are taking over a freighter. The remaining enemy are holed up in the bridge, we need something to distract them....we have two options...:

1. Search the ship for something we could use to distract the enemy, fashion a battle plan, and execute the idea well.

2. Have our Jedi send in an illusion. Woohoo.

And then the enemies shoot hte illusion, dispelling it and the party is back in the same situation that they were before...


Or, we really need to get past this door guard. It's for the sake of saving the galaxy, and he won't let us pass. We could...

1. Try having our charismatic Noble convince him to let us by, using all his/her diplomacy skill.

2. Have our Jedi use Affect Mind or Friendship. Woohoo.

Door guard gets a saving throw versus Affect Mind. Both Diplomacy (Noble) and Friendship (Jedi) work in equal manners (basically a way for Guardians to have Diplomacy as a class skill) but atthe cost of vitality -- not a great trade-off if you need to be involved in combat shortly thereafter...

Again, when an NPC character is badly hurt, and we need to save his life. We could...

1. Try having our Soldier, who has taken the Skill Emphasis (Treat Injury) feat, and is maxed out for his level in the skill, attempt to treat him...

2. Have our Jedi use Heal Another. Woohoo.

Depends -- are you going to be involved in combat again anytime soon? Both checks -- Treat Injury and Heal Another -- can only be used once per hour, but while Heal Another can heal more, it costs vitality. So the Jedi will be less effective in a combat medic situation...

 

The vitality drain is rarely, if ever, even a real issue. The drain is so minute for the results it produces that it barely seems to affect them at all. Or, if they're feeling really low on vitality, they could always just use Heal Self =/.

 

Depends on when someone's very injured -- after a battle or during a battle.

Depends on which character you want out of action for a FULL-ROUND action. Certainly losing vitality at that point without even being attacked isn't a good thing...

As for Heal Self -- it's still a full-round action, isn't it? So if the Jedi wants to heal him/herself the party has to wait a full round, or go on without the Jedi (which is typically not an option if the Jedi has had to use vitality for something else the previous round)...

 

Errr....isn't a full round action only 6 seconds?

 

Right -- but the game is run in rounds.

Say the Jedi uses Friendship on the guard and moves him from Unfriendly to Helpful. That costs 2 vitality points. The guard, now Helpful, moves to help the PCs. If the enemies notice this, they'll likely spring their plan into action THEN and the party will have to act THEN. No full-round actions left to heal the 2 VP, plus another *8* VP if the Jedi takes next round to "buff" (Battlemind + Enhance Ability). So, already down 10 VP without being damaged from enemies. That's slightly more than two levels worth of Consular and slightly less than two levels worth of Guardian right there (on average: 9 for Consular, 11 for Guardian).

Say the Jedi uses Heal Another on a mortally wounded NPC in the middle of combat:

a) That'll be about 6 VP (healing wound damage) without being hit by enemies, and
b) The party loses the Jedi attacking in that round (plus the Jedi can't declare Total Defense, as he's concentrating on something else at the moment).

It's all a matter of tradeoffs...

 

Looks like the villains aren't being played intelligently (GM problem) or the rules aren't followed (gamer problem), or the rules are just too darn convoluted (WotC problem).
Remember that a certain creativity can be used by the GM to restore balance. Good examples are posted.

Or, just go with WEG's d6 system.

Want to start as a jedi? Fine. for every force skill you start with, there's one less die allocated to your other stats. You can never raise stats (unless you get cyborged, which interferes with taping into the force).
or
Want to develop and learn to be a jedi? fine.
Find a teacher, or pay double for every advance. 10 skill points for your first die of Control, an another for first D of Sence, and another for Alter. You can only advance skills by 1/3 of a d per adventure/session. Without a teacher, in order to use a lightsaber, you have to spend 76 skill points, over a minimum of 7 adventures. and that's not counting developing your lightsaber skill, or finding a lightsaber in the first place. With a teacher, that's only 38 skillpoints over 7 adventures.
That's 38 or 76 skill points that everyone else in the party will use to boost Dodge, Blaster, Piloting, Knowledge, Command, Hide, and Repair skills.

 

When would any right-minded player use Friendship on a guard, when he knows perfectly well that there are other people around that will blow their cover? Our players aren't stupid. If that were the case, they would just slice/blast their way through, forgetting diplomacy altogether. In which case, the Jedi gets to showcase his/her superior fighting ability again.

Most of the time when a diplomacy/friendship/affect mind check is in order, it's for ONE person. It's rarely in a tense situation where our characters are actually in real danger.

And you people still haven't told me what a Jedi's weakness is =P. They don't seem to have any. They can be superb at a few skills if they want, or be good at almost everything. On top of this, they're also the best fighters. They also have the bane of my existence, dissipate energy.

Which brings me to another rant altogether. Dissipate Energy! I HATE THAT ABILITY! Once one of our Jedi learns Dissipate energy, fighting blaster-wielding enemies becomes a cinch for our party, and we're forced to fight Dark Jedi apprentices and the like every other corner. YAWN. Blaster action is what Star Wars is all about, with some of the major baddies wielding lightsabers. Dissipate Energy is so....frustrating.

But, anyway, I think things might be better this time. I'm thinking of making a 'Jedi Hunter' prestige class for my Soldier, if my GM approves....

*evil, maniacal laugh*

Any ideas for a Jedi Hunter prestige class? I want slugthrowers to be a part of it, considering it gives you an excuse to use the uber-cool line "Dissipate THIS!". I was thinking of boosting slugthrower damage to 3d6 and 3d8 (for a pistol and rifle) in the class, as well as temper them against certain force skills.

 

Which brings me to another rant altogether. Dissipate Energy! I HATE THAT ABILITY! Once one of our Jedi learns Dissipate energy, fighting blaster-wielding enemies becomes a cinch for our party, and we're forced to fight Dark Jedi apprentices and the like every other corner. YAWN. Blaster action is what Star Wars is all about, with some of the major baddies wielding lightsabers. Dissipate Energy is so....frustrating.

Oh, PUH-LEEEZE.

Dissipate Energy is nearly impossible for a 4th level Jedi to use consistently.

The Fortitude save is, on average, 20.5 (20) for being shot with a regular blaster pistol.

A 4th level Jedi has, what, +3? That means they will fail 80% of the time. Even a 20th level Jedi maxes out at +11, right? So they will fail 45% of the time.

This doesn't include heavy blaster pistols, rifles, etc. which raises the average Fort save to 22.5 (22).

Now, those are AVERAGES. It's conceivably possible a Jedi would have to make a Fort save vs. a 34 or against a 13. But, on average, the rules are quite, quite fair...

EDIT: Plus, DE only works on wound points, not vitality...

EDIT 2: And you people still haven't told me what a Jedi's weakness is =P. They don't seem to have any. They can be superb at a few skills if they want, or be good at almost everything. On top of this, they're also the best fighters. They also have the bane of my existence, dissipate energy.

- Being forced into situations. Requiring to help those in need means enemies can maneuver them more easily.
- Dark Side Points for incorrect application of Force or will-bending.
- Role-playing handicapping.

There are plenty of weaknesses for Jedi. I'm just not sure you're liking the answers...

 

the biggest weakness of the Jedi is that very few people seem able to accept their limitations and play one correctly.

you illustrate this point very well. your argument has now become your own answer.

 

First of all, YES, I understand what you mean about roleplaying restrictions. The reason I'm 'answering my own questions' is because I'm right. Jedi have so many opportunities to be both good and versatile. Especially in our group, when one PC almost avoided getting a DSP for using Affect Mind on ME.

Now...

Hold on a second. Did I misunderstand you about Dissipate Energy? I'm reading the ability right now...how would the average Fortitude saving throw for a blaster pistol (3d6, or 10.5 (10) damage average).

That would set the Fortitude saving throw at 10. Even for a 4th level Jedi Guardian, (+4 Fortitude, usually at least a +1 con, so +5 total). That puts it at a 3/4 chance of dissipating.

Even for a blaster rifle, the average DC would only be 13. At around Level 7, that becomes easy as pie, too.

Now, the major part I'm confused about...

You say it only blocks wound point damage? As in, A character with:

72 VP/14 WP who gets hit for 12 damage can't dissipate energy?

Even if this is the case, Jedi are sooo bolstered by this ability. Look at this situation:

My 7th level Soldier is fighting another PC (hypothetical situation), a 7th level Jedi Guardian. I'm using a Blaster Rifle, he's using a Lightsaber.

Let's say that, by twist of fate, I'm winning the fight, and he gets down to 0/14. I fire my blaster rifle at him. He attempts to Dissipate Energy. On average, my rifle will do 13 damage. If it penetrates his defense (with all his lightsaber bonuses), he gets to attempt a Fortitude saving throw of 13. He has a +5 minimum, probably +6 with CON. So, he has a 13/20 chance of blocking it. He does. His vitality is now 7/14. The cycle continues, and he kills me.

Now, it says here... "If the saving throw fails, you take full damage.".

Does this mean that they take the maximum possible damage? Because if that's the case, I can see the justification of Dissipate Energy.

 

Hey, what about multiple shots on the same target? You know, I can make a human 1st level soldier with autofire or have a pair of blaster pistols. That's a first level chump with 3 shots a round. Dissipate that!
You want weakness? The Jedi Guardian starts off with less skill points than just about anyone. When he has to use those skill points for both force powers and skills, he's not as versitile as you think.
How about a minder? A jedi has someone to answer to at the end of the day. No other class has that. And there is an optional rule that a jedi can't gain jedi levels if the master isn't around or isn't willing to teach.
You know whats even better than dealing with a jedi? Blowing up or stealing thier weapon. Pay a ten year old orphan to swipe his lightsaber in a market somewhere. See how much trouble they get in.

 

Thank you, Tremaniac, an answer I can use...

Yep, that's what I always suspected...I have to just use my out-of-character cunning to get rid of/compete with those pesky Jedi.

Yes, at the earlier levels, Soldiers rule. But, it just seems that, later on, they get so much weaker.

Hah...I can't wait to attempt to pop a few slugs into the next Jedi's lightsaber I see... (14 Dex, +3 base attack...enemy defense probably 15...so...DC 20? That'll be a bit hard...).

Anyways, nobody answered my question on Dissipate Energy. Also, I'd like to send my 'Jedi Hunter' Prestige class to someone over AIM, if they'd be willing to post their AIM on this board, I'll IM you.

Thanks .

 

Whoops, I guess it would help if I included my AIM. It's SporkOracle.

Now then...

Let's say I use multifire and hit a Jedi Knight twice. Let's say the first shot does 11 damage and the second does 9. Does he roll a saving throw of 11, then a saving throw of 9, or does he roll a saving throw of 20? Because that makes a huge difference . IMing me would make it all so much easier, actually...

 

You know, it's just this kind of convoluted rule structure that makes d6 system so enjoyable.

</evil trolling about d6 system>

You know, the GM can have the bad guys steal the lightsabers. Another one is for the "innocent orphan" to beg to tag along with the party because he's escaping from child abuse, and he has a special pet. Needless to say, the pet is an isalmyri from Timothy Zahn's book which blocks force powers. The kid hangs around next to the soldiers until the fight, when he runs up so be with teh jedi, and then blocks their powers. The isalmyri is hidded in the kid's backpack, so the Jedi don't know the source of the interference with communing with the force.

"I use 'Friends' on the guard."
GM rolls saving throw. "The guard smiles as you approach. Kid runs up to ride on the jedi's cloaktails. "Suddenly the guard looks confused and is pointing his blaster on you. Guess he made his save afterall."

Isalmyri are a great way to bring down Force-heavy jedi.

 

Errr...I was just looking through the site, and I looked at the revised rules.

Did any of you take a look at the uncorrected version of Dissipate Energy? Well, anyway, I'll have a good time telling my friends about the revised rules....it was so ungodly strong, they'll die without being able to use it...hah!

 

Setting blasters to stun also works wonders on Jedi. They can't deflect it with their lightsabers, and they can't dissipate it with Dissipate Energy (because it doesn't deal damage.)

And, if you play it as written, Jedi are hosed whether they make their save or not. WotC hasn't fixed this problem (yet), but the folks at SWRPGNetwork came up with some suggestions, which can be found in the FAQ. They go like this; pick which one works best for your group:

Aren?t stun settings overpowered? It seems like you?re guaranteed to stun a 20th level Jedi Master or a Krayt dragon just by tossing a stun grenade at it.
The designers are evaluating this very question. If you feel the stun rules are really broken, you might try one of these house rules:
a) If you beat the Fort DC by 10+, you're unaffected by the stun attempt.
b) If you beat the Fort DC by 5+, you?re unaffected by the stun attempt.
c) If you beat the Fort DC at all, you're unaffected by the stun attempt.
d) As per "c" but you also take 1/3 the normal damage for that weapon (this is basically a re-hash of the OCR version).
e) The most radical departure is treating stun damage like subdual damage from D&D. Use the normal damage rating for the weapon (use 4d6+1 for a stun grenade, 2d6 for a stun baton). Track stun damage separately from VP/WP. If the stun damage ever exceeds your VP, you have to make a Fort save as per the normal stun rules. If the stun damage ever exceeds your VP+WP, you're unconscious. You heal stun damage at the same rate as VP (so, every hour, a 5th level character gains 5 VP and removes 5 stun damage points).
f) If you beat the Fort DC, you're unaffected, but if you fail you are unconscious (not knocked out) for 1d4+1 rounds. (This version is used in the Living Force campaign, and it is highly recommended because it balances the removal of the "stunned for 1 round" effect with increasing the penalty for failure from "knocked out" to "unconscious.")
Of these, C and F are the easiest to use, with A and B being close behind. D and E are more complicated but still workable. If you?d like to share your observations on these variants, send an e-mail to the_hutt@wizardsmoderator.com and let us know which seems to work best.

JD
JDWiker.com

 

Wait...I'm looking at the stats for 'Stun Grenade' right now.

So, assuming they pass the Fortitude save (not too difficult), they're still 'Stunned' for 1 round?

So, let me paint a hypothetic situation here. My friend's 7th level Jedi Guardian has had a bit of an argument with my 5th level Soldier/2nd level Jedi Hunter. He attempts to use a Force ability to disarm me, and at the same time, I throw a Stun grenade his direction. Let's say I get the initiative. I use my Ranged attack bonus for as the attack roll, and then, if I hit, he makes a saving throw. Let's say he rolls 17. He succeeds the save. He is still 'Stunned' for one round. In this one round, would I have enough time to pick up his lightsaber and blast it to oblivion? Or to pick up his lightsaber and put it in my backpack?

I'm asking this because I had to be a bit more...er...forceful last time. He warned me that the lightsaber would be coming out, so I, quick as lightning (Quick Draw), whipped out a pistol, aimed at his lightsaber, and blast it pieces with a lucky hit. He wasn't too happy. Still, I disarmed him, eh? ;p.

 

Well, since you removed his lightsaber from the equation, what are his options? Diplomacy? Not likely as you've got a blaster pointed his way. He could end up trying the force on you, so try this trick from the Anarchy Skywalkin school of bastardliness.
Duct tape! If you can be reasonably prepared, duct tape the weapon to your hand. Hard to get it with force grip if you've got your own "force grip" on it.
Here's one from Kietels school of hard knocks.
Robes are flamible. Since jedi don't get armor proficiancy, and most of them stick with the traditional jedi robes, toss a jerry can of gas on them. Then blast away. Blaster damage + fire damage = Wow! Plus he may have to take time out of his busy attacking schedule to put himself out. Free attacks of opportunity.
And from my own observations of d20 games.
Ask your GM if you can get the Room Broom feat from Darwins World. That way you don't draw attacks of opportunity when the jedi closes to melee with his lightsaber and you shoot him.

 

Kyle,

Now it is obvious that I don't know what kind of game your are playing or what kind of characters you are running, but I have to agree with the assessment that your problem seems to be a roleplaying one.

I could offer you some in-game suggestions as well, but they follow Dp's observations and you appear to be resistant to those anyway.

It seems that you are less concerned about Jedi as characters, and more concerned about finding some "magic bullet" to use against your friends who happen tro play Jedi.

What kind of game are you playing where you are consatntly fighting among each other?

No Jedi character I know would go around yelling "do what I say or the lightsaber comes out." Again, roleplaying issue.. The light saber is not solely a tool of intimidation.

There are ample examples of game mechanics that can be used to limit a Jedi, but the most important one is understanding the character.

 

So, assuming they pass the Fortitude save (not too difficult), they're still 'Stunned' for 1 round?

Yes. Sadly, when we wrote this rule, we were thinking that people would play like they were in the movies. That is: stunned opponent = no longer a threat. What we didn't grasp was that so many players would think nothing of stunning an opponent, then strolling up and hacking the stunned opponent to death.

So, let me paint a hypothetic situation here. My friend's 7th level Jedi Guardian has had a bit of an argument with my 5th level Soldier/2nd level Jedi Hunter. He attempts to use a Force ability to disarm me, and at the same time, I throw a Stun grenade his direction. Let's say I get the initiative. I use my Ranged attack bonus for as the attack roll, and then, if I hit, he makes a saving throw. Let's say he rolls 17. He succeeds the save. He is still 'Stunned' for one round. In this one round, would I have enough time to pick up his lightsaber and blast it to oblivion? Or to pick up his lightsaber and put it in my backpack?

Right again. The reason that the current rule is such a problem is that it's hardly ever a 1-on-1 fight situation: it's more like four heroes up against a single big baddie. So even if you didn't have time to go pick up his lightsaber, someone else in your group would.

I *highly* recommend that every group adapt whichever of the proposed fixes works best for them.

JD
JDWiker.com

 

-Kyle-Katarn-

re: Dissipate Energy. One of the earliest errata fixes was the Fort save for Dissipate Energy was 10 + the Damage Inflicted, not just the Damage Inflicted. Changes things, eh?